Talk:Necromancer (5e Class)

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feedback: 1 Personally i would say have them choose an archetype at level one like the warlock and maybe a secondary choice at third level? 2 give them different stat block depending on the archetype. This would be very different from other classes but do you think that the necro-warrior and undead beastmaster should both have the same weapon proficiencies and hit dice?? --216.56.162.2 09:52, 8 March 2016 (MST)

OK, so would that be a pick of 2 archetypes from the same list, or 1 archetype from two different lists? --Kydo (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2016 (MST)

Who’s idea was it to make this a class this is an ARCANE TRADITION that already is covered in the 5e player handbook under Wizard as an archetype. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Darth Vader (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

This class was created by Kydo, but as he said below, it was created because of repeated requests from other users. This isn't even the only necromancer class; see the disambiguation page "necromancer." I guess people feel like the PHB archetype is too restrictive? — Geodude (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 19:03, 3 July 2018 (MDT)

To be fair, that Arcane Tradition is called School of Necromancy, not Necromancer. Semnatics but tis a difference none-the-less. I don't know about the restrictiveness of the subclass for wizard but I will say it doesn't inspire that dark, grim nature that is (attempted) captured here. There's a bit more focus on the undead aspects for this too. 3.5e did similar with WotC supplemental products, so we've simply sped up the process of getting a true necromancer class. Cheers! BigShotFancyMan (talk) 19:44, 3 July 2018 (MDT)

So what's the difference between someone who practices necromancy, and a necromancer? Oh right, nothing. That's the literal definition.

Literal definition? I think necromancy is the practice of something and a necromancer is someone who uses necromancy. Just being literal though. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:06, 11 October 2018 (MDT)

1 archetype from 2 lists

I aint doin' this for my health

This class was made based on repeated requests from other users. I originally had no intent in creating a dedicated necromancer class. If you are interested in this being completed, please speak up and get active. Make edits. Give suggestions. Ask questions. Be the change you wish to see in the world. My only objective was to satisfy a demand... But if the audience won't even participate in the creation of their own fanservice- on a damn wiki no less- well, I might as well just mark this abandoned so it gets decluttered with the rest of the wasted words. --Kydo (talk) 03:48, 14 September 2016 (MDT)

Good, delete it then. This trash won't be missed.

Thanks so much for sharing your opinion. Do you have any ideas that could improve this page from "trash"? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:06, 11 October 2018 (MDT)

At least read the work done before hijacking the page to create a single, exclusively restrictive vision of the subject material. The point of a class is to cover a fictional archetype as completely as possible. "Guy who dresses like the grim reaper and otherwise functions as a beastmaster" is thoroughly narrow. --Kydo (talk) 01:40, 3 February 2017 (MST)

Suggestions for Balance and other inquiries

I'm currently playing a Necromancer in my DM's campaign. I'm level 11 at the moment and I went with the Undertaker Occult. There are a couple of things that I'm either confused about or feel need to change. One big thing is the Animate Major Undead. I think that it would work better if the challenge rating went up to 11 or 12 at level 19 or 20. It might be prudent to include dragons as well in the list of animatables; I don't see any real reason not to. Also, rather than making this a single companion that will lose the need to be refreshed at level 15, this would be much more interesting as simply an improvement of the regular Animate Undead without the limit "You can only control one major undead at a time." I understand the major problem with this is the difficulty in players and DM's keeping up with a large number of undead pets, but I still feel that it would be a worthwhile change to the class. Soul Harvest, Spontaneous Unburial, and Animate Major Undead are the key points in this class that make it worth using compared to Wizard Necromancer or Death Domain Cleric, especially when considering that Necromancer only gains one spell per level and can't learn more from other players. Without a fully functional Animate Major Undead, the Necromancer class feels dramatically underpowered. Removing the "In addition, the major undead now lasts until its hit points reach 0." would help make this change more balanced.

Thanks for all your work in making the class so far! Vulgaris Magistralis (talk) 09:16, 15 December 2017 (MST)

The class would have to have its capstone feature removed for the final Animate Major Undead improvement which is sorta iffy. CR 9 dragons give you a free aoe that deals more damage than a 7th level spell according to the DMG(12d6 damage on a 7th level spell versus 12d8/10d10 damage breath) every 3 rounds so I am against adding dragons.

I also agree that the undertaker subclass needs some changes as I still believe that Undead Resolve is really weak and needs to be replaced or reworked. I slightly buffed Lord of the Undead so it is stronger at later levels to partially accommodate for this. But I do not agree about the power level of the class needs to be buffed as it is very much comparable to the School of Necromancy Wizard(see Understanding Bounded Accuracy (5e Guideline) for why the undertaker boosting AC is so strong) and you get a very strong undead through Animate Major Undead. You also learn spells from the wizard spell list compared to the sorcerer spell list and you can summon undead without the need for a body.--Blobby383b (talk) 19:04, 15 December 2017 (MST)

Well balanced edits Blobby, quick question though, what is the difference in the way you tag abilities vs how they were?

This is still my favorite thing on the wiki (probably bias though >.<)

Vulgaris did you check out my test play way at the bottom? While I'd love to include dragons myself I feel the current Animate Major is balanced. When this thing starts raising dead, esp as an undertaker, its really good at what it does. With the change to Séance allowing multiple uses, that should help with level 20 panache. I'd say provide input on at level 20 to really see if raising the CR bar is necessary. The number of undead to track I don't find an issue at all. They usually go down in 2-4 hits, or much faster in a Fireball. When buffing the Core class, it very important to keep in mind the subclasses. I intended the core to be sort of cool features and the subclasses to provide the power, building upon bones (hehe) of the necromancer. I won't be DMing high level characters any time soon and my group doesn't really get chances to play test so I'll be leaning on community input. THanks for your help on this. Any counter points, bring them up. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:41, 18 December 2017 (MST)

Well explained bigshot. Also, I am just linking to the SRD on the wiki when I tag ability scores and conditions. Plus, it is much easier to use and remember {{5c|Poisoned}} than [[5e SRD:Conditions#Poisoned|poison]] as they link to the same place, see poisoned and poison.--Blobby383b (talk) 11:50, 18 December 2017 (MST)

Thanks! and great point about it be easier. I don't usually wikify things but when I do I'm going to have to remember the easier way of things. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:17, 18 December 2017 (MST)

Thanks for the responses, folks! "They usually go down in 2-4 hits, or much faster in a Fireball." That's exactly my problem with the raising normal undead focus. I meant it would be difficult to track several different types of undead if Animate Major Undead were used on several different types of creatures. The basic undead are so weak that they're more of a bonus than an actual focus (summoning them without bodies is a very nice perk of the class, though). The AC increase is nice, but throw any sort of AOE magic attack at them and they're toast. The Animate Major Undead feature is what makes the class interesting to me, actually being able to make minions of defeated foes, instead of just generic skellies and zombos. The major undead are balanced as they lose all of their immunities and resistances when they're resurrected, along with any spellcasting ability. Especially with the CR limit, it doesn't seem overpowered so far. I do like the edits that I noticed were made so far, you're doing good work. I also agree on buffing/changing the Undead Resolve feature. I see what you're both saying about the dragons, I get it's probably best to leave them out. But, the major undead lasting until 0 hitpoints doesn't seem like a capstone feature at all. First of all, it's only one undead, which accounts for half of a 3rd tier spellslot. Considering that at level 20, if a necromancer uses all of their tier 3 and higher spell slots for undead, they can animate 98 undead, getting to keep one without recasting the spell feels underwhelming. Especially when the 7th tier spell Finger of Death does the same thing. It would only really be particularly useful (overpowered, in my opinion) if it applied to numerous major undead, which is why I don't think they should both exist in the class. Also, I didn't notice any particular change to Seance. Did I miss something or was it made a while ago or is it just a planned change?

I'm going to get a chance to try it out at level 20 next month and I'll see how it functions there. I'll be sure to post the results after.

I still like the idea of lots of major undead, but to compromise, maybe increase the CR cap to 12 at level 19. Also, instead of raising a single undead of any CR under 12, you can raise one major undead with a CR equal to or lower than the limit. But, you can summon multiple undead if the highest CR is at least 2 lower than the limit. Essentially, take the strongest major undead you have raised and subtract their CR from the limit. The number you have left is the total number of major undead you may raise (with the exception of 0 from a creature which is equal to the limit). For example, with an assumed limit of 12, if you have any undead of CR 12 or 11, you can only have 1. If your strongest undead is CR 10, you could have 2 major undead of CR 10 and below. If your strongest undead is CR 4, you could have 8 undead of CR 4 and below. That seems kind of complicated though, so it might not be the best solution.

I just want to point out that this is also one of my favorite pages on the site, always been a fan of minion controllers and I'm glad for everything that you've done for it so far and that you keep working on it. Vulgaris Magistralis (talk) 21:02, 21 December 2017 (MST)

Thanks for the kind words, they resonate with me very much. In regards to Animate Major Undead (AMU) CR cap raised to 12 at level 19, test play it before changing it because at level 19 you have many spell slots to raise undead with. Every spell slot beyond 3rd gives +2 undead. If your undertaker, I think I unintentionally OP'd the feature that gives raises an undead every time you raise one. Effectively this doubles the undead raised and I was aiming for 1 extra per "casting". None the less my point is, at level 19, you are surely to overwhelm an adversary. Xanather's Guide to Everything is an amazing tool for complex encounters and it says that 5-6 CR 4 is a good encounter for level 20 party (iirc, don't have the book on me). I call shaningans, but it's what it says. Between the Necro, AMU, and minions/spells I think things are good.

Second, the splitting of CR amongst undead to create more undead. This was a feature at some point. I removed it eventually because it was a cumbersome and muddy feature, imo. In line with above comments, plenty of undead are being raised, and current undertaker writing, too many possibly. Blobby, your thoughts if current level 6 undertaker feature would be granting too many undead?

Last, I'm not close-minded to suggestions. Please bring ideas. I spent a week on this? lol and continue to follow up and love hearing community ideas. I wish WotC would have done something as flavorful and useful as this. Cheers BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:42, 22 December 2017 (MST)

I wanted to add, your undead (as an undertaker) are not joke at level 19 (use 20 for easy math). They get +6 & +20 = +26 hp, and +6 AC. No vulnerabilities and resist necrotic damage. Sure Fireball still hurts, but I think they have a chance to survive it now. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:09, 22 December 2017 (MST)

Test play sounds fair before making any major changes; I'll check it out next month and see how it works. I also call shenanigans on Xanather's Guide, lol, that definitely doesn't sound right. At level 10 as a necromancer I killed 8 CR 4 creatures in one turn. Yes, I used fireball, but there's no way that 5-6 would take on a whole party of level 20's. On the other hand, my DM does give us some op stuff every now and then, so I could be trying to get the class to match up to that. The total number of undead I calculated is using every spell slot 3rd tier and up, which there's no way anyone would actually do that, right? The extra undead provided by the Undertaker feature is only 1 per casting (at least that's how I had understood it, I can see how it could be read to summon literally double the number, which would be huge since that would mean a total of almost 200. I personally think that would be awesome, but definitely overpowered. I'll change the wording on the main page to communicate that.), so it functions almost the same as Undead Thralls, but the spell itself allows for extra, "When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you animate or reassert control over two additional Undead creatures for each slot above 3rd." https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Animate%20Dead#content

I can see, depending on the DM, necromancer is probably pretty balanced. Still needs a few changes, imo, but more balanced than I'm seeing it in my campaign due to the op nature of the world. I do think that some sort of feature to at least allow for a couple of major undead would be a nice addition. Maybe raise the number you can control at level 19 instead of the CR?

I did notice the change to Seance after rereading it today. I think it's pretty balanced now.

Finally, I think the Undead Resolve feature might work better as an attack increase for your undead. The Wizard Necromancer adds proficiency bonus to weapon damage rolls as part of Undead Thralls. Since the undead have such low accuracy, maybe the 10th level Undertaker feature could add proficiency bonus both to attack rolls and damage rolls? Vulgaris Magistralis (talk) 10:14, 22 December 2017 (MST)

I made changes based on the attack bonus and ac bonus for undertaker. I'm skeptical because I don't want to variant the wizard. A lot of homebrews on the site rehash a class or homebrew class and hardly feel different. Its the same with minor changes. I don't think this change with give a Wizard feel, but something to keep in mind as part of my goal, my unique classes, not similar or repetitive content.
I'm gonna pocket increasing the number of AMU to 2 at level 19 until I can look at XGE. The book mentions that 5e is designed to not need magical items, so it's possible that 6 CR 4 (again, iirc) could challenge group of level 20. But I'll see what we can do to gain bonus AMU. I've got an idea brewing, but I want to reference XGE before hashing it out. Thanks for fixing that phrasing too. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:48, 22 December 2017 (MST)

I believe the CR amount for an encounter in the DMG assumes you get into several encounters of that difficulty when you at that level, for example a 4 person party will encounter 3/maybe 4 groups of 5-6 CR 4 creatures in a single day as most campaigns do multiple encounters unless they have one massive fight. But that is besides the point, now onto the class. I am liking all the changes to undertaker subclass as it now feels like it has a smoother progression in its power level and doesn't summon double the amount of undead. I don't think I have anything else to say about the class until it is play tested at higher level (15/17/20 would work), or another issue is brought up as the class is looking pretty good.--Blobby383b (talk) 15:43, 22 December 2017 (MST)

I looked it up in XGE and it was saying 4 CR 4 monsters per character. sorry for any confusion. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 20:21, 22 December 2017 (MST)

That makes more sense, also how is XGtE? Is it what you were expecting?--Blobby383b (talk) 20:33, 22 December 2017 (MST)

it's cute. a bunch of content but nothing that said you need this. I take that as how I've grown as DM though. It's nice to have official content to build from as well from homebrew. But no, I was thinking some great clarity and dynamic sub-classes. I still use it for niche things though. Have you started making traps with it? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 00:29, 23 December 2017 (MST)

Not yet, but I have a few unique ideas. When I finally get around to making them, I will probably end up making a bunch. I think the book is a great resource and will be situational useful, but I don't see myself using it very often other than to look up specific things on a new subclass, spell, or downtime rule. Besides that, I believe there are better resources for things like random encounters, names, and other things online.--Blobby383b (talk) 12:18, 23 December 2017 (MST)

I honestly feel like Seance should start at a lower level. I love that ability, and I don't think somewhat transferring consciousness into a lowly zombie would be too broken. It would be nice to have that ability earlier than level 20, perhaps if specified that it could only be used against undead that you've raised yourself. Could even put a limit on it that increases with level. I'm testing this class tonight. Currently looking at the character sheet it seems like it's missing something and i think adding that ability in earlier would help immensely. (If you think it'd stay balanced, that is.)

I think this is where the comment ends, hopefully I clarified the feature better and for Seance I ask that you test play first. I think it is balanced currently, with 18&20 missing humph but possess flavor. I’d much rather rework 20 into a better more wow feature but again, this seems balanced. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 01:00, 10 October 2017 (MDT)

d6 HD instead of d8, or is there justification for a caster to get d8?

Grim Harvest wording should mirror Life Tap where if the feature would kill a creature, gain HP equal to the damage dealt. Speaking of Life Tap, reason for d20? It's an odd die for damage effect. Perhaps a normal d8 without pro bonus? prof bonus is another odd addition.

Complete control seems strong and what if two necromancers engage one another? Who controls what?

Is the downtime activity suppose to be like archetypes? Or is there a reason they are missing? Did you try to make this a archetype but fan-demand wanted a class from you? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:46, 27 June 2017 (MDT)

I started working on it to satisfy demand. I did a ton of research. The fans are mostly unregistered users, and none of them give a crap. I abandoned it to them. I still watch the development, but I'm waiting for someone who knows what they're doing to show that they care about the project. Until then, I just let the unregistered kids battle it out through bold edits. It doesn't look like they've changed the DT activity much though, and I think I wrote that myself. They are NOT supposed to be archetypes. I actually had a whole section about how the archetypes could be written. They blanked it. The DT activity exists to allow players of necromancers to become undead beings without making it mandatory of the class. If you're interested, the original version with research and planning can be found here. --Kydo (talk) 15:52, 27 June 2017 (MDT)

So if I did some changes or moved things around (concerning the things above, would you mind?) Check out the before and after of a 5e Chronomancer class edited. If you think what I did was too much and wouldn't want me touching this, I understand. I just bought Diablo 3 Necromancer Pack and Necros are always so cool but WotC never justifies them in my book. You made the bones, I kind of want to fill it out. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:38, 28 June 2017 (MDT)

Go for It! Do what you believe is best! If I disagree with something, I'll say so. (Or change it if it's against policy, which I doubt will be an issue) If you'd like, I'll review your work when you feel you're done. In the meantime, I'll reserve editing time for you with the in use template. One week sound good? --Kydo (talk) 22:14, 28 June 2017 (MDT)

Well, I do this at work and things are really super busy now but I will put some effort into at home too lol I think only thing I'll be missing will be archetypes. Somewhere down the road those will get attention. cheers mate. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 05:33, 29 June 2017 (MDT)

Kydo, I've got the class progression in a healthy spot (in my opinion). I am currently looking over features for balance before moving to archetype features. There's a spot below for user/community ideas to help flesh out this undead summoning class archetype features. I am feeling really good about the flavor of this so far. (I am baiting for feedback, assurance that the work is in line with original idea) EDIT: I also want to remove Roc from the monstrosities to control. CR 11 it isn't even close in power to the others nor does the flavor fit. Giants are the same way. I am going to look up options this weekend but two options aren't exactly bad. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:23, 30 June 2017 (MDT)

Done. I didn't put descriptions out of laziness but companions really don't get one so I use that to justify Control Legend Undead. Let the community take the surgical knife to it :) BigShotFancyMan (talk) 22:01, 2 July 2017 (MDT)

Hello, BigShotFancyMan, thanks for your suggestions with the Primal Fighter (5e Class). I would like to explain a few things about this class that need to be balanced or clarified. Add a range to Necromancer Master, is it 5ft or is a ranged touch attack with Xft. range? Add names to all the archetypes features. As a general rule of thumb, I believe you should not limit the classes you can multiclass into like how it is with you are not another spellcasting class. Increase the damage the Vampire takes from sunlight and holy objects to a much higher amount like 2d10 or 2d8. Although the damage you take shouldn't be the correct amount of damage a vampire takes, see 5e SRD:Vampire for reference. Also add "While in sunlight, it has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks." to the Vampire. The Lich isn't correct according to 5e SRD:Lich, but it sort of works? I like the work you have done on this class, good job.--Blobby383b (talk) 12:46, 10 July 2017 (MDT)

Hey Blobby, thanks for looking it over and the encouragement. I admit I didn't name them out of time. Work is very busy and it's when I work on this stuff. The downtime activities (Lich, Vampire) I didn't even bother balancing so I promise there is something unnatural. I don't like multiclass restrictions, I merely left it as the OPs original idea. I will definitely consider all these things when I polish it up, especially that range (can't believe the oversight). Great job on the Primal Fighter too! BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:38, 11 July 2017 (MDT)

Glad to help, also don't be too worried about not having time currently to work on this, the class does not need to be completed all at once and we all have different schedules. Besides that, I will be around for a second glance later, good luck with the class and all your other endeavors. --Blobby383b (talk) 17:23, 11 July 2017 (MDT)

Hey BigShotFancyMan, I went through the class more thoroughly this time and made a few minor edits. I have a few notes about what the class could do better that include:

• I believe that having full spellcasting and up to a CR 6 creature at 7th level for the Animate Major Undead feature is completely broken because your entire party is expected to be able to fight only 1 CR 7 creature at 7th level. I would suggest the reducing of the CR's of the creatures to a much lower level(3/5/8 or even lower).
• In that same sense, the feature Control Legendary Undead is unbalanced because you basically have a creature that is as powerful as the encounter that your entire party is expected to handle, I would suggest replacing this feature with something else after having a second look at it
• For the archetypes, all the features need names
• The 2nd level feature of the Undertaker archetype may need to be changed, because if you are in a good aligned party then the feature will be next to useless, while if you are in an evil aligned party, the feature will be useful, but will still rarely happen. I recommend changing it to all Wisdom saving throws for better consistency.
• The 6th level feature of the Undertaker archetype should be changed to undead you raise through spells(the feature is overpowered on your other class features, if you want it to affect them, I would suggest reducing the power level of the feature)
• The 14th level feature of the Undertaker archetype will be a pain for players and DM's to constantly keep track of what vulnerabilities your undead creatures have(having to keep track of multiple creatures is more than enough of a pain in the butt), could you just change it to 3x your proficiency bonus in bonus health?
• The 6th level feature of the Reaper archetype, does way too much extra damage (13.5 ) at 18th level. Just adding around 4.5 damage to certain spells' damage rolls is incredibly strong
• The 14th level feature of the Reaper archetype breaks the rules for conventional spell casting with casting spells at 1 higher level and is very strong, you could change it to creatures have disadvantage on saving throws from your necromancy spells or just to the DC of your spells is increase by one
• Then there is the down time activities which we can get to another time

I am willing to talk about why I thought these changes need to be made in greater detail if needed.--Blobby383b (talk) 22:22, 20 August 2017 (MDT)

Hey Blobby383b, thanks for the input. There's some really good points here and some others I'm not so sure hit the mark. I'll try to hit on each one though.

Your first two bullets are absolutely correct about the features being OP and I only kept with the original idea. I kind of rushed through to polish the class and balanced the things I thought easy to balance. These two, I knew/know I had to come back to.

I don't see an issue with the Wisdom advantage vs Turn Undead. I wanted something to resonate with an undertaker but not be strong. Why do you think it should affect all Wisdom saves (at level 2)? Also, I don't think party alignment has any effect of how useful this is. I think if you are playing this class, there's a campaign in mind or the DM won't allow or the DM will incorporate things for the class.

I can see changing the 6th level feature to only include skeletons and zombies, which I think is more than fair. Thoughts?

I can reword it to say undead you control. I think that is a blanket effect that takes care of it. I don't see it being a pain for anyone really. Yes, DMs track many things, but this is simply the party's undead, they have no vulnerabilities. check. your alternative is a good idea, probably a good substitute. Just a preference thing maybe?

I'm not sure you understand the extra d8. It's not an extra d8 per spell level, or d8 for every die rolled. It is one die, one die only, added to the overall damage of the spell. Still too strong in your opinion?

Good point, and I propose changing it to schools of necromancy. I've looked through and MOST not all, don't scale extra damage directly. There's extra undead summoned and A LOT of spells that don't scale so I think that is a fair thing to do. It is probably my original intent to do that and messed up too.

I never touched the DTA. I don't like them but this is not my creation. So, I left them alone as the creator wants.

BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:32, 23 August 2017 (MDT)

Blobby383b, check out the "rework" of things. Go easy on me, I feeling really good and proud of what I've done with things. I'm wanting to get the tags of this page, what's left in your opinion? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:39, 31 August 2017 (MDT)

I am back, and the class is in great shape. I do have one question and one concern left after looking at the class (also sorry I did not come back sooner to give more feedback life happened). There should probably be a maximum number of souls you can acquire for the Soul Harvest feature or you could have say 50/100/ect. souls and drain 50 hit points from a creature with Grim, I would recommend limiting the maximum number of souls to your necromancer level. Also, Animate Major Undead 11th and 15th level improvements are too powerful and need to be reduced in CR, would a CR of 7 and 10 work(I am not sure of the exact point it would be balanced at, and the feature would still be powerful even with the reduction in CR)? There may be a few more minor things that could be touched up, but the class looks finished and has come a long way from back when it was a bunch of random ideas for features for the class.--Blobby383b (talk) 21:23, 10 September 2017 (MDT)

Yay! I was curious where you were at. A maximum number of souls was originally there. The class sees a lot of anon edits and abuse. I will fix to what I had. Thanks for pointing it out. (It's pretty frustrating, you should see a lot of the edits randoms are making)Also, I don't think it's necessary for Soul Harvest, just Improved Soul Harvest because the class feature doesn't have anything that functions off the class feature. I've got Animate Major Undead CRs to be 3 levels lower than the character level. I can most certainly reduce it by 1 so each level the CR is 4 lower than the character level. I too am not 100% sure what's balanced with this feature. I appreciate your comments man. I showed this to my buddies and they love it. The archetypes are specific and separate. The class does what a necro wants to do. The flavoring for things works out. I don't need pats on the back but man they feel good. The class was mentioned by an admin as being locked from unconfirmed users which I thought was huge because it was included as an edit/rewrite that is good along with ones. Im very happy with and wish trolls would leave it alone lol BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:30, 11 September 2017 (MDT)

Double post, sorry. I looked at the wizard spells for summoning. Level 7 can summon CR2 elemental, level 9 can summon CR5. I'm more confident about the balance with these changes. Maybe I can NPC this class for test play. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:44, 11 September 2017 (MDT)

You deserve the praise, you pretty much reworked the entire class while keeping the core elements of what makes a necro a necro. I also have to say, good job interpreting my look at the class earlier as I was not around to help explain certain things. Finally, going forward, if you ever have any other questions or anything else you need help with, I would be happy to help.--Blobby383b (talk) 12:00, 11 September 2017 (MDT)

Oh man thanks Blobby383b. I'm happy you enjoy and think that much of it. I won't hesitate to ask for your help. Hopefully the life stuff is better for you and you can enjoy some personal stuff. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:35, 11 September 2017 (MDT)

There is no spells known column, only cantrips known. Should I just assume that you get to know only as many, spells as sorcerers based on how many you get at level 1? [User: Anonymous ] 14:22, 06 September 2017

It is similar to the wizard class, it doesn't have a Spells Known column either. The details are outlined under the spellcasting class feature description. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:02, 10 September 2017 (MDT)

Shouldn't the Spellcasting be modified then? Because the Necromancer table doesn't list a Spells Known column yet it references it.

Also, I don't understand what you mean. Because the wizard has a spellbook that they prepare spells from, while the Necromancer does not.

From what I'm reading, it seems to be saying they only ever know 3 spells. How does that work?--Alearori (talk) 15:33, 30 October 2017 (MDT)

The spellcasting is incorrect, the class gains access to wizard spells but has spellcasting like a sorcerer with no spells known table. Depending on whether you want the necromancer to have a spell book or not, the class's spellcasting should be fixed to be similar to the wizard or the sorcerer. I personally would stick with the sorcerer because the original intent of the class was to have sorcerer spellcasting and the class already has enough powerful features to make up for not knowing as many spells.--Blobby383b (talk) 21:36, 30 October 2017 (MDT)

This is my fault. When wikifying the table and descriptions, I copy pasted wizard spellcasting. I agree with Blobby that a numbers of spells known equal to a sorcerer would be fair. I don't see an issue drawing spells from the wizard spell, I think that is just coming down to people's personal preference. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:01, 31 October 2017 (MDT)

One more thing, the Undertaker's Undead Resolve references "Undead you control", but Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell, thus the Necromancer can't learn it til 5th level. How do you get a Undead under your control? Or is this a dead feature til 5th level? --Alearori (talk) 10:35, 31 October 2017 (MDT)

Please, keep the questions coming. You are certainly finding oversights. I think I'm going to switch level 10 with level 3 feature. I'm sure Blobby with comment if it isn't balanced :p BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:37, 31 October 2017 (MDT)

So about Soul Harvest, does that include the creatures that the Necromancer's minions kill? Because "you" is very exclusive.

And Spontaneous Unburial implies you don't need to choose a corpse, right? And it supposed to say "use" a spellslot, right? Or is it implying something happened to that spellslot?

And not a question, but Animate Major Undead should also disable Legendary Actions, Legendary Traits, and Lair Actions. Just in case there's some kind of Homebrew creature with those at CR 9 and below.

Also, Grim doesn't specify the conditions of when the saving throw will happen such as at the start of that creature's turn or etc. So it seems to imply it's always on or off. Something needs to be added there.

Pretty sure that's it, from my perspective. --Alearori (talk) 13:32, 31 October 2017 (MDT)

I think Alearori's questions need to be adressed, I have the same questions and there isnt a clear answer for them.

Especially the borders of Soul Harvest and Spontaneous Unburial are pretty unclear.

Soul Harvest implies that you in person need to deliver the killing blow and Spontanious unburial seems to imply that you dont need a corpse and that undead just come out of the ground even tho it mentions that it functions as just a animate dead spell --Mr.Storms (talk) 03:17, 1 May 2018 (MDT)

Soul Harvest implies that you in person need to deliver the killing blow and Spontanious unburial seems to imply that you dont need a corpse and that undead just come out of the ground even tho it mentions that it functions as just a animate dead spell --Mr.Storms (talk) 03:17, 1 May 2018 (MDT)

Is it intentional that the class doesn't have ritual casting? Druid, bard, Wizard and warlock have it and I feel it's appropriate for a necromancer to be casting rituals (talk) 26 February 2018

It is very appropriate for a necromancer to have ritual casting, but I don't know whether it was intentional. I am of the opinion that it should be added as well.--Blobby383b (talk) 09:22, 26 February 2018 (MST)

Correct, it was not intentional. I see no reason no to include it. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:32, 26 February 2018 (MST)

Mr. Storm, I apologize for not answering those questions. I think that undead you summon should work for Soul Harvest. I say that to make sure multiclassers can't use other summons to benefit. The nature of it should come from necromantic stuff, in my opinion. Spontaneous Unburial does not need a corpse which would be part of the otherwise noted thing, and the spellslot issue will get fixed. I think a good point is made on disabling Legendary stuff as well. Grim's saving throw is not mentioned! and it shall be as soon as I get the page unlocked (it deals with a lot of vandalism). Thanks again, there are a great deal of other issues that have needed attention, so it is definitely time to get this unlocked. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:18, 1 May 2018 (MDT)

Thanks a lot for the reply, it took a while before i noticed it because it wasnt directly underneath the reply.

I have another question about the life tap feature. I'm playing the class in a campaign and this question about life tap came up by our DM: is life tap used additional to a touch spell, for example shocking grasp, or on its own as an action? The description is pretty vague about it: "Starting at 1st level, your melee touch spells drain the life from your enemies and heal you." implies that its WITH a touch spell. "As an action, you can make a melee spell attack against a living creature," could suggest it is on its own, "using your necromancer spell attack bonus, dealing necrotic damage equal to 1d6 + your Charisma modifier on a hit." could suggest its added to a touch spell. Personally i think its used as an action instead of with a touch spell cause inflict wounds(3d10+1d6+modifier) and spells like that make you do insane damage early on and gain temporary hit points. But the description can go both ways so its a bit hard to make a decision. Thanks a lot in advance for the reply, you guys are doing great work here, i think its one of the best classes on the wiki. Its pretty visible that a lot of work went into it. Mr.Storms (talk) 03:06, 13 May 2018 (MDT)

That feature definitely needed clarifying, thanks for pointing it out. I also added limited use for some balance. Let me know how at-will vs limited effects things. Appreciate the praise for what we've done. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:42, 13 May 2018 (MDT)

I've played with the new rules yesterday and i must say that the limit feels a lot more balanced. I use a lot more cantrips now and I mainly use life-tap as a defensive option for when the enemy gets up close instead as offensive like i've used it before. So as update i think the balance works pretty good for my lvl2 character and i will keep you guys updated if i've played some more. Mr.Storms (talk) 02:10, 21 May 2018 (MDT)

Hello, BigShotFancyMan, I was talking with a friend about building a duo team between a Necromancer and an Oath Breaker paladin when something sort of came up. Seance, at level 20, is effectively weaker than the Oath Breaker's Channel Divinity: Control Undead at lvl 20. The Necromancer's is line of sight but the Oath Breaker, for being within 30 feet, can control any <= CR 20 Undead that fail their save without worrying about hourly saves for having a high Intelligence score. Both abilities are once per long rest but the paladin gets theirs at lvl 3 whereas it's the Necromancer's CAPSTONE. It seems a bit peculiar that a Necromancer, Lord of the Undead, should have to worry about something an evil Paladin can easily handle. Almost all the mid-to-high undead (CR10+), save for a few, would be making hourly saves for the Necromancer whereas the paladin has 24 hours of complete obedience. I feel like an increased duration (my friend suggested a week or permanent), a removal of the Intelligence based saves for undead with Intelligence scores/CR equal to or less than the Necromancer's Charisma, or just something more could help this overshadowed capstone. (P.S. Sorry, this is my first time editing a wiki. I hope it's done correctly.) TexasTies (talk)

First, I think you did a great job formatting your post. Kudos! Second, I appreciate this feedback so much. I will most assuredly look at this, my issue now is that it is just rehashed feature from another class. I'd like to make the capstone feel different than another class's feature. The suggestions are good, I've just heard enough from WotC that things should be new not reused.

Other side note, for Mr.Storms. I am sorry I never responded to your post-thank you as well for the playtest feedback. I was very happy to hear it went well.

If either of you, or anyone has capstone feature suggestions lets hear it! Cheers peeps :) BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:28, 6 August 2018 (MDT)

Page Edit Suggestion: I suggest changing "Spellcasting Focus" in Class Features to "Arcane Focus" User:Winterknot435 10:46, 23 October 2019 (MDT)

Occult Idea: Would it be possible to create an Occult, or added to the witch doctor, some abilities that you could activate certain amounts of times a day to inflict negative affects like posion or exhaustion to an oponent when you attack them? I am wondering this because right now I am playing this class as a homebrew pixie and none of the other Occults have the feeling of being an extreme hindrance or annoyance directly to a hostile creature that I feel they should be able to do.

An example could be something called Energy Drain which would work like Life Tap except instead of taking Life they would have to role a con save or gain a point of exhaustion.

Another thing could be called Infection where if a creature took a physical hit and was below full health you could make them role a con save or become poisoned. This could progressively get worse with every, or every other, round they had to make another save or gain another affect like paralysis, fear, ect...

Maybe as a non agressive part of the class could be it being able to remove a certain number of conditions in one day like fear, a curse, ect.

I just think an idea like this would be cool where it is a more annoying Reaper, but in a far more direct and devistating way if not quickly taken care of. --PALOHS (talk) 01:41, 14 November 2019 (MST)

As far as exhaustion goes, I think it has its purpose in the right situations. I think there's a great concept behind it but it needs limited because six levels of exhaustion kills a creature.

I've not really dabbed into poison on this class like I'd like to but that's because intent and design has mostly been summoning. I'd like to get to that area at some point, but welcome any input for that. The other idea is that feature variants are great instead of redesigning a subclass or class. Wizards recently doing this is an awesome vindication since I've been doing a couple years now (maybe I deserve a WotC job ha!).

With all that, no idea is out of bounds, especially on the wiki that is intended for collaboration and community. I hear exhaustion, poison, and remove negative conditions. I'd like to see a little more input into where these qualities would go whether they be variants or an entire subclass itself. Could any of it work as a well spring? Could Bloodbag Army get a different effect to cause poison instead of heal allies when undead are exploded (Diablo 2 feature!)?

The other idea, is this something that has to be black and white or can you and your DM work out something you do at your own table? Homebrew the homebrew :p   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   06:08, 14 November 2019 (MST)

As this class is entirley homebrew, of course none of it is set in stone and any of it can be altered by a player and DM.

As for whether it would be a variant or a whole subclass; at the moment it would only be variants because I haven't put a lot of thought into it in case the idea was rejected. However, because your allowing me I will definitely put more thought into my ideas.

Later today or tommorrow I will probably put out more detailed descriptions of my ideas once I put more thought into them. --PALOHS (talk) 07:20, 14 November 2019 (MST)

Ok. So here is my take on a subclass focused on conditions

2nd-Level Infection- Starting at 2nd level, when a creature is hit with a non magical melee or ranged attack you may use your reaction to attempt to infect the wound making the target poisoned. The target rolls a Constitution saving throw and, on a fail, becomes poisoned. This is not treated as a saving throw against being poisoned. On a successful saving throw the target has advantage on saves against this ability for the next 24 hours. If the target is below half its total health when this ability is used the target has disadvantage on the saving throw. When poisoned, the target takes 2d4 damage per turn and the poison lasts for a number of turns equal to half the damage done to it rounded down (4 turns max). This ability can be used as many times per day equal to your charisma modifier. This ability does not stack on a target creature. You regain all the uses of this feature after a long rest. The damage increases by 2d4 At 5th level (4d4), 11th level (6d4), and 15th level (8d4).

6th-Level Toxic Knowledge- Starting at 6th level, you can attempt to remove a condition from a target of your choice. You make contact with a willing creature and roll a constitution saving throw with a DC of 10 to end the condition. If this is used to remove a point of exhaustion, for every level of exhaustion above first level, the DC for the throw increases by 2. The throw will automatically fail if used on a petrified creature.

10th-Level Fear Dominion- Starting at 10th level, you can emit an aura of paralysing fear around you. 3 times a day you can emit a 15-foot aura which lasts for three turns whereupon it dissipates. Whenever a creature enters the aura they must make a constitution saving throw. On a failed throw, while in the aura, they become paralysed and on a successful throw they become frightened while in the aura.

14th-Level Pandora’s Box- Starting at 14th level, You offer the captured souls of the dead to unleash Pandora’s Box upon your enemies. If a creature has been killed within the last five minutes you can use your action to sacrifice their soul to Pandora’s Box. When you have given Pandora’s Box 5 souls you can unleash its horrors upon one enemy of your choosing. Using your entire turn (all your action(s), bonus action(s), and reaction(s)) you roll two percentage dice for the affected target and they gain those conditions as stated below.

10 - Blindness for 3 turns

20 - Deafness for until target takes a short rest

30 - paralysis for 2 turns

40 - Becomes fatigued

50 - Poisoned for 2 turns (4d6 per turn)

60 - Frightened for 3 turns

70 - Charmed for 4 minutes

80 - Petrified for 1 turn

90 - Stunned for 2 turns

100- 1 point of exhaustion

These effects do stack upon one another (ex. if you rolled both 10s for a target, that target would be blinded for 6 turns). If you roll 20 twice, then it last until the target takes a long rest. After using Pandora’s Box, you cannot use it again for a week.

So this has nothing to do with my previous message, but do you think it would be possible to add to the base class at level one the ability to be able to raise any beast, humanoid, and monstrosity that you have killed for 24 hours? Here is my ideas;

Plague Bearer At level one, you bring death and eternal suffering upon your enemies. When you, or an undead you control, slays a humanoid, beast, or monstrosity, that creature will revive the next round as an undead with the immunities and resistances of an undead in place of the ones they had while alive. They will remain under your control for the next 24 hours whereupon they will be released of your command and die. Using magic, such as animate undead or create undead, you can reasert control over these creatures, but with the cost of them living on and becoming aggressive toward you if the escape from your command. This ability can only be used on creatures with a CR of 1/4th your current Necromancer level rounded down.

--PALOHS (talk) 15:19, 15 November 2019 (MST)

Occult Idea: Keeper

(This is my first time editing a wiki, so please tell me if I do anything wrong) This class has come a LONG way since I fisrt laid eyes on it, and I love what it's become. But I feel that only 2 archetypes just isn't quite enough, so I threw one together. I figured it could be used by someone that wants an evil healer or maybe a good Necromancer? Tell me what you think of it and what should be changed!

Necromancer Occult: Keeper

An eager doctor's assistant stays late after a failed surgery to stitch the cadaver closed, and prepare it for transport to the undertaker. But while he has the remains here to himself, he sees no harm in a little research. This case was an odd one, and he'd like to know more about it. As he conducts his experiments, he murmurs to the body, "Let's see where it all went wrong, and where we can do better next time."

Necromancers of this Occult study death in order to keep it at bay, whether it be for their own benefit or for another. Keepers have a deep and intricate understanding of why creatures die, and how to slow death or stop it all together. But the things necessary to obtain such knowledge are not for the faint of heart, or those lacking resolve.

Life On Demand. Beginning at 2nd level, you can unlock the body's natural healing abilities when it's needed the most. As an action on your turn, you can enable one creature you touch to use a number of the creature's choice of it's hit dice up to your spellcasting modifier (minimum of 0) to heal itself. At 5th level, that creature can also add it's Constitution modifier once to the health gaind this way (regardless of how many hit dice were used).

Expanded Intellect Beginning at 6th level, your studies of death and undeath have opened up new possibilities for you. You gain the Spare the Dying cantrip. You also learn the following spells: Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Beacon of Hope, Feign Death, Revivify, Death Ward, Greater Restoration, Resurrection, Mass Heal. These spells do not count against your cantrips or spells known.

Aura of Wellbeing Beginning at 10th level, you emanate an aura that wards against death and illness. You and friendly creatures within 15 feet of you have resistance to necrotic and poison damage. Additionally, you and those creatures have advantage on Wisdom saves against madness.

Refusal Beginning at 14th level, you can decide to ignore death if it's too inconvenient. The next time a creature within 5 feet of you that you can touch (including you) would drop to 0hp, you may use your reaction to let that creature drop 1hp instead. You must finish a long rest before you can use this ability again.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by NumYummy94 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Wow, I must say I am really happy to see another subclass idea that has its own identity but still fits within this class. Thanks for the support on what this is too. A lot of work went into this. I am curious of a couple things:

• 2nd level- how do you feel limiting this to a number of uses equal to your charisma modifier? I don’t like it but seems fair.
• 10th level-can you justify poison? I feel that it’s unneccesaary, flavorfully and balance wise. But just one dude. Also, I’d prefer fear or madness since madness is alternative rule. What do you think about this?

overall, I can explain my excitement for this. Also, just a wiki formality, type this symbol ~ four times to sign your posts. Helps us know who we’re talking to as well :) welcome to the wiki and thanks for the idea. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:08, 17 February 2018 (MST)

The subclass looks great, with the few minor tweaks BigShotFancyMan suggested, it should be ready to go. The only thing I am worried about now looking back at the class is the fact that you can repeatedly gain 1d6 + your cha modifier temporary hit points with Life Tap at 1st level which allows the class to repeatedly tank shots they normally would not be able to take at lower levels. This feature largely needs to be looked at again for a way to balance it as currently, as it can repeatedly provides an effect similar to false life which is a 1st level spell.--Blobby383b (talk) 13:26, 17 February 2018 (MST)

I think this came up before and I didn’t understand the power of the current version. I see your point and sadly agree. I’d like multiple uses of it but almost think the class has a lot of this. A short/long rest feature could do some good, and with the healing gained later, the class shouldn’t need multiple uses of Life Tap. Opinion? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:47, 17 February 2018 (MST)

I think the feature would be far too swingy in terms of power level between when you hit and when you miss if was only useable once every short/long rest. Might I suggest that we just change the amount of temporary hit points instead? For example, changing the feature to say "You gain temporary hit points equal to your proficiency bonus + half your necromancer level rounded down" would allow you to use the feature more than once yet not be too powerful.--Blobby383b (talk) 16:20, 17 February 2018 (MST)

Thanks for responding and helping me out!

• 2nd level- Limiting it a little might not be a bad idea, but I would like to point out that hit dice are a finite resource which is dependent on character level. If you use this ability to spend hit dice in battle, then you don't have them if your party decides to take a short rest. Side note: I might add something to the ability like "creatures that spend hit dice in this way do not regain those hit dice until they finish a long rest."
• 10th level- You make some good points here. Imo I think poison fits in great, but I guess it is a little unbalanced. And I didn't know that madness is an alternative rule, so I guess doesn't make sense to put it in here. But I also don't really like fear in this situation either. What do you all think about advantage on CON saves against diseases?

So once all of the details are flushed out, is it possible for this archetype to get onto the actual necromancer page? And what would it take for that to happen? NumYummy94 (talk) 08:51, 25 February 2018 (MST)

If we can come to a consensus, I can either add this information to the page myself, or unlock the page so someone else can. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎ . . 09:20, 25 February 2018 (MST)

I think working out a time for me to add it would be difficult. Feel free to add the subclass Geo or if you and Blobby want to coordinate so he can cool beans. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:20, 25 February 2018 (MST) I overlooked Num’s response. I think I assumed you’d be limited to HD but the ability to do it outside of short rest is pretty good. I won’t make a stink about the poison. A few other eyes are watching this, seems fair to get a concession what we think. The core class becomes immune to disease. So advantage against them is moot. And looking closer, same with poison (immune). Curious, why don’t you like the fear? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:31, 25 February 2018 (MST)

I forgot about the immunities, so I guess we can find something else. What does everyone think of resistance to radiant damage? That's a less common damage type. And fear just doesn't quite fit what I had originally envisioned for this subclass. But I don't have that much of an objection to it, if other people like it we can use it. NumYummy94 (talk) 19:53, 26 February 2018 (MST)

Scratch that last part, the necromancer also gets immunity to fear, so that won't work either. NumYummy94 (talk) 22:58, 26 February 2018 (MST)

Frightened =/= Fear. What did you envision? What ways would radiant apply flavorfully? I thought the suggestions really helped balance the subclass without changing the idea of this from the lore you provided. Still a big fan of this and really would like it added. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:25, 27 February 2018 (MST)

How does adding something situational but flavorful like immune to effects/things that cause instant death or immune to effects that reduce a creature's maximum hit points sound?--Blobby383b (talk) 10:33, 2 March 2018 (MST)

I would be open hears to protection from instant death, the other is already on the Undertaker as level two subclass feature. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:45, 2 March 2018 (MST)

Keeper with a more Necromancy taste

Hi, i really love the idea of this class and the idea of supportive necromancer sounds all the better. But the keeper as it is now feels more like something of a cleric and less as a lord of the undead healer. So allow me to give some alternative ideas and let me know what think about it. Most of these ideas come from the first guild wars game, as i think it is one of the best implimentations of a necromancer in a team.

Well's

They are called well's in Guildwars, once a creature died you can use the body not to reanimate it but to turn it into a well, giving a AoE effect around the corspe. The corpse can not be revived or reanimated once its used. So lets say we activate a corspe and turn it into a well with a 10 feet radius, every one within that 10 feet radius can receive one of the following effects:

Well of Blood: Every creature that ends its turn within the well gains health at the end of their turn. Lets say health equal to the casters spellmodifier or something like that. Its not much but everyone gets a boost from that (even the enemies?)

Well of Blindness: creatures within the range of the well are blinded as long as they stay inside of it.

Well of Darkness: not quite the same as the blindess well, it creates a darkness spell around the corpse.

Well of Ruin: creatures within the range of the well get reduced AC. That can be a fixed number or a spell modifier.

Well of Suffering: creatures within range of the well take damage at the end of their turn. Lets say damage equal to the casters spellmodifier.(even your allies?)

Well of Silence: sound is muted within range of the well, which means no vocal component for spells as well.

Well of Weariness creatures within range of the well get a reduced attribute like Dexterity or Wisdom.

Well of Profane creatures within range of the well take extra necrotic damage (say 1d6) when damaged.

Well of Misfortune creatures within range of the well have disadvantage on saving throws.

Well of Protection creatures within range of the well have additional AC (say +2).

Well of Fortitude creatures within range of the well have advantage on saving throws.

The Keeper can choose a single well, or maybe choose 3 of them so it has plenty of supporting options. Since the uses need to be limited you can choose to use it only a limited amount of times like with lifetap, or maybe use a 1st lvl spellslot for it. I think this is a great option for the 2nd level, since you start almost immediately using corpses and immediately supporting the team.

Leech off your minions

The idea of healing your allies or recovering them sounds great, but way to safe for a necromancer to just heal for free like something holy would. Alternatively the keeper could heal but not for free. I think this would be great for the 6th level. The keeper can deal 2d8 necrotic damage for example to one of its minions and half of the damage can be healed to a ally. This way the necromancer has to sacrefice some of its minions to heal the party, which sounds more necromancerish in my opinion, and it gives a solid reason to reanimate the dead as a keeper.

Life Siphon

This sounds more end game so i think this would be better at 10th level. Drain the life from a creature while simultaniously healing another. Kind of like the vampiric touch spell but you transfer the health not to yourself but someone else. Alternatively the idea of placing a life saping parasite on your enemy could work as well. Let it throw a constitution sav and if it fails it takes damage and a ally gets healed, repeat this until the enemy creature succeeds on the sav. This way your healing doesn't come from the almighty but rather from your enemies, it even gives the necromancer a reason to target the weaker creatures around it instead of the big ones to get a better chance of healing a ally. This could have a limited amount of uses, or use spellslots instead.

Those were some of my ideas. I like the keeper but i feel it should be less free like a the "Life Transference" spell (which is a necromancy spell) instead of the cure wounds spell which only gives and takes nothing. I hope i didnt offend anyone on my little rant. --Mr.Storms (talk) 12:14, 13 September 2019 (MDT)

I am of the mind your idea sounds like a lot of fun albeit a little MMO-y. The Diablo game uses corpse manipulation as well, and is something I wanted to re-create from scratch for a Necro (off-site). Your idea I think fits better as its own subclass, that can alter corpse in more than one way-wells or explosions, or another way I don't! :-)

How would you feel about it being a stand alone subclass? What about others that follow this page; do you like the idea? Change Keeper or make a new subclass?   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   09:40, 13 September 2019 (MDT)

I always like the idea of having more subclasses so users can pick and choose what they want out of a class. Because of that, I would prefer it if a new subclass is crated out of these ideas.

Regardless, I agree with Mr. Storms that the subclass's theme could be to use the dead to support your allies in a number of different ways(I also like the idea of turning an undead minion of yours into a well as it allows you to make use of the feature much more often than you otherwise could).--Blobby383b (talk) 19:04, 13 September 2019 (MDT)

I do like the ideas! In case I gave the wrong impression. Sorry.   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   20:32, 13 September 2019 (MDT)

I will give it a go, let me know what you think needs balancing or complete removal. Also english isn't my native language, so if anyone spots any spelling or grammar mistake let me know. --Mr.Storms (talk) 17:33, 16 September 2019 (MDT)

Features Removed for balancing

Undead Companion

Beginning at 3rd level, you gain an undead companion that accompanies you on your adventures and is trained to fight alongside you. Choose between a wolf, raven, mastiff or panther and treat them as skeleton (they gain damage vulnerabilities & immunities, condition immunities, and Undead Nature feature). Add your proficiency bonus to the undead's AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls, as well as any saving throws and skills it is proficient in (the undead gains proficiency in the same saving throws for your necromancer class). It's hit point maximum equals the hit point number in its stat block or six times your necromancer level, whichever is higher. Like any creature, it can spend Hit Dice during a short rest to regain hit points. The undead obeys your commands as best as it can. It takes its turn on your initiative, though it doesn't take an action unless you command it to. On your turn, you can telepathically command the undead to move (no action by you). You can use your bonus action to telepathically command it to take the Attack, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or Help action. If you are absent or incapacitated, the undead acts on its own, focusing on protecting you and itself. The undead never requires your command to use its reaction, such as when making an opportunity attack. If the undead dies, you can obtain a new companion by spending 1 hour magically bonding with a pile bones and meets the requirements (wolf, raven, etc).

Control Legendary Undead

Starting at 17th level, you can choose to have one of the following companions instead of your Undead Companion. These companions do not gain any benefits like your Undead Companion does nor do they gain any benefits from your archetype choice; they use their stat blocks from the monster manual. By spending a week concentrating you may change the companion to another one. Your old companion disappears in a cloud of black smoke and cannot be found again.

Dracolich

Monster Manual page 84

Demilich

Monster Manual page 48

Death Knight

Monster Manual page 47

Down Time Activity

Only characters of the Necromancer class, or wizards of the school of necromancy, may choose to engage in this down time activity. At an expense of both time and money, the character may join the undead. This gives the main befit of undead based immortality, and each method has its advantages, but undeath also comes with many disadvantages. Undead do not need food, water, or air. When an undead character is dying, all medicine checks to stabilize them automatically fail. Their body is technically already dead.

Wraith

You may abandon your mortal coil, to become an being of pure immaterial spirit. Like a living spell, you become intangible. You are able to fly and hover continuously at a height equal to your charisma score in feet. Mundane and unsilvered weapons pass through you, dealing no damage. You can pass through objects and structures of a thickness up to your level in feet. As a side-effect, you cannot carry material possessions for any meaningful span of time, as interacting with objects is exhausting. You can interact with a single object at a time, for a duration equal to your level in minutes. You cannot wear physical clothing of any kind, except when interacting with it as an object. You have no resistance to magical effects of any kind, and cannot receive such resistances from any racial or class features, feats, boons, or from magical effects or items. You are invisible in direct sunlight, but otherwise visible. You cannot die from old age and you can become invisible for a duration equal to your level in minutes. You must complete a short or long rest before using this feature again. Your appearance is somewhat subject to your will. You can appear clothed however you wish, and you can alter your features as you wish. You can change your size one size smaller and larger at will. Your shape is either humanoid or a deformed ball of black smoke.

• 100 days.
• 500 gp
• A silvered dagger.

Vampire

You may do extensive research to create the vampiric curse; a spell which causes one to become a vampire without dying in the first place. You then cast this spell upon yourself to obtain an immortal life. This is not without consequences. Direct or indirect sunlight is harmful to you, as if a torch flame to your skin, dealing 1d6 damage per round. Any holy object or material (garlic, holy symbols, silver, blessed objects and locations) recoil at your existence and likewise burn upon touch, dealing 1d6 damage per round. You can only feed upon fresh blood, of which you need the same amount as a living creature would need water, otherwise you are without need of food, drink, or air.

• 200 days.
• 1,000 gp.
• A humanoid virgin sacrifice. Reduce gp cost by half if the sacrifice is the same race as you.

Lich

The magnum opus of necromancer, you can become a true undead in corporeal form. This is achieved by binding your soul to a non-living object- something which can last for centuries- and haunting your corpse. As a result, you do not need to eat, drink, breathe, or sleep. (Though rest of the mind, in some form or another, is still necessary) You will live forever. However, there is nothing preserving your body. It is dead and will rot away until all that is left is bone dust. Modifications to your body are incorporated as if they are simply a part of it. Your phylactory- the object you bound your soul to- must remain undamaged. If it is ever destroyed, you will die. Your phylactory must be within range of your corpse in order for you to possess it. This range is equal to your level ×10. If your body is ever destroyed (drop to 0 hp) it takes a number of days equal to your maximum hp to restore control of it.

• 300 days.
• 5,000 gp.
• An object, able to be carried in one hand, made of stone, metal, or ceramic, with a value of your level in gp or greater.

Wow.

That is a ton of work! Do you guys feel this thing is getting close to what you think it should be? I'd be happy to run it through the wringer a few times and see how it measures up. --Kydo (talk) 20:53, 12 September 2017 (MDT)

I absolutely do. I have a session tonight I'd like to use it in if it fits. I'd love others' help play testing since my group is every other week. There isn't anything I'd add other than more flavor, a photo? and clerical touching up. Thanks for the "Wow" title too. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:21, 13 September 2017 (MDT)

I already believe that the class is at a usable point, and my thoughts mirror BigShotFancyMan's on the class. Specifically, I believe that class could be tinkered with a bit more because there may still be some problems with balance or info(no limit on the souls for grim for example) that we missed. I also hope the testing session goes well, both as a test run for the class and to see whether this would be something a PC may want to play as in the future. --Blobby383b (talk) 09:16, 13 September 2017 (MDT)

I think you mentioned the Soul Harvest before but the base class has no need to limit because it doesn't use the souls for anything. Improved Soul Harvest for the Reaper archetype does and did manage to get my limit back on it, number equal to necromancer level. Totally needs tested from where it is at though. (AND ITS PROTECTED WOOT) BigShotFancyMan (talk) 16:39, 13 September 2017 (MDT)

Test Play Experience

I finally got to test play this. I had the environment set up in the Necromancer's favor, race Elf and level 10. Went with Undertaker archetype. The party is/was 4 level 6 PCs: Earth Genasi-Barbarian, Frenzy Homebrew Race(regen 5hp/round, resist poison, adv. on enchants & illusion saves, immune to disease)-Revised Ranger, Hunter Conclave Human-Fighter, Homebrew Gunslinger Human-Homebrew Witcher, I forgot the school Every member has a magical weapon.

The underground room was 40x40ft and rather tall ceiling. I had thrown dungeon tile pieces all across the floor as dead carcasses or biles of bones and then I had 15 basic zombie/skellys walking around. I had included 4 basic werewolves, they had a story reason which isn't discovered. They walked in and the Necro was a trusted NPC from years ago, but things have changed so in the middle of the trap they go (real life, they knew, RP well) eventually, trusted friend turns undead on party, werewolves (ww) join in. I used one Fireball and invisibility spell. I had to calculate the spontaneous animate dead, I had extra undead on the field, no matter. all in all, I killed one PC (the gunslinger) my homebrew mutant (based on Deadpool) had no issue and the barbarian was hurting. I used an elephants as the animate greater undead creature. worked well. Overall, 4 level 6 PCs handle the event medium risk. There's homebrew which make it harder to evaluate but dice rolls weren't crazy, pretty fair. Life tap wasn't used and seems very underwhelming considering other options, but I hope when options run out, it is that life saving feature. As an NPC, soul harvest may not be fun. I thought about using it to kill my own undead to heal, but didn't think to do it. I'm on the fence if it should be allowed, the idea killing your own minions for gain is sadistic and cool for a necro. The Undertake extra hp didn't matter, but the perk to AC was super nice. I think it is balanced but the HP boost is laughable. Maybe since all the minions got it, 15x4=60, you could argue it was balanced but I think a beefier undead is would feel better. The other two features didn't come into play but I think they are still good archetype features. Not everything should apply in all situations. I think the test play was good, my players knew about this class and were happy to see it. Please ask questions. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:35, 29 October 2017 (MDT)

Sounds like you had fun play testing the class. Based on what you said about Life tap, it may be better to make it scale the damage up to 4d6 (the same way it is stated in cantrips), make it rechargeable only after you finish a long rest, and make the temporary hit points not go away. That way, it makes the feature feel much more like a powerful backup measure. For soul harvest the idea is fine, but the power level is not. I will probably slightly rework that feature to be more balanced, and you can tell me what you think of it after it is done. I think the Undertaker archetype is fine, you get beefier undead at 14th level, and the archetype shouldn't front load all its powerful features and make your undead too powerful too soon. I am also curious/still worried about the higher level animate major undead, since that was left untested, and would prefer if the feature had a 3/6/9 spread instead of the feature gaining 4 CR on improvement. I say this because the feature may still be too powerful at higher levels and because my original suggestion for the feature was 3/5/8. Besides that, if you can think of any other possible improvements for the class based on the play test or by looking through the class, could you bring them up as well?--Blobby383b (talk) 11:50, 30 October 2017 (MDT)

I'm really excited about Life Tap changes. It looks like it might have the panache it needs to be considered for use. The Soul Harvest rework I don't think was necessary. It was non-factor in my encounter so it is hard to judged. Regaining hit points vs temporary hit points is a big issue though. If we have to tweak numbers or whatever fine but the flavor is definitely for the necro to sustain off the feature. With the adjustment to double the CR, I think that'd be a fair number to regain. But more temp hp is just bleh.
I agree about undertaker. healthy place and power level seems smooth. I did avoid higher levels because of animate greater undead. As I was developing the encounter I thought, "oh man, that seems strong" so I agree this is a needed change. I like moving towards 3/6/9. I think 5/8 will be underwhelming. I played this similar to a boss vs as a PC, so some balance aspects will be off, hate to over-nerf.
With that, thanks for reading my playtest and offering suggestions. I haven't quite given thought to anything else needing touch ups. If I play, I'll see if my DM lets me do this which would provide a lot more insight vs and NPC BBEG. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:28, 30 October 2017 (MDT)

Nice work. I'll unlock the page. Let me know if anyone is abusing this temp unlock. --ConcealedLight (talk) 05:00, 4 May 2018 (MDT)

Feature Updates

With the recommendation by TexasTies, I was evaluating the features and considered this:
Port the oathbreaker feature to 5th level.
Create a new capstone feature.
My concerns are a feature at a level when 3rd level spells come online. I don't think spontaneous unburial is strong enough to remove, but controlling undead may be. I spoke before about creating a new feature, but the possibility to control any undead for the undead king seems like common sense. (my own oversight). Are there other thoughts? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:31, 6 August 2018 (MDT)

Hello again, BigShotFancyMan! Since bringing up that Capstone issue, I've been wracking my brain for something that would work as a final ability that would be fitting for any Necromancer subclass. I've come up with this:

The Grim Harvest: Starting at 20th level, the area around you, the Necromancer, becomes a volatile zone of death and necrotic magic. You have learned to sew the agony of the newly departed's death into those nearby. Whenever an enemy creature dies within 60 feet of the Necromancer, you may use your reaction to target it and cause an explosion of necrotic energy. Any number of creatures of your choice within 10 feet of the targeted creature must make a Constitution save. On a failed save, they take 8d6 necrotic damage and only half as much damage if they succeed. If this damage kills any other creatures, you may target one of the creatures killed by this damage to cause a secondary explosion but the damage is reduced to 4d6 with damaged halved on a successful save. If this secondary explosion kills any more creatures, you may target one of the creatures killed by this secondary damage to repeat the explosion a third time but the damage is reduced to 2d6 with no damage on a successful save. Any undead you control within the radius of the initial effect are healed for half the amount of necrotic damage done by the first explosion. You regain use of this feature after completing a short or long rest.

As for shifting around Spontaneous Unburial, that almost feels like it'd be a feature for the Undertaker. You could make it an Undertaker feature while adjusting some things within the specialization.

Unholy Resilience: Beginning at 2nd level, the time you've spent wielding negative energy has made it a part of you and the undead you control. You and any undead that you create have resistance to necrotic damage and your hit point maximum cannot be reduced. At 5th level, Skeletons and zombies you raise have additional hit points and bonuses to their melee attack rolls equal to your proficiency bonus.

Spontaneous Unburial: Starting at 6th level, your bond with necrotic and negative energy allows you to raise the dead in exchange for your spells. As an action, you can sacrifice a spell slot to cast animate dead equal to the spell slot you sacrificed minus 1 (minimum 3rd level). You do not need a corpse or pile of bones; the skeleton or zombie will claw its way up from underground and acts on your next turn.

Improved Undead: Beginning at 10th level, your bond with the dead has imbued them with power against those that would seek their destruction. Undead you control have advantage on Wisdom saving throws against Turn Undead attempts. In addition, undead you raise add your proficiency bonus to their armor class and damage rolls.

Lord of the Undead: Beginning at 14th level, you've reached the epitome of raising undead. Your undead creatures no longer have any innate damage vulnerabilities and gain additional hit points equal to your Necromancer level.

This was a huge post but I hope it helps and that the changes in my suggestion don't make the Undertaker too overpowered for a subclass. I am also open to working out anything to do with The Grim Harvest Capstone. I thought it was flavorful and unique to the Necromancer instead of just "I summon/control more undead!" because, let's be honest, he and every other wizard can do that. TexasTies (talk) 02:34, 8 August 2018 (MDT)

I just learned/realized that Blobby383b (talk) is the original creator and not BigShotFancyMan (talk). Sorry about that. I hope either are okay with the suggestion above. TexasTies (talk) 19:33, 15 August 2018 (MDT)

I do believe it was Kydo who created the article, Blobby and I collaborated together on this. I apologize that no one has responded sooner. Both are quite busy at the moment. I will try to get to this after I edit another page in dire need of attention. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 18:42, 18 August 2018 (MDT)

Well, I did start a draft back when I last posted, then got caught up in who knows what. Anyhow, I like spontaneous burial for the class. In my opinion, classes each have something like an identity whether its rage, inspiration, wild shape, feats, sneak attack, etc and for this class the spontaneous undead summoning is that to me. To shift it on a subclass would be take away from the class identity.

Grim Harvest is a cool feature, and while I drew inspiration from Diablo III when editing this class, it was inspiration that classes need identities. It also fits with WotC philosophy that new stuff should do new things. All that to say, exploding corpses is new for D&D but it is a Diablo III Necromancer thing (which I'd like to create a version of D3's Necro sometime). I use copyright tags a lot so it isn't that issue that bugs me, just wanted something non-D3 for this dude.

When controlling undead was brought up, I wanted to create something that actually said undead patriarch/matriarch. The idea the current capstone is significantly weaker than other classes doing bugged me. So for now I've mimicked (which bothers me because it isn't "new") the oathbreaker thing. Grim Harvest can be a variant capstone I'll add to it, though exploding corpses is a really low level ability in Diablo 3 but whatever works. Sorry again I never responded. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:36, 24 September 2018 (MDT)

Just going to say I really like Grim Harvest. —ConcealedLight (talk) 08:58, 24 September 2018 (MDT)

Well, in the spirit of collaboration, if the community deems Grim Harvest more appropriate for the capstone feature than so it shall be. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:27, 24 September 2018 (MDT)

I understand not wanting to have the modified version of Spontaneous Unburial solely within the Keeper's domain, though I think it would make sense given that summoning minions is that subclasses' unique flavor within the class as a whole. For the reference to Diablo. It's actually a similarity to a Diablo II ability, not Diablo III, that I drew inspiration from. Corpse Explosion was a low tier Diablo II ability in the Bone Spell tree that was so overpowered that they had to nerf it into the ground because it was ruining game balance. Regardless, I wanted to put a spin on it and make it special to the Necromancer class. The necromancer takes the enemy's soul in the midst of the transition between life to death and uses that energy to his own advantage. The Grim Harvest deals great AoE damage with a rarely resisted damage type, you can have it chain for free if it does its job, and it heals your undead minions in the meantime. While it might have drawn inspiration from Diablo II's corpse explosion, I think it's still very much unique to both it and D&D. No corpses exploding here.

I appreciate that you put in Grim Harvest as a trial-Capstone but I think, with the adjustments you made to it, it is now far worse than the original design. The reasons being:

• Firstly, it is no longer friendly to your party. It's actually incredibly deadly to your enemies, your allies, and even your summons. Even though it heals your undead for half the amount it deals, they're still taking the full amount of damage from every blast (if you're not a Keeper subclass) because you don't control the targets within the blast and everybody is hit.
• Secondly, the exponential increase of secondary blasts is what I wanted to actively avoid when I designed it. I wanted a powerful capstone but I didn't want an ability that would end an entire encounter in one go if you get lucky on a damage roll. The way it's written, you get secondary explosions off of your allies, which can likely kill even more allies and summons. You can wipe the entire field with it. The maximum amount of blasts in the original write up was 3 if you got lucky on two deaths. The theoretical limit on this one is in the upper 20s (dealing with insane density and low-level creatures here) and that's an overwhelming amount of dice. If I wanted to abuse this as it's currently written, I'd herd all of my minions around some enemies and focus one down. Have all my minions fail their saves and suddenly I'm sitting on a necrotic atomic bomb.
• Lastly, I liked the feel of the echoing blasts. Three distinct blasts that subsequently get weaker but each singular blast represented enough rather than getting lost amidst an insane cacophony of secondary explosions. The rule of three applies very well here and I think the rewrite loses that feel. It's not quite as mechanical as the first two reasons but it's definitely an aspect of flavor I think shouldn't be lost.

I can understand how it may feel clunky at first but I don't see any reason to have changed The Grim Harvest that I wrote. In my personal opinion, the changes that have been made to it make it a bad capstone. I don't have the capability to edit it but I'd ask if you could reconsider the changes you made to it and have the original The Grim Harvest instead. Thank you for your time, thoughts, and patience with this fantastic class. Hope we can hammer this thing into proper shape. TexasTies (talk) 22:21, 24 September 2018 (MDT)

I nerfed it because I didn't think it to fit within a 5e design. Tertiary effects that is. I mean, I'll add it back. No big deal. Just like you said, the feature is clunky and takes a person a second to understand what it does. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:41, 25 September 2018 (MDT)

Flawed Design

I've known this for months now, and I've pondered what best way to fix this: Spontaneous Unburial serves no purpose for a class that doesn't prepare spells.
I'd prefer not to give this class a book like Wizards, and they don't need access to all the arcane spells the way a divine caster does. I like the sorcerer style of casting, but community could decide.
My thought was to replace spontaneous unburial with that paladin subclass feature that allows control any undead. Or are there other suggestions? Leave it just with animate dead? a couple more spells? or remove any feature since they get 3rd level spells anyhow? what an oversight on my part, apologies. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:44, 17 October 2018 (MDT)

I don't see the flaw in it: it allows you to cast animate undead as an action instead of a 1 minute casting time and not need any nearby bodies/bones to be targeted for the cast. It's great for battle and really sets the Necromancer class apart from a Wizard with the Necromancer subclass. The phrasing of "sacrificing a spell slot" might need to be tweaked or removed to say "You may cast Animate Dead as an action instead of the usual 1 minute casting time. You do not need a..." Otherwise, there's nothing I can see that requires any changes mechanically.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying? Can you expand upon what you see is an issue? TexasTies (talk) 14:28, 18 October 2018 (MDT)

guess I forgots animate dead took 1 minute. Man, please disregard. Feature is dope! BigShotFancyMan (talk) 16:03, 18 October 2018 (MDT)

I guess the only other thing that may need attention is the fact the class learns and does not prepare spells and as such shouldn't have ritual casting. For example, because the class does have ritual casting, you can cast any ritual spell from the wizard spell list which you haven't learned, which is crazy.--Blobby383b (talk) 08:33, 19 October 2018 (MDT)

Animate Dead as a Ritual

I just had this epiphany while looking at another spell. How do others feel about it making animate dead a ritual for a capstone feature or some high level feature? or put it on one of the subclasses? think about it before immediately shooting down an idea I am super excited about lol :p ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:50, 13 December 2018 (MST)

It certainly fits with the thematic feel of a necromancer sitting there casting a long winding spell that summons undead. I like it. The only issue I see is it clashes a bit with Spontaneous Unburial in the core class (which is itself an amazing feature.) I think it would fit best with, as you suggest, one of the subclass: Undertaker. To keep it in line with it's potential power, it could be added to the Undertaker's 14th level subclass feature. Afterall, it does say "You reach the epitome of raising undead." Immediately following that, just say "You may now cast Animate Undead as a ritual and your undead creatures no longer-"

It compliments the Undertaker and their likely larger army better than the other subclasses. It also allows the necromancer to reassert control over their army without the need of using spell-slots, something the minion specific subclass would likely benefit from the most. We should probably consider this class pretty air-tight at around this point though. It's getting near power-creep levels (despite my love for and currently playing of this class.) TexasTies (talk) 23:29, 15 December 2018 (MST)

Haha power creep is my fear so thanks for the input. The only reason I didn't see it infringing on base class spontaneous unburial is that the ritual takes 10 minutes and no spell slot vs casting a spell ie a spell slot and its an action. Like, I think there is significant difference and option there. But, still awaiting more input. This is good stuff. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 23:36, 15 December 2018 (MST)

Might as well try it out and see where the stench of death takes us. —ConcealedLight (talk) 10:04, 16 December 2018 (MST)

Alright, I gave the core class the feature because I thought Reaper and Undertaker both deserved this. It happens at 14th level to coincide with the Necromancer getting their final subclass feature too. I've only NPC'd this once. have to get some player testplays with this. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:15, 17 December 2018 (MST)

Some food for thought

I would really love to see some type of communication back and forth between a necromancers creations and himself. Even for nothing more than some fun in the RP scene of this class I think some kind of implementing of the undead being able to speak (maybe only skeletons cause Zombies are too unintelligent) to the necromancer would be really cool. Being able to designate one of your 6, 7, 8 undead creations as your second in command or maybe even just picking a favorite out of your horde and trying to deck him out in magic items, the ability to talk to your undead would be really cool I think. Just putting it out there, obviously all the inner workings is for the smarter people to deal with :P —The preceding unsigned comment was added by notdndwiki (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Were you able to figure out your other question? About major undeads?

And a mechanic for sentience seems unnecessary. Undead don't need sentience to be equipped with magic items and I would rather see a spell created for the wizard spell list that allows sensory through the undead. An undead lieutenant seems very cool if that is what you are seeking. I just don't think it needs baked into a class with a lot already doing that. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:28, 7 January 2019 (MST)

Yes actually I realized what I was talking about was just moronic in a sense lol I wasn't actually reading into the class itself and the idea of the major undead concept I had was just silly. Apologies for not signing my previous post I'm new to editing and what not so I'm still picking up on the formatting though I've been on the site for a while I usually just read up. I suppose you're right about the sentience and maybe I can simply convince my DM to allow me to study up with my undead and somehow formulate a sentient / telepathic bond or something, specifics can be worked out. Thanks for responding, I'm currently playing this class for the first time in a campaign tonight so I'm hoping it works out and I'm interested to see how it goes. ~ Notdndwiki

Don't sweat the signature, the thing I placed is a standard template. You can sign your name by clicking the signature button at the top of the edit options (not sure what we call them). It is to the right of the red circle. Otherwise typing "~" four times does the trick too.

I am thrilled to hear a player is using this. Please share in test play experience whether its here or my talk page. I am sad that sentience isn't something that is easy to throw as I said it is really cool idea but already we have so much baked in. I heard on twitter the idea of using magic items to test out things. Maybe your DM could do this? The post went on to say that if the idea isn't like, destroy the item! A lot easier that changing and making rules or class features. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:38, 10 January 2019 (MST)

No idea how to edit, but hopefully this works. So I’ve been playing this Necromancer for a little while now with keeper subclass, still relatively new to D&D as a whole, only played two other campaigns and only up to lvl 5ish. So I’m pretty confused about how this class works. We just hit lvl 8, and I decided to go through my spells. I then realized that I have about 22 spells known. I know the class gives you some to “learn from” and you auto learn Animate undead(my DM also allowed me to exchange knowledge on certain spells with another PC, which only accounts for 1 extra), but I’m not sure where I messed up. I also realized that there’s no “preparing” spells info on the whole wiki, which confused tf out of me.J5andmann (talk) 16:32, 20 January 2019 (MST)

I've been playing this 5e Necromancer for a few months now, only level 5 so far because we've hit a lull in the story, but I think I know what might have happened (without having seen any of your character sheet.) The first thing I would say is in regard to those 22 spells. That sounds almost exactly like the amount you would have at 8th level if you added the spells from the 6th level Keeper subclass feature to your known spells instead of just adding them to the spells you can learn. I might be wrong but, again, I haven't seen your character sheet. The second thing I would say is that there is no "preparing" spells because the Necromancer is based on a Sorcerer's spell-casting, not a Wizard's. They don't need to prepare any spells because they know their spells. In a sense, they are always prepared and any can be chosen from at any time if the Sorcerer (see Necromancer) has the proper spell slots. With this in mind, I hope this clears some stuff up for ya! ~ TexasTies (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2019 (MST)

Ah, I now see the error. Yes that is exactly what i was doing. I have been reading this as a wizard class and imo it has been working just fine and tbh fits the character ive created perfectly. He is a doctor who was intrigued by death, so he has been devoted to the studies of life and death his whole life, and that is where he has gained his knowledge. I started off with the six spells and have been learning two each level as wizards do. I followed the rules for having prepared spells according to wizard class, and it doesn't seem broken, my character is still relatively squishy. I picked spell sniper, so i can chill touch from a distance, and when they get close i have my skellies and my life tap. J5andmann (talk) 12:46, 22 January 2019 (MST)

Thanks so much for helping TexasTies and I love your character concept J5andmann. Your inputs are greatly appreciated. I’m thrilled the questions had simple solutions too! :p ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 16:37, 22 January 2019 (MST)

Template Call

The reason I labeled it as a "bad template call" is because it was called twice, and based on the template "extrasonright" isn't a thing. It's only "extrasonleft". Without the "extraonleft" set to the correct value, additional columns will default to the right of the features list. Putting "extrasonright" is the same as not having "extrasonright" there. Coaldstone (talk) 15:33, 29 January 2019 (MST)

Improved Soul Harvest and initial cost for 1st level spell slot.

In Improved Soul Harvest feature it says: You can consume souls to regain up to a 3rd level spell slot, which costs 2 souls for every additional spell level beyond 1st level. For instance, a 3rd level spell would consume 6 souls.

This makes it look like 1st level slot have different cost than other levels. If 1st level spell slot costs 2, then it should be stated before "which costs 2 souls for every additional spell level" line. Or maybe it's a mistake and there's a difference between 1st level slot cost and other ones. Either way, i think it's better to make it clear. -- Nick_Vendel 02:22, 6 February 2019 (MST)

I think I understood what you meant and removed some words that I think make it work as intended. Let me know if that is correct. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:50, 6 February 2019 (MST)

Also note the difference I made to Improved Soul Harvest regarding the souls dealing damage equal to the charisma modifier. I am not sure I added this or not but at level 20 that could be an extra 100 necrotic damage, something I find far superior to any core class feature. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:55, 6 February 2019 (MST)

Thank you for clarifying this feature. I guess, i still need to change my file to update its balance regarding Charisma Modifier, not a big deal. Good luck with your future projects. -- Nick_Vendel 08:12, 8 February 2019 (MST)

Also, want to add that i changed equipment choice from a crescent scythe to just scythe in my file, since crescent scythe is Martial Weapon, while Necromancer gets proficiency only in Simple ones. -- Nick_Vendel 09:12, 8 February 2019 (MST)

Ah yeah, good call and thanks for the luck. Best for you as well. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:03, 8 February 2019 (MST)

Questioning balance

Séance seems a bit overpowered, since someone could use it on a lich or any undead BBEGs.--Benk207 (talk) 15:53, 27 February 2019 (MST)

The paladin subclass oathbreaker gets the option at level 3. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 17:14, 27 February 2019 (MST)

I kind of think Seance seems underpowered for a capstone ability. Maybe extend it to multiple targets? 96.66.56.89 07:50, 20 March 2019 (MDT)

A number of targets up to your charisma modifier within 30 feet? ~ BigShotFancyMan ^{talk contributions} 09:56, 20 March 2019 (MDT)

Maybe double that number? If they're high CR creatures like the OP suggested, they're likely to succeed against it, and a bunch of low CR creatures like run-of-the-mill zombies and skeletons won't pose an overly unbalancing threat, I would think. 24.128.137.98 19:23, 20 March 2019 (MDT)

Multiclass

The multi classing seams rather bad if you look at official 5e multiclass examples they all get skills and such but you only give light armor as a proficiency that is useless a barbs passive unarmored is better than that and other classes will have at least that if not better. you don't grant any skills or anything useful. this is also a concern i have with other classes on the wiki. --Catmanaz (talk) 20:07, 9 March 2019 (MST)

simply not true. Please see page 164 of the Player’s Handbook. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:14, 10 March 2019 (MDT)

Soul Harvest procs

So, how much does Soul Harvest proc off of kills? Example, you’re level 10 and you get two kills, do you get 20 temp hit points, or just 10? The wording, I find, is a bit vague for me. ~ Randomperson2021 (talk) 10:28PM 1 May 2019

It says if you kill one or more you get hit points equal to your necro level. It doesn't matter if you kill one or 100, you only gain hit points equal to your necro level.

Now, if these hit points would exceed your maximum, then you gain temporary hit point equal to however much is extra.

Example, you have 50 out of 55 hit points. When you kill 8 creatures, at the end of your turn you gain 10 hit points but you can only get 5 because 55 is your max. the remaining 5 hit points are temporary instead. If you were to kill more creatures your next turn, then the amount tmep hit points would replace whatever you have, since temporary hit points are not added. ~ BigShotFancyMan 07:45, 1 May 2019 (MDT)

Witch Doctor

A man walks through a misty and dark swamp. His face is filled with dirt, blood and tears. The man is scared, strange sounds move all around him as he stumbles through the swamp, water reaching to his waist. In the distance he sees a light, he is getting close but will it be on time? He looks down to his arms, his clothes covered in blood. In his arms he holds the body of his wife, bleeding and barely alive. Desperate times ask for desperate measures, the gods didn't listen to his prayers and sorrow so he sees no other choice.

He is getting closer, the dim light in the mist is close enough for the man to see the silhouette of a small wooden hut behind the light. The light is a lantern, the only light in the swamp, dangling before the wooden door. The man collapses on his knees in front of the door, heart broken and exhausted as he lowers his wife to use one hand to knock on the wooden door.

The door opens with a squeeking sound as a figure with wild hair and a face painted like a skull opens the door, the witch doctor. He smiles as he sees the man in front of his door. The man beg for the life of his wife with his face full of tears. The doctor only smiles and answers "then you know what you must do" as she gives man a small razor sharp dagger. The man doubts but looks down at his wife as he kisses her a final farewell on her forehead. The man cuts his own throat, blood slides down the mans chest as he breathes his last breath. The doctor smiles and starts to softly hum as he rubs his arms pleased. The mans death will not be in vein.

The woman opens her eyes in shock as life runs back through her veins only to see the face of her dead husband, sobbing in his arms as the doctor softly closes his door. This contract has been sealed.

Spirit Well's

Beginning at 2nd level, you've discovered the negative energies within the dead and found a way to put them into good use. You can reuse dead bodies you've found by turning them into a well. The corpse will radiate negative energy in a 15 feet radius sphere. All creatures within the area of effect will be affected. The corpse will radiate for a minute straight. When a well has been activated, the corpse can no long be used to be revived, reanimated or turned into another well. At 2nd level you can choose to use 2 of the following well's:

Well of Blood: Every creature that ends its turn within the well gains health at the end of their turn equal to the casters Charisma Modifier(minimum one).

Well of Blindness: creatures within the range of the well are blinded as long as they stay inside of it.

Well of Darkness: not quite the same as the blindess well, it creates a darkness spell around the corpse.

Well of Ruin: creatures within the range of the well get a decreased Armor Class, losing 2 AC as long as they stay inside the well.

Well of Protection creatures within the range of the well get a increased Armor Class, gaining 2 AC as long as they stay inside the well.

Well of Suffering: creatures within range of the well take damage at the end of their turnequal to the casters Charisma Modifier(minimum one).

Well of Silence: sound is muted within range of the well, no sound comes inside the well or leaves the well. This also means no vocal component for spells.

Well of Profane creatures within range of the well take extra 1d6 necrotic damage when they are damaged within the well. This damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level(4d6).

Well of Misfortune creatures within range of the well have disadvantage on saving throws.

Well of Fortitude creatures within range of the well have advantage on saving throws.

You can choose 2 additional well's when you reach 5th level (4), 11th level (6), and 17th level (8). You may use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier(minimum one) and you regain all uses of this feature at the end of a long rest.

Bloodbag Army

At 6th level, you learn how to use your undead not only as soldiers but as life savers as well. As a action you can deal 2d8 damage to one undead under your control. As long as the undead and a ally are within 30 feet of you, you can heal a creature the damage points you took from your undead. If your undead had less hit points than the damage dealt the targeted creature will only regain the number of hitpoints you undead had left.

Life Leech

At 10th level, you blur the barrier between draining the dead and draining the living. You learn the Vampiric Touch spell, which doesn't count against your number of necromancer spells known. When ever you use the Vampiric Touch spell, you can redirect the health you would gain towards a creature within 30 feet of you. Additionally you can turn undead under your control into walking well's, the undead stay alive as they radiate energy. A undead turned into a well this way can't be turned into a well again.

Unholy Feast

At 14th level, you teach your undead to have a taste for the living. You learn the Life Transference spell, which doesn't count against your number of necromancer spells known. Additionally if your undead deal any damage towards a creature, you regain hit points equal to half the amount of damage dealt.

What do you guys think? Some stuff too over powered or under powered or just flat out strange or annoying? I tried to keep the writing as close to the book as possible but as i stated above english isn't my native language so there are bound to be some mistakes in there. --Mr.Storms (talk) 17:33, 16 September 2019 (MDT)

The spirt well feature is looking pretty good though, I would suggest that the range be reduced back to just a 10 feet radius and make it so that several of the more powerful can not be taken until your a higher necromancer level(namely Wells of Blood, Misfortune, and Fortitude but possibly others).

As for Blood Bag Army, I do really like the idea of dealing damage to your undead to heal, though I believe that this could be balance/flavor wise to consume the energy of the soul of the undead, killing it in the process, and making an ally regain hit points equal to the undead's current hit points. I also believe that the current version of the feature could be reworked to be a weaker and less damaging life transference as to make it deal damage to yourself and allow you to heal an ally that way. Your thoughts?

For Life Leech, it is probably not a good idea to power up a spell that requires a spell slot to be spent to be used. I believe the idea of having an activated aura that makes creatures of your choice close to you take damage and you regain hit points would better suit the idea of stealing the life of others. Here is a mock up of what the feature could look like (As a bonus action, you may emit a life leeching aura in a 30 foot radius around you for 1 minute. You may select any number of creatures to be immune to this aura. All other creatures that start their turn in this aura must make a Constitution saving throw against your necromancer spell save DC. On a failed save, the creature takes 1d4/1d6 necrotic damage and you regain hit points equal to the damage taken. Once you use this feature, you can not use it again until you finish a short or long rest). Besides that though, I like the how you could now turn your undead into wells at this level.

Finally I have no real strong opinion about the Unholy Feast feature, besides the fact that the second part(undead heal you) could be too strong but I don't know if it is.--Blobby383b (talk) 19:00, 18 September 2019 (MDT)

I agree with Blobby about the 3 wells having a level prerequisite on them, as well as making the range 10 feet. I don't grasp the idea of describing the well as negative energy.

This was your inspiration if I remember correctly and I would make this feature like a smite feature: you get two options when you target a corpse. One option as you have outlined here, roughly, and then another that deals damage i.e. corpse explosion! hehe

Life Leech I like the walking well part. I also like Blobby's proposal. Like them, what are thoughts?

I don't like getting health from your undead. You can easily amass an army with other features and effects, next thing you know you could be gaining a lot of HPs sitting back while minions do damamge. Very MMO stuff in my opinion and would like to see that part altered. Maybe temporary hit points? Or another mechanic we can do.

I'm glad you did this though. Great seeing new ideas.   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   10:34, 19 September 2019 (MDT)

From what I've read the whole class looks like a lot of fun, I'll playtest it in the next opportunity I get but I wanted to say Unholy Feast is presently absolutely broken with the way you can heal when your undead deal damage, I recommend using temp hp for that since you can't stack that. Also Silence Well turns off enemy spellcaster and makes stealth checks far more easy, it's situational but in the situations where it's good it's almost broken you might want to put a level prerequisite on that one along with the other three previously mentioned. --47v3ctorlulz (talk) 23:40, 22 September 2019 (MDT)

Witch Doctor v2

Same description found above.

Spirit Well's

Beginning at 2nd level, you've discovered the negative energies within the dead and found a way to put them into good use. As an action, you can turn a corpse you touch into a well of your choice known to you. Afterwards, the corpse will radiate negative energy in a 10 feet radius sphere for 1 minute. All creatures within the area of effect will be affected. When a well has been activated, the corpse can no long be used to be revived, reanimated or turned into another well. At 2nd level you can choose to use 2 of the following well's:

Well of Blood

Prerequisite: 11th level
Every creature that ends its turn within the well gains health at the end of their turn equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum one).

Well of Blindness

Creatures within the range of the well are blinded as long as they stay inside of it.

Well of Darkness

The darkness spell emanates from the corpse for the duration.

Well of Ruin

Creatures within the range of the well get a decreased Armor Class, losing 2 AC as long as they stay inside the well's range.

Well of Protection

Creatures within the range of the well get a increased Armor Class, gaining 2 AC as long as they stay inside the well's range.

Well of Suffering

Prerequisite: 5th level
Creatures within range of the well take damage at the end of their turn equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum one).

Well of Silence

Prerequisite: 5th level
Sound is muted within range of the well, with no sound being allowed to enter or exit the well. Spells with vocal components can not be cast while within range of this well.

Well of Profane

The first time a creature within range of this well takes damage, they take an extra 1d10 necrotic damage. This damage increases by 1d10 when you reach 5th level (2d10), 11th level (3d10), and 17th level(4d10).

Well of Misfortune

Prerequisite: 11th level
Creatures within range of the well have disadvantage on saving throws from magic.

Well of Fortitude

Prerequisite: 11th level
Creatures within range of the well have advantage on saving throws from magic.

You learn how to create additional wells as you level up in this class, increasing at 5th level (4), 11th level (6), and 17th level (8). A level prerequisite for a well refers to your level in this class. You may use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum one) and you regain all uses of this feature at the end of a long rest.

Bloodbag Army

At 6th level, you learn how to use your undead not only as soldiers but as life savers as well. As a action, you kill an undead under your control, absorbing their life essence and soul and transferring that energy to another. As long as the undead and a ally are within 30 feet of you, your ally regains hit points equal to the amount of hit points the undead had.

Life Leech

At 10th level, you blur the barrier between draining the dead and draining the living. As a bonus action, you may emit a life leeching aura in a 30 foot radius around you for 1 minute. You may select any number of creatures to be immune to this aura. All other creatures that start their turn in this aura must make a Constitution saving throw against your necromancer spell save DC. On a failed save, the creature takes 1d4/1d6 necrotic damage and you regain hit points equal to the damage taken. Once you use this feature, you can not use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

Walking Wells

By 10th level, you have also learned how to turn even animated undead into wells. You can turn undead under your control into walking well's, with the undead stay alive as they radiate energy. A undead turned into a well this way can't be turned into a well again.

Placeholder

At 14th level, …

With the recent changes, the witch doctor subclass is getting closer to completion. Though, I would like to find some sort of feature to replace the old 14th level feature as it was probably too powerful and would slow down combat even more than just having a regular necromancer due to all the extra rolls(summoners are already known to slow down combat, so adding more rolls on your turn would exacerbate the problem). Does anyone have any ideas for features?--Blobby383b (talk) 16:15, 3 October 2019 (MDT)

Kudos for the update. This looks and reads wonderful!

How would getting two benefits sounds? My first idea is adding an additional effect to the healing allies get from Bloodbag army, something like advantage on their next saving throw, skill check, or attack roll?

And since that is a conditional effect, something static not to over top. Perhaps, "On your turn, the first time you deal damage with a wand or staff to a creature within range of a well, you deal additional damage equal to your necromancer level."

Also, do the wells deserve clarity? Some of them as written will create friendly fire, or buff enemies. I know as a player I'd love my magic to be smart and be discriminate based on what I want, but what about others?   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   06:29, 4 October 2019 (MDT)

I really like the idea of improving Bloodbag army that way. I would say that the duration doesn't need to be too long as well, how does it lasting "until the end of your ally's next turn" sound?

As for the 2nd ability, I do like the idea of giving the witch doctor some sort of effect that is pretty good, but not too good. I believe that your suggestion is a good starting point, though it is too powerful and relies on the pc obtaining a wand or staff. As such, how does some sort of limited but powerful boost in damage to your spells sound? It would be something along the lines of when you damage a creature with a spell, use a bonus action to deal half of your necromancer level + 1d6/8/10/ect. necrotic damage to the target. With it being usable X number of times(cha mod or static amount) and you regain them all when you finish a long rest.

As for your final suggestion of changing the wells to only affect the targets you want, I think that would be a great change and also happens to corresponds with how wells work in gw2 which this subclass is inspired by. All in all, thanks for the great suggestions.--Blobby383b (talk) 13:07, 7 October 2019 (MDT)

I think that duration is exactly in line with 5e and your idea is much better improvement. 1d6 + half your necromancer level seems in line with similar features, maybe 1d8? And I am also a fan of features with tied into a charge system. If no one updates the article or contests these ideas, I can make the changes after a few days. Just wait to see if there's any objections.   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   12:10, 8 October 2019 (MDT)

Page Edit Suggestion

I suggest changing "Spellcasting Focus" in Class Features to "Arcane Focus" User:Winterknot435 10:39, 23 October 2019 (MDT)

5e SRD:Wizard#Spellcasting. You'll see they are listed the same.   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   12:10, 23 October 2019 (MDT)

Simple fix: Can you fix printing out the necromancy page - the grim harvest takes up 2 pages when you try printing —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.88.4.136 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

I made the variant feature box narrower, please let us know if that doesn't help. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BigShotFancyMan (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Making the box even narrower and getting rid of div doesn't seem to fix the issue when you try and print the class page, so I removed the infobox for now.--Blobby383b (talk) 14:16, 11 December 2019 (MST)

Homebrewery Version

I came across this class recently, and liked it so much that I wanted to create a Homebrewery version of it, which I did, and can be found here. I will try to keep it updated with changes to the page.

Wow it looks really good. Thanks for the adaptation.   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   21:27, 15 December 2019 (MST)

I don't mean to Necro thread the Necro..

But Death's Knowledge - Reaper Subclass: At level 5, does that mean 3 spells that you can cast from any spell list, or 3 spells you can cast from the wizard spell list?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.77.192.247 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

The wording on the feature is a bit confusing, but it meant that you are able to choose any spell to add to your spell list for which you can cast/have spell slots for.--Blobby383b (talk) 16:53, 22 January 2020 (MST)

Terribly sorry to also continue raising this thread from purgatory, but I was wondering if I might be allowed to propose a fifth subclass? The idea is different enough from the existing occults that it is viable as a separate entry, but the concept is fluid enough to be tailored to fit with the base class features, I think. I know this page has been edit-locked, and for good reason, as it's already a well-polished project. But I believe that my suggestion deserves a shot, and I would appreciate the opportunity to present it, for your consideration.

--Loremaster-Nilremon (talk) 04:55, 4 March 2020 (MST)

D&D WIKI is all about community collaboration. I don't think there is any reason to not be able to present an option. WotC has numerous subclass options for their classes so of course lets see it! Red Leg Leo (talk) 07:40, 4 March 2020 (MST)

Well first off, let me say that I've only made my account today, so I'm a bit new to the way things are done on here. Please pardon me for any sloppiness in my presentation.

Moving on, the idea itself is not exactly what one might call original... It is based off of a few different sources, one being the Flesh-Weavers of the online rpg Dragonfable, another the necromancer Elia from the comic True Villains, and finally the work done by another user on here, who based their own necromancer class off of this one, using Elia for some added inspiration.

I'm thinking of calling it "Carrion Tailor", as the point of this one is to mix and match parts of undead creatures.

Replacing AMU with "Flesh Masterpiece", a flesh golem, of sorts. Flesh Masterpiece is a jigsaw puzzle of body parts, aimed at creating an ideal undead servant by putting together increasingly powerful/dangerous pieces of anatomy. As you level up, you can use parts from stronger creatures, as well as add on more and more parts. An example of one complication to making a stronger beast would be trying to add too many limbs. If the creature you started with didn't have the number of limbs you wish to attach, you'd need to replace its head with that of a creature that did, so that it can handle the mental strain of managing multiple limbs. Stuff like that.

You'd be able to augment weaker undead creatures too, but are limited to a number of additional features equal to you proficiency modifier, perhaps? Equip zombies with spikes that pop out of their palms to stab people, give skeletons blades made of bone attached to their arms, that sort of thing.

And from SenixPrime's necromancer class, we have things like being able to fashion weapons out of bone using magic, or assembling armor out of it. Similarly, wearing another creature's skin as a disguise. Maybe even animating your bone armor later on, so that it can help you equip it, like Armor of Donning.

The point is experimentation and tinkering, whether with other's bodies or your own. At least, that's the general concept... What do you think?

--Loremaster-Nilremon (talk) 09:00, 4 March 2020 (MST)

Think Frankenstein, but with magic! (And on crack...)

--Loremaster-Nilremon (talk) 10:05, 4 March 2020 (MST)

If I may summarize, and I hope I don't over do it, an undead augmenter? If that is the case, this would require a lot of forethought and careful consideration. It reminds me a fleshgrafters or even WotC's Artificer class that took years to balance. It something that provides multitude of options and different possibilities. I personally avoid these on the wiki, they tend to over do damage, or utility, or both. If you wanna put it together, I haven't declined to help a wikian ever and won't stop. Another note is, these ideas become very cumbersome with heavy reading. I don't find much wiki articles fun to read :-( Red Leg Leo (talk) 12:47, 4 March 2020 (MST)

Alright, I'll try to keep it as simple as possible, while maintaining as much flexibility as I can.

Monstrous Grafting

Starting at 2nd level, you are able to channel negative energy to forcefully fuse both flesh and bone. Taking an hour to do so for each new feature, you can change out or add new bodyparts to an undead under your control. You can only add a number of new features to an individual undead equal to your proficiency modifier, and can only perform such procedures that many times a day without taking levels of exhaustion. You are also limited to only attaching pieces from creatures one size larger or smaller than the undead you are grafting it to. At this point, the options available to you are limited by your experience in grafting bodyparts:

• Claws (Choose one option)
  • Add 1d4 slashing damage to unarmed attacks
  • 20ft. digging speed
  • 20ft. climbing speed
• Horns (Enables 1d6 piercing headbutt attack)
• Replacement limb
  • One size class larger, +1 to Strength score, cannot increase Strength past 20
  • One size class smaller, +1 to Dexterity score, cannot increase Dexterity past 20
• Tail (Choose one option)
  • Heavy (+1 to balance checks, 1d4 bludgeoning)
  • Prehensile (+1 to climbing checks, can hang by it)
  • Barbed (1d6 piercing, and can make attacks with it as a bonus action)

At 5th level, you gain the ability to perform more complicated procedures, as well as raise new undead with any two of the first tier grafts. The new options are as follows:

• Gliding Wings (Double jump distance, resistance to fall damage)
• Webbed Feet (30ft. swim speed)
• Retractible Bone Arm-Blades (1d8 slashing, takes a successful Intelligence (nature) check against your spell save DC to find them while hidden)

At 11th level, you reach the pinnacle of grafting experience, and can graft a number of new features onto your Major Undead equal to double the amount for other undead you control:

• Additional Arm (+1 extra attack for each new arm)
• Flight Wings (30ft. fly speed, resistance to fall damage)
• Second Head (Advantage on perception checks, disadvantage to stealth)

Gruesome Utility

Starting at 6th level, you can use an action to create weapons out of an inanimate corpse's bones. At a range of touch, you can instantly fashion a femur club, a humerus dagger, a spinal-cord whip, or a rib-cage shield from the remains of a humanoid no smaller than Medium size. The shield is only good for 10 missed attacks against you, at which point it will disintegrate. These weapons use the stats from the PHB, and if you normally are not proficient with these weapon types, you are as long as you use the ones created with this feature. You can also fuse bone into your armor if it is leather, permanently adding an additional point of AC to this armor set. This feature can only be used a number of times equal to your charisma modifier, until you've taken a long rest.

Bloody Adaptation

At 10th level, you gain the ability to magically strip off your own skin, and replace it with that of a fresh body by casting alter self. So long as you are about the same size and have the same arrangement of limbs, you appear to any observer as the person whose skin you wear, and only those who know the person you're impersonating will be able to tell that something is odd about you. Anyone whose suspicion is raised though, can identify you as an imposter with a successful Intelligence (investigation) check against your spell save DC. Unlike using alter self's disguise effect, this lasts as long as you wish to wear the skin. Over the course of a number of days equal to your Charisma modifier, the skin will become taut and pale, indicating that there is something wrong with you. Only putting your own back on (if it hasn't decayed) will allow you to appear normal until you reach 18th level. Unless you use gentle repose to preserve them, any discarded skins will decompose as normal, including yours.

As some additional benefits, any bone weapons you create after reaching this level are magic weapons with a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls. And with a casting of animate dead, you can animate your bone-plated armor, giving it another point of AC as well as the ability to assist you in putting it on, much like Armor of Donning.

Dreadful Augmentation

When you reach 14th level, experimenting with minions is no longer enough for you. You can now graft yourself with any 5th-level or lower bodyparts.

So it maaay be a bit wordy, but it definantly could've been worse... Obviously this may need some significant re-working, but for a first try, I think I did alright. Whatcha think of it?

--Loremaster-Nilremon (talk) 18:17, 4 March 2020 (MST)

Apologies for the mixup when I posted all of this. Apparently I took so long that the site logged me out without me realizing, so I ended up posting it anonymously... Managed to fix it, though.

--Loremaster-Nilremon (talk) 11:45, 6 March 2020 (MST)

I have to apologize for not responding sooner, and it is simply because I don't enjoy these plug and play builds. I designed a homebrew like this style elsewhere, and have reviewed others like it and the balance is painstakingly dreadful to get through because each choice can affect a facet of many different options. Have you attempted play testing with subclass idea yet? Red Leg Leo (talk) 13:26, 20 April 2020 (MDT)

Sorry for the double post, I was looking and recall reading it. I just didn't see the uniqueness in the subclass. I see extra damage, and ASIs. Then a shapechange (wrong spell I know) type effect and create weapons from body parts. I do think a skin grafter body part attacher would be in the realm of a necromancer, but deserves more justice than this. I don't own the page certainly but would recommend any community collaboration on this idea to be more in depth. Remember 5e philosophy is about utility and not just handing out damage. So when brainstorming features, what might something do vs how can I hurt it more. I really enjoy 5e for this because it helps flesh out roleplay. Hopefully we can work on that. Red Leg Leo (talk) 13:41, 20 April 2020 (MDT)

Hello again. After reading your reply, I realized you were absolutely right! Most of the customization options consisted of either straight-up damage boosts, or ASI's, and that's honestly quite boring... So! After having taken some time to mull things over and rethink my approach, I believe my new design will stand out better and truly capture that mad-scientist/wizard vibe that I'd originally intended. However, if this draft does not show promise, then I shall not be making any further attempts to push this subclass. Now, would it be alright if I simply edit my original presentation, rather than write up a whole new one and stretch this discussion even more?

--Loremaster-Nilremon (talk) 04:32, 22 May 2020 (MDT)

It would certainly keep the already bogged down talk from getting more clutter but it wouldn't help true to how things work. We'll see about another way to clean things up but feel free to share :) Red Leg Leo (talk) 07:18, 22 May 2020 (MDT)

Well, one last thing before I begin the long and arduous process of writing up the new outline. What are your thoughts on the skin-wearing and equipment-making abilities I put in the first version? I rather like those concepts still, but I'd also like to know if you think they're actually worth keeping in any capacity. --Loremaster-Nilremon (talk) 08:10, 22 May 2020 (MDT)

Improved Animation

I think I avoided something like this because the class has baked in Necro bonuses. I feel that the class is already on the stronger side of things. You get full spell casting to compete with any wizard, along with an undead army. You gotta spend some slots to maintain these creeps, but I didn't think anything beyond skellies and zomz needed a buff. Did playtesting show different results? What scenarios were involved that the feature came up short? I don't have test play answers for not making the change to be transparent. Red Leg Leo (talk) 20:32, 17 April 2020 (MDT)

Play-testing it myself (at tier 3 right now with my necromancer in my weekly campaign), I would say it needs to be applied to the higher CR undead because, as it stands, they aren't worth the slots to summon/maintain them. Thank the gods for Ritualistic Unburial at 14 for only having to spend a little over an hour to get a relatively small cadre of decent skeletons without expending slots. Why should I spend a 7 or 8th level spell slot to summon a 4/5 ghouls/ghasts when their +2/+5 only hits for less than a quarter of the time and deals on average 7/10 damage? Not to say that, to a hulking amount of creatures the save they roll against is laughable. Wights are slightly better: when they hit 1/4 of the time, they actually have a 13DC Con save that can negate some healing.

Since level 1 (we're 15 now) I've had undead fighting for me in a tiny fraction of fights. After my first few enormous armies (12 or so skeletons) died instantly to weak AoEs, I realized spells like Slow, Sickening Radiance, Hold Monster, Mirror Image, Prismatic Spray--numerous other spells are more worthy of the higher-level spell slots and are more likely to affect the battlefield. The argument could be made that it's overpowered to have such an enormous army with +9 to hit all fighting but I haven't ever been able to make an enormous army. You can't have a huge army of undead wandering the realm at your beck and call because that's something evil people do and evil people get hunted down. So I've had maybe 4-5 skeletons sometimes raised mid-fight and maybe 1 survives to fight in the next battle. I raised two wights with Create Undead and my new level 8 spell slot ahead of a fight and between the two of them, they hit twice... total. I could've cast Dominate Monster, an upcast Disintegrate, any number of the other my (limited) known spells that would've completely changed the layout of the battlefield and had more effect than those two wights. A +4 to hit is good when fighting a group of four lvl 3 adventurers (CR3 after all) but it's not when fighting a CR18. They need to scale up alongside their skeleton/zombie counterparts. They were just two standing pieces of meat that provided some flanking. That's about it.

The lack of capability to actually bring a large army to bear, the lack of scaling with the more "powerful" undead of said minuscule army, and the ease with which to get rid of said army aside, (I'll admit, lvl 14 Undertaker feature, Lord of the Undead, has helped my skeletons no longer be a laughing stock among the table), it just doesn't make sense that the other Undertaker buffs affect all your undead but this one specifies those two types. It seems such an odd singling out.

As another aside, I think Lord of the Undead should also allow for Spontaneous Unburial to make your Create Undead be cast as an action instead of a 1-minute ritual. That's just me but it makes it a lot more combat viable just like it makes Animate Undead. TexasTies (talk) 00:37, 18 April 2020 (MDT)

This is the types of feedback the site is in desperate need for. This is remarkable insight to the class, and very valuable since you've played it through so many levels. I don't really even have questions because you've included so much detail here. The key detail for me is the practicality of amassing an undead army and keeping it around full time. That it isn't possible and any concern is moot. That the only way to play is raise a corpse in midst of combat and go from there. I am just jealous you've had this opportunity (since I only DM at this point and can't honestly carry THIS necro homebrew through many levels). You are quite an expert on the class.

Regarding the "create undead" being an action, test play it and see how your group likes it. I am not sure it is a crazy idea either and seems in line with other features.

I suppose one question is how does this relate to other classes? I am familiar with no class being balanced against another class but I still personal like to make sure homebrew doesn't outshine core. Can you give any great detail the other classes being played and how they are coping not being as awesome? (jk lol) Red Leg Leo (talk) 13:26, 20 April 2020 (MDT)

Some more clarification for the Witch Doctor?

"Beginning at 2nd level, you've discovered the negative energies within the dead and found a way to put them into good use. As an action, you can turn a corpse you touch into a well of your choice known to you. Afterwards, the corpse will radiate negative energy in a 10 feet radius sphere for 1 minute." Usually, in DND, it's called something like necrotic. Is this "negative" energy evil/good/anything on an alignment? Could it be detected by spells or paladins who can sense evil or desecration? WithALaserBeam (talk)

The way I understand this is that negative is a general term. The effects from the well are negative. So its just a descriptor term and the kind of well details the negative energy. Red Leg Leo (talk) 08:43, 2 June 2020 (MDT)

summmoning undead

Hey, so a little confused on how summoning undead at lv 1 - 3 works i am not sure if i should just have 1 undead or what can i have some help on this?

This class does not allow you to summon undead sooner than any other class. You can summon undead at 5th level. Red Leg Leo (talk) 12:27, 10 September 2020 (MDT)

Playtesting feedback

So hi!

I'm currently playing this class with the undertaker subclass in a game, currently at lvl 3. While planning my build I feel as though this class is underwhelming as far as pre level 5 goes. Especially since as far as I can tell it has the lowest cantrip and known spells out of all the full spellcaster classes. With that said I believe this class would benefit from another trait at level 1 or 3. My idea would be choosing a trait to help diversify spell effects or change how the class functions like invocations or metamagic. Something like making your melee spell attacks ranged or temporarily taking on undead features. I would also say have a permanent undead minion instead, but it looks like that was removed earlier in this class's development. Thoughts?

When compared to the wizard, I feel like this has more going for it. Wizard gets nothing when gaining new spell levels whereas this class gets something, even if it is minor. Red Leg Leo (talk) 11:12, 27 January 2021 (MST)

Hello !

I am also playing this class in a campaign but using the keeper ocult. The only change we made was the spellcasting ability that is changed to intelligence because it fitted more to my character (and it fits well with the keeper description of a doctor studying death). I am currently at level 4 and I have a lot of fun playing this class. Life on demand is very usefull but not overpowered because it consumes the hit dies. Many cool feature will comes in the next levels and I am looking forward to it. However, I noticed an inconsistency at 6th level (Expanded Intellect). Among the new spells to be added in the spell list there is "Feign death", it is weird because it is already in the necromancer spell list (wich is the wizard spell list). Maybe it would be better to replace this spell by another one. Since there are already two 3rd level spells that are added and only one at 1st and 2nd level, maybe we could replace it by healing word, prayer of healing or healing spirit ? --Salamy (talk) 18:56, 27 September 2023 (MDT)

Hello - if anyone still is here. I have used this homebrew class many times for about half a year, I think. Thank you to everyone who has made contributions to this class, because I was finally able to create my dream character concept! I have play tested this a lot, and I always lean more towards the reaper occult as a player (mainly to be nice to my DM with combat & not make it a slog), but I have also been able to use this as a DM too. The stuff here seems pretty balanced, so I wouldn’t change much here. I really like almost everything about the class, but kind of wish there was more spells that the necromancer could know. Is that still debatable? But anyways, if anybody is still here who helped make this class, thank you. With this I am able to make my favorite PC: Ammon Illuskan. By the way, I kind of want to try my hand at making this homebrew class in the style of a 5.5 player’s handbook class. Does anybody want to help? I am probably going to take a long time to adjust a few things like balancing the class with the new spells, or figuring out class features that work with the animate dead spell. Any help would be nice. Showgun (talk) 14:07, 10 October 2024 (MDT)

So I have started working on the 5.5 copy page, here is the link: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Necromancer(variant_for_5.5)(5e_Class)

Any help with working on this would be appreciated! Showgun (talk) 17:31, 3 November 2024 (MST)

Spelling

You have the witch doctor's Spirit Wells misspelled as Spirit Well's in a number of places. "Well's" is possessive, as in, "This is the spirit well's radius." "Wells" is plural, as in, "You get a number of spirit wells." You never add an apostrophe to a non-possessive plural word.

You could fix the issue if you want. Just hit the edit button on the header where the mistakes are, and remove the apostrophes. --SwankyPants (talk) 16:18, 17 August 2021 (MDT)

Featured Article Nomination

I really think this 5e dnd class is a diamond in the rough. I have used this page longer than I have had a dnd homebrew account, and I really think that this a great class that should be official. I am a new user, and I don’t know a lot about how to use this website properly, but I think that more people should know about this. Does anybody agree with this? —Showgun (talk) 17:58, 3 November 2024 (MST)

Oppose — , I really love the flavor of this class, its very detailed and its abilities reflect exactly how you would conventionally think a necromancer would operate. However, I have some serious balance concerns when it comes to this class. Firstly, the fact that it gets an ability at almost every level while also being a full caster is concerning to me. And these abilities aren't just flavor either. Because of how many ways a necromancer has to restore hit points or gain temporary hit points, they are not going to be as squishy as you would expect a full spellcaster to be. Secondly, they have light armor proficiency. This would be fine if it was from a subclass designed to be balanced around it, but all Necromancers have light armor. Thirdly, some abilities are just not written how you would expect in 5e. For example, Well of Blood uses the wording "gains health" rather than "restores/regains hit points" (and this isn't a one-off thing). Fourthly, Animate Major Undead is extremely exploitable. Forgetting the fact you could raise a dead party member, then bring them back with a spell that can create a new body (such as reincarnate), the ability to bring back opponents, potentially spellcasters, is very unbalancing. Lastly, there's pretty noticeable power disparities between the subclasses (and other 5e classes in general). Not to throw shade on Keeper, but Reapers are getting a nearly endless supply of 3rd level spell slots at 6th level (just by killing enough things, which can include weak beasts like rats, bats, or chickens) and Witch Doctor's Spirit's Well is extremely overpowered. Many effects have no save, and Well of Blood fully heals the party as well as all your undead servants.

However, if all of these issues are addressed, I would agree that this class should be a Featured Article. Its iconic! --Woahluigi (talk) 19:37, 20 November 2024 (MST)

So about the inf spell slots the reapers get for 3rd lvl spell slots at 6th lvl, I think it isn’t really an issue because it is very situational. I think that because of the limited spells known, along with what the dm allows and throws at the player, it could either be as bad as you say, but in my experience playing with this a lot it isn’t a very big game breaking feature. As for the limited spells known being a reason to this, what I mean by that is because there are not a lot of spells available to keep, you would have to be very selective about what spells you take so you don’t find yourself in trouble. So taking fireball + a lot of power farm spells to take advantage of the inf spell slots, like animate undead would not only annoy a dm, but could make the player find themself stuck where they needed to take different spells to get out of it (I can’t think of an example as I’m writing this sorry). But I do see your point. Maybe it should only work when the creature the necromancer kills was hostile to them? Or maybe the creature the necromancer kills has to be the small type size or bigger? Or maybe both?

As for the other problems like raising spell casters for undead spell casters, maybe it needs to just be specifically addressed but could be a potential feature (but definitely nerfed). Maybe the undead spell caster gets to keep half of their cantrips, and can cast only 1st through 3rd lvl spells they had depending on their previous highest spell lvl divided by 3 (rounded down) before they died. For the other problems you addressed about how some features were written poorly, I don’t really have an opinion on that. Looking into the witch doctor spirit wells, I personally don’t really see a lot of problems as some of the wells have lvl prerequisites and only last for a little while. But about the light armor proficiency, it could be changed, it only makes a difference of 1 or 2 points of AC.

But I am not an admin so I can’t really do much about any of these things. I can only offer my opinions and thoughts. What do you think about all of this? Showgun (talk) 13:25, 24 November 2024 (MST)

Ok, here's every change I would make, which in my opinion, would put necromancer in a much more balanced state. I'm sure I missed something, but this is what I thought of on short notice. --Woahluigi (talk) 19:50, 24 November 2024 (MST)

1. General Changes: Improved wording to make this class feel more like an official DND 5e option. When multiclassing, you get a skill proficiency instead of light armor.
2. Proficiencies/Equipment: Remove Light Armor proficiency and remove armor from equipment
3. Life Tap: Removed. Replace this feature with an extended spell list for necromancers. Example of what that list might look like: (Cantrips) Toll the Dead, (1st) Inflict Wounds and Sculpt Corpse (5e Spell), (2nd) Raise Mount (5e Spell) and Withering Ray (5e Spell), (3rd) Animate Dead and Black Flame (5e Spell), (4th) Shadow of Moil and Death March (5e Spell), (5th) Contagion and Enlighten Undead (5e Spell).
4. Soul Harvest: Reworked. When you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hp with a spell of 1st level or higher, you gain some number of temporary hit points. The amount is doubled if you kill a creature with a necromancy spell. Usable a # of times equal to your charisma mod.
5. Spontaneous Unburial: This feature no longer grants animate dead. It is otherwise unchanged.
6. Animate Major undead: Reworked to become an 11th level ability. When you cast Animate Dead, you can animate your Major Undead instead. Restrictions are set on what you can summon (humanoid or beast only), the creature has its mental statistics reduced, and loses legendary resistances/actions, spellcasting, and resistances/immunties. You can either summon a zombie or skeletal version of a creature, which imparts specific changes to that creature's statistics. At higher levels, CR goes up, and you gain the ability to affect Monstrosities, then Giants.
7. Ritualist Unburial: Changed to become Necromancer's 20th level ability, since it allows them to create nearly infinite undead armies.
8. Macabre: Reworked to become a 16th level feature. Grants resistance to poison damage, and advantage on saving throws against exhaustion, poison, disease, or becoming frightened.
9. Seance/Grim Harvest: This feature and its variant are removed. Seance is effectively replaced with Animate Major Undead, and Grim Harvest is unnecessary.

Occult Changes

1. Life on Demand: Reworked. There is no limit to the amount of times you can use this feature. Also, it should grant less healing than a short rest, effectively being a quick (but worse) short rest. Does not improve at 6th level.
2. Expanded Intellect: Formatted better. You get each spell when you unlock a spell slot of their level. Also, you don't get any 3 spells of your choice.
3. Aura of Wellbeing: Reworked. You can use your action to restore hit points to creature in a # radius surrounding you, and grant them temporary HP as well. You can do so a number of times equal to your Charisma Modifier.
4. Refusal: Range increase, and you can use it again by expended a spell slot of 4th level or higher.
5. Death's Knowledge: Reworked to become a 6th level ability, like keeper's Expanded Knowledge. Instead, Reapers 2nd level ability allows them to target 2 creatures within 5 feet of each other with a necromancy cantrip that would normally target one creature (See Death Domain Clerics).
6. Improved Soul Harvest: Reworked. This feature now allows you to expend temporary hit points to deal extra damage with your spells. Combos with Soul Harvest.
7. Grim: Reworked. This feature now allows you to target multiple creatures when you cast a necromancy spell of 5th level or lower (just like a Reaper's 2nd level feature). Can only be used a number of times equal to your Charisma Modifier.
8. Unholy Resistance: Reworked. This feature now gives you proficiency with light armor, and causes you to be ignored by undead unless you attack them.
9. Improved Animated: This feature is formatted better.
10. Undead Resolve: Reworked. This feature now grants you a 30 foot aura, which gives your undead the following benefits while they remain within that aura: Immunity to Turn Undead, Attacks become Magical, bonus to saving throws equal to your Charisma Mod.
11. Lord of the Undead: When using Animate Dead, you can now summon a Ghoul or a Specter instead of a Skeleton or Zombie.
12. Spirit's Well: Balancing. The Available Well options need to be balanced. For example, Well of Blood should be Temp HP, and most affects need a saving throw. Also, some effects (like direct AC modification) need to just be removed and replaced with something else. Additionally, creatures can attack wells to destroy them, and it is made clear that you can carry one well on your shoulder when you activate it. When the well effect ends, the corpse turns to dust.
13. Bloodbag Army: Wording updated. Makes it clear you can only heal other, living creatures. Otherwise unchanged.
14. Life Leech: Replaced. Your Wells now restore HP to your Undead, but only while they are within the radius. Also, the range of your wells increase at this level (10 ft -> 30 feet).
15. Walking Wells: Remains unchanged, but combined with the other 10th level feature into one ability. Also, your undead dies when its well effect ends.
16. Necrotic Pulse: Replaced. You can cause your wells to detonate early, dealing a large amount of necrotic damage to creatures of your choice within their radius.

That’s a lot of stuff! The fact that you came up with that all on a short notice is really impressive! So I looked at your suggestions for the changes, and I don’t think that it is going to be easy to get all those edits in with the page being protected and all without an admin. Maybe we should create a copy of the page, to get the edits in? Or would it be better to send a message to a random admin to request the changes? Personally, I feel like it would be a good idea to make a variant page and get a few other people to contribute their opinions on if none/some/most/all of the new edits are needed. Showgun (talk) 14:12, 25 November 2024 (MST)

Support — I updated the whole class, including adding in a custom spell list. I definitely like the place its in now. --Woahluigi (talk) 01:48, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I’m not really sure about changing any of the features right now, because this entire discussion has been between me and you, and no one else. Also, the page had a message about not changing anything because it was already deemed balanced. So, what I propose is that no changes are made until there is more discussion with more people (and possibly an admin?). What do you think? Showgun (talk) 20:19, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Uh, I kinda already made all of my changes... but I did discuss with some people on the D&D wiki discord regarding feedback and certain abilities! This included talking with Admins, (such as Yanied) regarding how a custom spell list for necromancer should be formatted. The tag asking for no further changes was nearly 5 years old, and personally I think that all it did was keep this page in a semi-incomplete state for a long period of time. Feel free to go through the page, see what I've done, and add the tag asking for no changes again if you want. In my eyes, my work here is done. --Woahluigi (talk) 23:18, 6 December 2024 (UTC)