Talk:Martial Artist (Dragon Ball Supplement)

Archives
Archive 1 (Fulfilled Requests) Archive 2 (Clarified Clarification) Archive 3 (Executed Major Changes) Archive 4 (Other Archived Discussions)

Requests

Want to see anything included in this class? Leave a request below and it will at least be considered.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:03, 15 November 2021 (MST)

Wondering if you could make ultra ego, and merged techniques like final Kamehameha and big bang Kamehameha. I'm also thinking about slightly nerfing ki cloak as it gives characters a super Saiyan equivalent bonus to attacks, with the same rate of ki consumption, and much earlier and easier to obtain, in addition with the sword mastery feat it becomes a +3 bonus. P@uL (talk) 15:19, 18 March 2022 (MDT)

Seeing the recent changes to Ki Cloak, characters that use weapons are now always at a 1 ki point disadvantage at the start of their turn with almost no benefit, as weapons will rarely deal more damage than unarmed strikes and most serve no extra purpose beyond fluff. Sure, it was strong, but there should be at least one reason to pick it up beyond "I use weapons and have no other choice". --SwankyPants (talk) 22:02, 20 March 2022 (MDT)

In the main source, not many characters are seen using weapons, but those that do are either very skilled in their use or their weapons are special in some case, I was hoping to make it so that it doesn't become something that everyone will want to have otherwise it will turn into Bleach, I think it's okay if the character in question has the blade mastery feat which would give them a +1 bonus to attack at all times they use the weapon, or if it's magical they would benefit from its special effects while retaining their unarmed strike's damage. P@uL (talk) 01:50, 21 March 2022 (MDT)

I think Kaioken should scale a bit better with higher levels. Something like getting a +1 in your Strength and Dexterity per every level of Kaioken, instead of just being a static +1. Getting a speed boost of an extra +5 feet really isn't worth losing that much HP. If you don't want it to be that strong, it could be every other level, rounding up. --DrGuest (talk) 17:43, 6 April 2022 (MDT)

Kaioken is already intended to give a +1 per every level of kaioken as in kaioken two times would give a +2, is that what you meant or did I misread your idea? P@uL (talk) 03:13, 7 April 2022 (MDT)

It does? The only thing I read under the Kaioken technique is this:

• Your Strength and Dexterity increase by +1.

Which doesn't entail an increase per level, since the first listed attribute reads:

• Your movement speed are increased by 5 feet per level of Kaioken.

Or, with the downside:

• At the end of each of your turns, you lose 10 maximum hit points per level of kaioken.

I guess if it should do this, it should be specified. --DrGuest (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2022 (MDT)

The wording was fixed, thanks for pointing that out. P@uL (talk) 01:14, 9 April 2022 (MDT)

Is there anything for orange form planned?

Not as of now but I'll take a look eventually P@uL (talk) 19:26, 23 April 2023 (MDT)

I think would be good make a "Path" of the Limite Breaker SSJ4 from the Dragon Ball Heroes, as the Limite Breaker is a counterpart to match the blue and divine forms (I can see you using Mortal God + SSJ4 to mimic Limite Breaker SSJ4. but it would be good to have the "evolutions" of SSJ4). Thank you anyway and have a nice day :D Request By: Midalos[[1]] 13:42, 04/July 2023 (MDT)

With the little that I've come to know about this form, as you said, SSJ4 + Mortal God could be a decent way to represent this due to the fact initially it seems to handle what their blue counterparts couldn't, but as of now I don't have enough knowledge about this or anything in super dragon ball heroes in particular to make the best judgement, so I'll get back to this and see if it really needs another form after I learn more.

P@uL (talk) 12:15, 4 July 2023 (MDT)

Clarifications

Confused by something, or at least feel like something works a way it shouldn't? Let us know here and we'll get back to you!

So when you have both a form and base active, you maintain upkeep for both correct? UI and MUI for example. Deducted (talk) 12:11, 15 November 2021 (MST)

That is correct.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:19, 15 November 2021 (MST)

Does full power give a bonus to the raw roll or the total? Because if it's the total I think it's already almost insignificant at the level it's earned? P@uL (talk) 16:28, 7 January 2022 (MST).

I'm pretty sure that's what was decided on, that it's just meant to apply to the roll itself and not as a modifier. More consistent hits over stronger hits essentially. Could use a wording tweak for it. --SwankyPants (talk) 16:36, 7 January 2022 (MST)

You can only use absorption once and can't again as long as thr creature is still absorbed by you? I think if that's the case it should be counted as a transformation so that it can be bypassed with Grade 4 transformation. P@uL (talk) 06:43, 12 January 2022 (MST)

Seems to be the intent there too. As for being a transformation, I don't know of any other near permanent ones like that, but it could be a supplemental technique with no upkeep, although I'm concerned by the possible abuse of then absorbing literally everything in sight for stupid high ability scores, since techniques surpass your normal limits. Like, if you really wanted to, you could absorb HUNDREDS of rabbits and throw your Dexterity through the roof. --SwankyPants (talk) 07:21, 12 January 2022 (MST)

Then how about after the first creature you may only benefit from absorption two more times? Probably also adding some close to your CR/Level limit. Just trying to figure out something in order for things like perfect cell and Super Buu Gohan absorbed to be possible. P@uL (talk) 09:30, 12 January 2022 (MST)

Hm, I suppose that it would need to get circumvented somehow, but I don't quite think transformation would be the way. Perhaps you can take it multiple times, allowing you to absorb an amount equal to the amount of times you've taken it? Could go for modifiers or something, like (DC - 18)/2 (minimum 1). I'm not too sure on power scaling or anything so this might need a lil' more thinkin'. --SwankyPants (talk) 10:18, 12 January 2022 (MST)

I like what you're going for, but stats eventually become way too big they would be able to absorb over 17 creatures with that. So I think (proficieny bonus-3)/2 may be more appropriate, it also aligns itself pretty good with the levels where the villains are supposed to be and the number of creatures they absorbed. P@uL (talk) 11:01, 12 January 2022 (MST)

Yeah, that seems good to me, too. 4 for Super Buu, if we stick with the big table on the bestiary talk page, 6 for a 60th level creature. Feel free to throw that in. --SwankyPants (talk) 11:30, 12 January 2022 (MST)

So in regards to grade 4 transformation and kaioken, does the 10 max hp lost per level of kaioken count as a maintenance cost or is able to be ignored via grade 4 and only have to play the measly 5 max hp per level to use it? Thanks again and sorry if the formatting is weird this is my first time attempting to use a wiki discussion page. Also great work on this supplement to everyone involved!

Hello there Phaelt, just put four tildes after your message and then the signature and date will automatically come up, the 10 maximum hp lost at the end of each of your turns does indeed count as a maintenance cost or else with it just being a meager 5 maximum hp per level spent at the beginning and nothing else, you could theoretically keep a kaioken boost forever with no further cost, thanks for the encouragement and I hope that you feel free to discuss about or edit in anything you think is missing and could be implemented, the more hands we have the better.

P@uL (talk) 03:58, 20 July 2022 (MDT)

Thank you for the warm welcome, ive been running a campaign and we just finished the third session and we have some questions about how certain things work, mostly regarding techniques and charging. with how techniques work, are you able to combine techniques and use multiple in one round? for example, at level 6, are you able to use flurry of blows, and critical upper on all 4 attacks? also with how charging works are you able to charge and progressively add more Ki into it once its fully charged or must i decide before i use the ability on how much i put into it and i must use that much? for example, if i charge Kamehameha for the required 2 rounds, can i then decide to charge it an additional round right then and there and go for 3 round charge and i just knock off an extra 1 ki, or is it going to remain a 2 round charged Kamehameha no matter how long i hold it because i decided the amount of ki used at the beginning of the charge? Sorry if i overlooked something on the page regarding this but i took a real long look and couldn't find it. Thanks again --Phaelt (talk) 21:00, 29 July 2022 (MDT)

• I don't believe we set a limit on how many techniques you can use a turn, so in theory you could use every different Ki Blast upgrade in a single turn.
• When you use a technique, you can't alter it afterwards in any way that the technique itself doesn't allow. You can choose the effects of Karma Absorption, but you can't bounce between the ability score increases of Super Mortal God, and you can't spend more ki on a Kamehameha. For future reference, if something goes unmentioned, the answer to most questions about it is probably "no".

Hope that helps. --SwankyPants (talk) 21:09, 29 July 2022 (MDT)

As SwankPants had said, nothing in the class mentions that you might increase the ki of a charging technique per round.

But i personally never thought about it that way, and in the campaign I've been DMing over a year since this class got running, I handled it in the way you had mentioned, adding ki per round at your choice, and it seems much more reasonable to me that it be that way to be honest, but it's just a DM choice.

About techniques, the only limit to use them are the actions you spent (except for techniques which don't specify an action), and your ki points. If you meet those two requirements, you should be able to do it. P@uL (talk) 22:56, 29 July 2022 (MDT)

Regarding Transformation upgrades, when it says the benefits of previous upgrades carry over, does that include detriments? Also, when it says in grade 4 that you can ignore any effects of the transformation... What does that mean? What could I ignore? FrickyDiBoop (talk) 16:38, 6 September 2022 (MDT)

All effects, beneficial or detrimental, should be gained (effects should probably replace benefits). If a transformation does anything, it allows you to forgo it (useful examples of this would be forgoing Grade 3's Dexterity decrease, Purple Comet Hurricane decreasing your movement speed, the Frost Demon transformations changing your size category) as long as it is not the technique having an adjective (detailed under Transformations) or the technique having a maintenance cost, as stated in Grade 4.--Ref3rence (talk) 18:37, 6 September 2022 (MDT)

All effects, go as Reference has mentioned, "All benefits" mean only the beneficial effects, such as str increase but not ki consumption.

P@uL (talk) 10:44, 7 September 2022 (MDT)

Hey what does the android transformation mean with the exhaustion cost, is it permanent or what or?

Exhaustion goes away on a long rest as always, it's just there to make rapid learning/unlearning less abuseable. --SwankyPants (talk) 00:49, 16 October 2022 (MDT)

Now that my summer break is almost here, I've been thinking about putting in some work here and there from time to time, is there something in particular any of you suggest I should work on? I myself have one idea, should I rebuild the existent characters in the bestiary to go along with the many differences in the rules made since they were created? P@uL (talk) 13:26, 22 May 2023 (MDT) Is it possible to make homebrew transformations and moves or naw- killshot

Generally the things that are already in the class should be good enough, you could change around the requirements or use them as a guideline.

For example, if you wanted to homebrew a transformation for an alien race you made using the rubber forehead alien template, you could take the super saiyan forms, change the requirement to that race and just make some cosmetic changes or add +2 to a stat bonus while reducing another by 2, that's just one suggestion. Generally just use what you have here as guidelines for your homebrew in your campaign, the sky is your limit. P@uL (talk) 03:15, 12 November 2023 (MST)

Major Changes

Want to change something fundamental to the page? It'll be a hard sell, but there's no reason your thoughts shouldn't be heard out. Just be prepared to change some creatures.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:03, 15 November 2021 (MST)

Charged techniques become extremely insignificant in favor of unarmed strikes at later level, any remedy for that? Maybe you can reduce the unarmed damage? Charging seems so useless unless you have multiple allies, because even then the opponent can just move out of range due to you being unable to move at all even if it's charged. P@uL (talk) 15:04, 18 March 2022 (MDT)

A while back I thought there could maybe be an "enhanced charging" feat, making those kinda techniques more usable in a proper fight, instead of just cinematic types of things. It seemed like an incredible pain to balance, so I ended up deciding against it, although maybe it could be rolled into something. My immediate idea was that it would allow you to reduce the time by X to a minimum of 1, X either being an ability modifier divide something, or just a flat 2. Able to be taken multiple times, although that's where I get concerned about balance again. --SwankyPants (talk) 22:17, 20 March 2022 (MDT)

I have an idea, what if, we do something along the lines of

Enhanced Charging

At XXth level, when you charge a technique, you may accelerate the process by giving up conservation and carefulness in exchange for a more immediate attack, overcharging your attack with ki, When you charge a technique with a charging time of at least 1 round and a ki cost, you may double its ki cost to consider it charged for one round, you may do this additional times at once as many times as your Proficieny bonus divided by 3 rounded down in one technique, it still must pass initiative 20 to be considered fully charged.

So for example, I'll use Frieza's stat sheet in the bestiary.

Frieza is in his suppressed form with a total ki of 29. Frieza begins charging supernova which costs 5 ki points, but he wants to charge it faster. He has a proficiency bonus of 7 so he can use enhanced charging twice in one technique. So he doubles the ki cost making it 10, and doubles it again making it 20. Now he's charged a supernova with a damage of 3d12+42 and waits until initiative 20 before he can launch it.

Another example with Namek saga Goku.

Goku has 27 ki points. He starts charging a Kamehameha which costs 5 ki points, but rather than wasting time he wants to blast it immediately, so he doubles the ki cost making it 10 and the charging time one round then on the next initiative 20 he fires it as normal. P@uL (talk) 03:12, 22 March 2022 (MDT)

Due to the insane to hit this class has, it truly becomes unfun to play once you reach later levels so I will try to get this under control by lowering the proficiency bonus and limiting the amount of ability score points you can put into one score at once. P@uL (talk) 14:35, 10 May 2022 (MDT)

Other

Want to say something, but don't feel like it falls into any of the above? Say it here!--Ref3rence (talk) 12:03, 15 November 2021 (MST)

UI Goku

So anyone planning on fixing ultra instinct Goku? Because that looks too wrong and I don't think we should leave it that way forever. P@uL (talk) 14:46, 1 November 2021 (MDT)

What's the issue? Also how do you guys leave the info like date and stuff or do you just type it out? Deducted

While I don't entirely understand the issue, you can generate a signature by typing ~~~~ or by clicking the squiggly between italics and links at the top of the editing menu.--Ref3rence (talk) 10:41, 15 November 2021 (MST)

From a quick glance, his ki points are immediately off(should be 65 instead of 64). Besides that? No clue. I'm not the one that built it or the the one that made this comment. --SwankyPants (talk) 10:44, 15 November 2021 (MST)

I think what P@ul may be talking about is how similar MUI Goku and SSB Kaioken is, besides some minor differences like no more hp loss and Disadvantage on first attack, MUI is not much different, both are virtually the same, with differences so minor it's almost unnoticeable. -Deducted (talk) 11:10, 15 November 2021 (MST)

To be fair, there's only a CR difference of 2, and both of the differences you listed are pretty major (particularly the maximum hit point decrease).--Ref3rence (talk) 11:29, 15 November 2021 (MST)

Looking back at this now that I'm updating a few things, the stats on the sheet for Blue Kaioken which are on par with the ultra instinct form are only those of the first level Kaioken, and with the huge increase of maximum hp that super Saiyan blue can give, Kaioken can be raised even higher (and get it to far surpass what ultra instinct can do for Goku) without any immediate issues, this isn't a problem of the forms, but rather that with how Goku's built any strength bonuses are more significant than ultra instinct with its sole dex bonus (to his already mediocre dex score) thought I'd put this up here, when I finish all the updates I'll try to make ultra instinct more significant on his sheet. P@uL (talk) 05:45, 28 May 2023 (MDT)