Talk:Martial Artist (Dragon Ball Supplement)

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Archive 1 (Fulfilled Requests) Archive 2 (Clarified Clarification) Archive 3 (Executed Major Changes) Archive 4 (Other Archived Discussions)

Requests

Want to see anything included in this class? Leave a request below and it will at least be considered.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:03, 15 November 2021 (MST)

Wondering if you could make ultra ego, and merged techniques like final Kamehameha and big bang Kamehameha. I'm also thinking about slightly nerfing ki cloak as it gives characters a super Saiyan equivalent bonus to attacks, with the same rate of ki consumption, and much earlier and easier to obtain, in addition with the sword mastery feat it becomes a +3 bonus. P@uL (talk) 15:19, 18 March 2022 (MDT)

Seeing the recent changes to Ki Cloak, characters that use weapons are now always at a 1 ki point disadvantage at the start of their turn with almost no benefit, as weapons will rarely deal more damage than unarmed strikes and most serve no extra purpose beyond fluff. Sure, it was strong, but there should be at least one reason to pick it up beyond "I use weapons and have no other choice". --SwankyPants (talk) 22:02, 20 March 2022 (MDT)

In the main source, not many characters are seen using weapons, but those that do are either very skilled in their use or their weapons are special in some case, I was hoping to make it so that it doesn't become something that everyone will want to have otherwise it will turn into Bleach, I think it's okay if the character in question has the blade mastery feat which would give them a +1 bonus to attack at all times they use the weapon, or if it's magical they would benefit from its special effects while retaining their unarmed strike's damage. P@uL (talk) 01:50, 21 March 2022 (MDT)

I think Kaioken should scale a bit better with higher levels. Something like getting a +1 in your Strength and Dexterity per every level of Kaioken, instead of just being a static +1. Getting a speed boost of an extra +5 feet really isn't worth losing that much HP. If you don't want it to be that strong, it could be every other level, rounding up. --DrGuest (talk) 17:43, 6 April 2022 (MDT)

Kaioken is already intended to give a +1 per every level of kaioken as in kaioken two times would give a +2, is that what you meant or did I misread your idea? P@uL (talk) 03:13, 7 April 2022 (MDT)

It does? The only thing I read under the Kaioken technique is this:

• Your Strength and Dexterity increase by +1.

Which doesn't entail an increase per level, since the first listed attribute reads:

• Your movement speed are increased by 5 feet per level of Kaioken.

Or, with the downside:

• At the end of each of your turns, you lose 10 maximum hit points per level of kaioken.

I guess if it should do this, it should be specified. --DrGuest (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2022 (MDT)

The wording was fixed, thanks for pointing that out. P@uL (talk) 01:14, 9 April 2022 (MDT)

Is there anything for orange form planned?

Not as of now but I'll take a look eventually P@uL (talk) 19:26, 23 April 2023 (MDT)

I think would be good make a "Path" of the Limite Breaker SSJ4 from the Dragon Ball Heroes, as the Limite Breaker is a counterpart to match the blue and divine forms (I can see you using Mortal God + SSJ4 to mimic Limite Breaker SSJ4. but it would be good to have the "evolutions" of SSJ4). Thank you anyway and have a nice day :D Request By: Midalos[[1]] 13:42, 04/July 2023 (MDT)

With the little that I've come to know about this form, as you said, SSJ4 + Mortal God could be a decent way to represent this due to the fact initially it seems to handle what their blue counterparts couldn't, but as of now I don't have enough knowledge about this or anything in super dragon ball heroes in particular to make the best judgement, so I'll get back to this and see if it really needs another form after I learn more.

P@uL (talk) 12:15, 4 July 2023 (MDT)

Hello, its me again (I just love this class and setting ^-^), after playing by around 2 years of 2 campaings of DBZ at the same time (my group have 2 DMs that make two twin universes, each campaing in each one), and somethings we did to fit more our play style, that we want to share the ideias:

1. More Ki Points: We burn Ki like crazy, by this reason our Ki Maximum is (2x your level) + your Constitution, it may dont sound so balanced at first, but with a lot of play (in our opinion) is actually better this way as the caracters can relie more in the Techniques (like Vegeta sometimes only use ki techniques) and less on only using normal attack rolls and the battle gets more in the strategy side as everyone can burn ki to deal massive damage but right after suffer from lacking extra effects on attacks and the other way around. As for a normal D&D campaing, Your Level + Cons, feels perfect, but for a Campaing that only is in DBZ World, can be underwealming as you can try use a transformation and this transformation became more a burden to maintaing by turn instead of a "buff" (This more a low level/early transformation problem, as when around legendary to godly transformations they can handle more the transformations by the amount they recieve of extra ki points).

2. Custom/New Techniques: Im not saying that the setting dont have enough techniques to play, but somethings that are very well know its not made yet (like Soul Punisher from Gogeta or Ki Scythe of Goku Black) and some Transformations that can be worked around to make (Like SSJ3 Rosé being just Super Mortal God + SSJ3 + Procession Black), but would interesting to have them made, even it would only be 1 status diferent from the others.

But we have more others minor changes, i would be happy to explain them more to help adding to the Setting that i fell in love with (my childhood dream of being a Super Saiyan, came true), i'll not change anything in the class without permission as a sign of respect, if you guys want to talk about, send me a DM on Discord (elldasmw)

-- By Midalos

Hello Midalos, I've been the DM to a campaign using this setting for 3 years, and I see where you're coming from although our opinions might slightly differ, transformations typically aren't much of a problem unless you gain them at the very early levels, levels 18+ where most transformations are obtained tends to be okay, with the problem slightly resurfacing again at the highest levels with the Godly transformations and such due to their extremely high ki drain, however I believe that having to worry about your ki if you are dumping all of it away and weigh whether you should ki charge (which makes you temporarily vulnerable) or not does a great job in making it more tactical and differentiating between playstyles, I have players who burn ki like crazy and so their build is focused on having as much ki as possible, others who focus on having as many different techniques as possible, others who are focused on speed, and I think increasing ki can impact that. But this is just my opinion, I know that tables can be different, so I will add an optional rule that increases the overall ki a character has, just make sure you know this can also make an impact on the balance of equivalent currency if you are ever using a magic user or a character with another source of energy.

As for the custom/new techniques, most of the techniques in this class are either stackable or can be combined in various ways. With enough creativity and action economy, players can combine these techniques to effectively create new ones.

For example, to replicate Soul Punisher (or Stardust Breaker), a character could use Full Power Blow as a bonus action or reaction after using the Attack action. They can then turn the unarmed strike into a ki blast as a free action. Stardust Breaker deals enormous damage depending on how evil the target is, so add Devilmite Beam to the ki blast to double the damage if the creature is evil. To reflect its internal erasure effect, you could make it require a saving throw instead of an attack roll. This could be done by adding Magnum Finger to the ki blast for a Strength Save, or (if you used Full Power Blow as a reaction) use your bonus action as a free action to make the ki blast a Death Beam for a Constitution Save and doubling the damage again and finally you can use God Splitter to make it radiant damage and cause it to inflict the cleansing condition, which goes with the theme.

Now since the version of Gogeta that faced Janemba with this technique is already created and up to date I will use his stats to calculate how strong this technique would be if he put all his attacks into it. And even his reaction (which is risky)

Gogeta was a mastered Super Saiyan when he performed this attack, so we'll bump up his attack and damage bonuses by +3, giving him an attack roll of +26 and a damage bonus of +15. He has an unarmed damage die of 3d8 and can attack five times with the Attack action. Spending all his attacks on one ki blast using Full Power Blow would make it a ki blast with a damage of 15d8+75 (an average of 142 and a maximum of 195). Adding Devilmite Beam would double the damage since Janemba is pure evil, bumping it to an average of 284 and a maximum of 390.

If Gogeta adds the Death Beam technique, it would become a Constitution Saving Throw with an average damage of 568 and a maximum of 780. Since Goku has Advanced Ki Adept, Gogeta can either make the target roll their saving throw at disadvantage, gain advantage on his attack roll, or buff up the damage dice, resulting in an average of 600 and a maximum of 900 damage. This combination would require a significant amount of ki, making it a tactical choice: "Do you want to risk it all? If you hit, you might win; if you miss, you're exhausted and vulnerable."

By creatively stacking different abilities into one ki blast, Gogeta can potentially deal up to 900 radiant damage and apply the cleansed condition, effectively creating the Stardust Breaker. This can be achieved in various ways, and there are many combinations you can create with the techniques available.

When I edit or create a technique, I consider how it may interact with the rest, which is why I sometimes nitpick and edit small wordings. Regarding stacked transformations, there are many combinations that can achieve almost any form seen in the material through adding grade transformations.

I hope this sparks your imagination and helps you see a new perspective on what you're looking for. If you want to get in contact with me through Discord, you can find me on the D&D wiki where I have the same name as my username here "Paul the anime DM". I'd love to hear your ideas!--P@uL (talk) 12:17, 24 June 2024 (MDT)

The Optional Rule for more Ki has been added, check Optional Rules at the bottom of Variant Rules (Dragon Ball Supplement).--P@uL (talk) 12:56, 24 June 2024 (MDT)

I got it, it's kinda hard to know how to mix and match to keep up with everything in DBZ, but you are making understand better who to work with this class (i read almost everyday and even today i found new combos). Also, thank you for having my ideias to help you working in this setting, im gonna do my best to help ya (strangely im not finding on discord, can you DM them? "elldasm.w", i gona keep trying to contact you by discord cuz i dont want to flood the discursion pages).Midalos (talk) 16:34, 24 June 2024 (MDT)

After a while playing around with the class and doing some tests, I noticed that the Rock, Paper, Scissors Techniques become totally ignorable after a certain point (around lv21+, where it's not difficult to hit 18 consistently on the rolls + Bonus), I understand that they will be useful for a long time, but then they become techniques that you don't have much reason to use, since the creatures will constantly pass the test. (Especially Rock, who, like Sledgehammer, causes Stunned, but uses Strength instead of Constitution. This change of Status isn't a bad thing, but the fact that Sledgehammer can pass DC18, makes Rock totally ignorable when compared to Sledgehammer. maybe giving another condition to Rock would allow it to shine more.)

What I've done in my campaign, and it's become a good way to keep these techniques useful even at high levels, is to allow the DC to exceed 18, BUT just like Sledghammer, it can't be used more than once in a turn and you can't use another technique from this trio in the same turn either. So a character can't make 3 attacks and each of those attacks with one of the 3 techniques. If we still want to allow a Rock, Paper, Scissor Combo (like that one in Kakarot), it DC can be decreased by each one of the trio you use on the combo. (i.e: I Use Rock First, Scissors and them Paper, for Rock the DC is normal, but for Scissor is decreased by 5 and for Paper is by 10.)

Here what i'm saying:

Rock Scissors 'N' Paper: Paper!: Once per turn, as part of your unarmed strike for 1 Ki Point, the target must succeed a Dexterity saving throw or become prone. if you use another Paper after another Rock Scissor 'N' Paper Technique, the DC is reduced by 5 for each Technique used before (i.e: If used after Rock/Scissor, the DC is reduced by 5 and if use after both techniques, the DC is reduced by 10.)

Rock Scissors 'N' Paper: Scissors!: Once per turn, as part of your unarmed strike for 1 Ki Point, the target must succeed a Constitution saving throw or be knocked blinded until the end of their next turn. if you use another Paper after another Rock Scissor 'N' Paper Technique, the DC is reduced by 5 for each Technique used before (i.e: If used after Rock/Paper, the DC is reduced by 5 and if use after both techniques, the DC is reduced by 10.)

Rock Scissors 'N' Paper: Rock!: Once per turn, as part of your unarmed strike for 1 Ki Point, the target must succeed a Strength saving throw or become Staggered until the end of their next turn. if you use another Paper after another Rock Scissor 'N' Paper Technique, the DC is reduced by 5 for each Technique used before (i.e: If used after Paper/Scissor, the DC is reduced by 5 and if use after both techniques, the DC is reduced by 10.)

Anyway, thanks for reading! Cheers ^0^ --Midalos (talk) 15:15, 12 October 2024 (MDT)

Hello! I apologize for the delayed response—I've been quite busy with my studies lately, so I haven't been on the Wiki as much.

Regarding Rock, Scissors 'N' Paper, I completely understand your point, and it was actually intentional. These techniques were designed to be lower-level moves that fall out of use as characters grow stronger, exactly as you mentioned. As characters reach higher power levels, such "petty tricks" naturally become less effective—after all, we don't see Goku poking eyes anymore, right?

That being said, while these techniques remain available, I wanted to avoid situations where the Rock technique (which is purposefully similar to Sledgehammer) could lead to characters attempting to stun each other twice every turn just by attacking (using rock and sledgehammer). The same goes for Scissors, which could result in characters repeatedly trying to blind their opponents each turn just through attacking and devalue other techniques that are less action economy efficient but are meant to be used at those levels (looking at you Solar Flare). However, I also didn’t want to impose restrictions on these techniques at lower levels, where such issues wouldn’t arise, ki count is limited, and where they are intended to be more useful.

Many of the problems with this class appear primarily at epic levels. With the cap in place it makes it so that while the techniques are technically still available, they’re far less appealing at that stage, making the behavior I described less of a concern. As for Paper, it’s not really problematic since it's essentially just a shove action paired with a damage-dealing unarmed strike. Nevertheless, I’ve capped it off as well to maintain the theme of the trio.--P@uL (talk) 05:33, 13 October 2024 (MDT)

Clarifications

Confused by something, or at least feel like something works a way it shouldn't? Let us know here and we'll get back to you!

So when you have both a form and base active, you maintain upkeep for both correct? UI and MUI for example. Deducted (talk) 12:11, 15 November 2021 (MST)

That is correct.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:19, 15 November 2021 (MST)

Does full power give a bonus to the raw roll or the total? Because if it's the total I think it's already almost insignificant at the level it's earned? P@uL (talk) 16:28, 7 January 2022 (MST).

I'm pretty sure that's what was decided on, that it's just meant to apply to the roll itself and not as a modifier. More consistent hits over stronger hits essentially. Could use a wording tweak for it. --SwankyPants (talk) 16:36, 7 January 2022 (MST)

You can only use absorption once and can't again as long as thr creature is still absorbed by you? I think if that's the case it should be counted as a transformation so that it can be bypassed with Grade 4 transformation. P@uL (talk) 06:43, 12 January 2022 (MST)

Seems to be the intent there too. As for being a transformation, I don't know of any other near permanent ones like that, but it could be a supplemental technique with no upkeep, although I'm concerned by the possible abuse of then absorbing literally everything in sight for stupid high ability scores, since techniques surpass your normal limits. Like, if you really wanted to, you could absorb HUNDREDS of rabbits and throw your Dexterity through the roof. --SwankyPants (talk) 07:21, 12 January 2022 (MST)

Then how about after the first creature you may only benefit from absorption two more times? Probably also adding some close to your CR/Level limit. Just trying to figure out something in order for things like perfect cell and Super Buu Gohan absorbed to be possible. P@uL (talk) 09:30, 12 January 2022 (MST)

Hm, I suppose that it would need to get circumvented somehow, but I don't quite think transformation would be the way. Perhaps you can take it multiple times, allowing you to absorb an amount equal to the amount of times you've taken it? Could go for modifiers or something, like (DC - 18)/2 (minimum 1). I'm not too sure on power scaling or anything so this might need a lil' more thinkin'. --SwankyPants (talk) 10:18, 12 January 2022 (MST)

I like what you're going for, but stats eventually become way too big they would be able to absorb over 17 creatures with that. So I think (proficieny bonus-3)/2 may be more appropriate, it also aligns itself pretty good with the levels where the villains are supposed to be and the number of creatures they absorbed. P@uL (talk) 11:01, 12 January 2022 (MST)

Yeah, that seems good to me, too. 4 for Super Buu, if we stick with the big table on the bestiary talk page, 6 for a 60th level creature. Feel free to throw that in. --SwankyPants (talk) 11:30, 12 January 2022 (MST)

So in regards to grade 4 transformation and kaioken, does the 10 max hp lost per level of kaioken count as a maintenance cost or is able to be ignored via grade 4 and only have to play the measly 5 max hp per level to use it? Thanks again and sorry if the formatting is weird this is my first time attempting to use a wiki discussion page. Also great work on this supplement to everyone involved!

Hello there Phaelt, just put four tildes after your message and then the signature and date will automatically come up, the 10 maximum hp lost at the end of each of your turns does indeed count as a maintenance cost or else with it just being a meager 5 maximum hp per level spent at the beginning and nothing else, you could theoretically keep a kaioken boost forever with no further cost, thanks for the encouragement and I hope that you feel free to discuss about or edit in anything you think is missing and could be implemented, the more hands we have the better.

P@uL (talk) 03:58, 20 July 2022 (MDT)

Thank you for the warm welcome, ive been running a campaign and we just finished the third session and we have some questions about how certain things work, mostly regarding techniques and charging. with how techniques work, are you able to combine techniques and use multiple in one round? for example, at level 6, are you able to use flurry of blows, and critical upper on all 4 attacks? also with how charging works are you able to charge and progressively add more Ki into it once its fully charged or must i decide before i use the ability on how much i put into it and i must use that much? for example, if i charge Kamehameha for the required 2 rounds, can i then decide to charge it an additional round right then and there and go for 3 round charge and i just knock off an extra 1 ki, or is it going to remain a 2 round charged Kamehameha no matter how long i hold it because i decided the amount of ki used at the beginning of the charge? Sorry if i overlooked something on the page regarding this but i took a real long look and couldn't find it. Thanks again --Phaelt (talk) 21:00, 29 July 2022 (MDT)

• I don't believe we set a limit on how many techniques you can use a turn, so in theory you could use every different Ki Blast upgrade in a single turn.
• When you use a technique, you can't alter it afterwards in any way that the technique itself doesn't allow. You can choose the effects of Karma Absorption, but you can't bounce between the ability score increases of Super Mortal God, and you can't spend more ki on a Kamehameha. For future reference, if something goes unmentioned, the answer to most questions about it is probably "no".

Hope that helps. --SwankyPants (talk) 21:09, 29 July 2022 (MDT)

As SwankPants had said, nothing in the class mentions that you might increase the ki of a charging technique per round.

But i personally never thought about it that way, and in the campaign I've been DMing over a year since this class got running, I handled it in the way you had mentioned, adding ki per round at your choice, and it seems much more reasonable to me that it be that way to be honest, but it's just a DM choice.

About techniques, the only limit to use them are the actions you spent (except for techniques which don't specify an action), and your ki points. If you meet those two requirements, you should be able to do it. P@uL (talk) 22:56, 29 July 2022 (MDT)

Regarding Transformation upgrades, when it says the benefits of previous upgrades carry over, does that include detriments? Also, when it says in grade 4 that you can ignore any effects of the transformation... What does that mean? What could I ignore? FrickyDiBoop (talk) 16:38, 6 September 2022 (MDT)

All effects, beneficial or detrimental, should be gained (effects should probably replace benefits). If a transformation does anything, it allows you to forgo it (useful examples of this would be forgoing Grade 3's Dexterity decrease, Purple Comet Hurricane decreasing your movement speed, the Frost Demon transformations changing your size category) as long as it is not the technique having an adjective (detailed under Transformations) or the technique having a maintenance cost, as stated in Grade 4.--Ref3rence (talk) 18:37, 6 September 2022 (MDT)

All effects, go as Reference has mentioned, "All benefits" mean only the beneficial effects, such as str increase but not ki consumption.

P@uL (talk) 10:44, 7 September 2022 (MDT)

Hey what does the android transformation mean with the exhaustion cost, is it permanent or what or?

Exhaustion goes away on a long rest as always, it's just there to make rapid learning/unlearning less abuseable. --SwankyPants (talk) 00:49, 16 October 2022 (MDT)

Now that my summer break is almost here, I've been thinking about putting in some work here and there from time to time, is there something in particular any of you suggest I should work on? I myself have one idea, should I rebuild the existent characters in the bestiary to go along with the many differences in the rules made since they were created? P@uL (talk) 13:26, 22 May 2023 (MDT) Is it possible to make homebrew transformations and moves or naw- killshot

Generally the things that are already in the class should be good enough, you could change around the requirements or use them as a guideline.

For example, if you wanted to homebrew a transformation for an alien race you made using the rubber forehead alien template, you could take the super saiyan forms, change the requirement to that race and just make some cosmetic changes or add +2 to a stat bonus while reducing another by 2, that's just one suggestion. Generally just use what you have here as guidelines for your homebrew in your campaign, the sky is your limit. P@uL (talk) 03:15, 12 November 2023 (MST)

Questions specifically about charging. First, charging is initiated by using your action. do you need to continue using your action each round to continue charging it and could someone with action surge use it to spend another action progressing the charge? Secondly, specifically for Masenko, it has a 0.5 round charge. so my question for that is, if a creature/player has the action economy (such as 2 bonus actions), could they, in a single turn, use their action for the first 0.5 charge, then use one of their bonus actions and half their movement speed for another 0.5 rounds, and then use their last bonus action and remaining half movement speed for another 0.5 rounds charge adding up to a grand total of 1.5 rounds charge per round? if i'm not mistaken, the number of rounds required to charge is not so much based on action economy, but instead the actual rounds progressing determines charging speed (baring any feats that specifically allow them to speed up charging)? please let me know. - CleverNot 21:48, 15 July, 2024 (EST)

Hello CleverNot! If you perform any other action while concentrating on a charging technique (as with action surge), even if already charged this round, you'll need to pass a concentration check with a DC equal to the technique's DC or lose it completely.

Regarding action surge and similar features, RAW (rules as written), you cannot use them to charge techniques faster. Charging is based on rounds, not action economy, which only applies to the initiation of the technique. For 0.5 techniques like Masenko, you can initiate it with two 0.5 actions to count as 1 turn of charging. However, RAI (rules as intended) is to use the same action type required to initiate the technique to continue charging it. I will clarify this on the page. -P@uL (talk) 04:23, 16 July 2024 (MDT)

When using the Technique Enhancement feature, could you choose the Flurry of Blows Ki technique to add two more damage dice to it? or does the ki technique need to specifically list damage dice? - CleverNot 1:16AM EST

RAW you can add the Technique Enhancement feat to Flurry of Blows, but it would not increase the damage dice of both strikes, only one of them would get the damage dice increase. -- P@uL (talk) 00:10, 17 August 2024 (MDT)

After reading "Wolf Fang Fist" it seems as though some information is missing, the whole "embodying the aggressive fighting style of a wolf" makes it seem like youre doing something similar to "Purple Comet Hurricane" where you are doing this as an action or more likely bonus action to apply to the whole turn, especially since it continues to state "When you make an unarmed strike you make 1 additional unarmed strike" if it was meant to be applied per attack the cost seems steep and it'd make much more sense if, like most other effects that are a single instance applied when doing X, it said "as part of making an unarmed strike" -- 1kili2 3:28 AM, 19th of September 2024 (CEST)

Hi mate, I see you've had a question I've had in the past. Wolf Fang First is Yamcha's move, where he starts a hail of blows at high speed, descriptively it's very similar to Purple Comet Hurricane, but Wolf Fang First says that you can make 1 extra attack per 2 Ki, with a limit equal to the number of attacks you make without using it (I.e: If you make 3 attacks from a Attack Action and Bonus Action, you can make +3 extra attack and paying 2 per Wolf Fang First extra attack). For its part, Purple Comet Hurricane is a transformation and it turns your movement to 0 and makes you move with each hit, but you can only make 2 additional attacks on your turn. Wolf Fang First has ‘The Advantage’ of being able to make more attacks, but it's more expensive, while Purple Comet Hurricane has to pay 5 ki at once and maintain the effect as long as it maintains the transformation. -- Midalos 22:43 PM, 18th of September 2024 (UTC-3)

It's just as Midalos said, the wording 'When you make an unarmed strike you make 1 additional unarmed strike' means that you can use it as long as you can make unarmed strikes in some shape or form but it would be costly the more unarmed strikes you choose to add with it. It's also intended that the additional unarmed strikes made by wolf fang fist do not count as eligible strikes for this by the way. -- P@uL (talk) 23:41, 18 September 2024 (MDT)

Hello, back at it again with my bs. i have found a critical flaw with the technique enhancement feature. the instance i am running right now is a 12th level saiyan that knows two vital ki techniques. Ki Blast and Spirit Ball. This saiyan, at this level, can use technique enhancement to increase the damage of Spirit Ball by twice its damage dice. as per the conversation i had previously about Technique Enhancement and Flurry of Blows, despite Spirit Ball and Flurry of Blows specifically not listing damage dice, they do deal damage that is granted to them by another source. Spirit Ball's damage source is Ki Blast, and Ki Blast's damage source is your martial arts die. so at 12th level, a Saiyan has 1d10. the following is where it gets broken really fast. As a bonus action, activate Ki Blast, as a free action activate Spirit Ball, for action, use attack action and attack an enemy that is point blank (5ft away). per spirit ball the range can be halved until it reaches 5ft. at 12th level their movement is 50ft. halved is 25, halved again is 10 (rounding down cause 12.5 is weird) and halved again to 5ft. for each halving a creature can be targeted again. so this poor enemy 5ft away from this saiyan is going to be targeted 4 times (1 for the initial and 3 additional for each halving) and can potentially take 7d10/2 (damage is halved due to spirit ball effect) damage for each time. but that's not where it ends because that is just the first attack the saiyan can make. at 12th level the saiyan can make three attacks. so this poor enemy can be targeted 15 times (that's 15 INT saving throws) and potentially take 105d10/2 at the end of the turn. averaged out that is 315 potential damage a turn for just a level 12 character, which idk about you guys, is way too much to deal at just 12th level. i am enforcing the the following as a change to Technique enhancement in my campaign, "technique enhancement can only be applied to techniques that specifically list damage dice as damage." CleverNot 9:40AM EST

Hello my friend! Nice to ya!! :D. Well the Feat that give 2 extra damage die to a technique when you choose, you can't put on things like Spirit Ball as far as i know, because it state that it recieves a Additional Damage Dies, meaning that the technique itself must have a damage die of any type per itself and not by external effects. And also for the whole Spirit Ball technique. Spirit Ball say that when a target is again on the path of the technique, it must remake the saving trow and suffer another damage roll, so if you make a creature make 5 saves, it would make them recieve 5x your Ki Blast damage die (i.e: at lv12 as a Saiyan, a target recieve 5d10 + (5x Your Ki Modifier). assuming they fail every single save). And Finally as per rule of More Action, a creature can only do 1 Free Action per turn, so you can't make 3 Spirit Balls on your turn. to conclude all this talk, your saiyan at lv12 would make a Spirit Ball attack on ONE of it's ki blast, that deals 4x your Ki Blast Damage if the target fail all the 4 INT Savings.

Also is no BS man, don't worry, i have my fair share of dumb question that i asked. -- Midalos 12:05 AM, 25th of September 2024 (UTC-3)

You cannot make that much Spirit balls in one turn, due to it being a free action and activating the ki blast technique being a bonus action, so the only action left is your standard which is to attack. I've specifically made it a free action to tackle the issue of multiple Spirit balls in the past. That said, thanks for reaching out and don't hesitate to mention any other problems you encounter, it makes a better game for all of us. -- P@uL (talk) 10:18, 25 September 2024 (MDT)

this is for Paul, so free actions are not free? they are limited? and this is for Midalos, with that being said, you could not put it on flurry of blows because flurry of blows does not specifically list damage dice, right? and thank you both for the answers. CleverNot 12:28PM EST

Your doubts should be clarified in More Actions (5e Variant Rule) where it speaks about the limitations and uses of actions. -- P@uL (talk) 10:44, 25 September 2024 (MDT)

Midalos: As far as I know and RAW, that's exactly it. The GM can interpret it as being Additional Dice for the final value (so a Final Flash would give xd20 + 2d20 in the value, where X is the normal Final Flash chosen by the player) or the GM can say it's for the base value of the Technique (which I don't recommend doing, because otherwise techniques like final flash get 3d20 per point). -- Midalos 14:03 AM, 25th of September 2024 (UTC-3)

Killshot:How do android transformation work? Like each of them are a base transformation that aren't necessarily leading into each other like the super Saiyan but if you ever forget one do you also forget all of them? Or each of them passive? Do they each take up a technique slot technically? And how does forgetting being an Android work? (Sorry all questioned my players are asking)

Hi Killshot! thanks for asking. First and most important is that you must have Android Active (the Android Transformation is not like other forms, once you equiped in your Technique Slots, they are on effect and this is for any form of Android forms) and for every slot you spend to one of the Androids paths (Bio-Android or Super Android), the effects are activated until it's unlearned from your slots and you can't pick your Perfect Form if you don't have Imperfect Form. (Just think like this A -> B -> C. You can't have C without A and B, but can have B without C)

If you have Imperfect, Semi-Perfect and Perfect Form and you unlearn Semi-Perfect, you lose/can't access the Perfect Form, but not the Imperfect (They work like a ladder, which you climb up rung by rung), this is the same for Super Android Path, where if you don't have Infinite Energy Model, you can't use Super Android, but can use the Android effects.

Also as i remember, the exhaustion points are there until you unlearn this "transformation", so if you unlearn all your Android Forms, you lose all the points, but thoses points can't be lost by normal means like taking a long rest. think of them more like: I Spend a Slot for thoses Effects. kinda of thingy ya know?

If you or any of you players have questions, don't worry, just ask. Hope you have a great day/night :D --Midalos (talk) 19:26, 21 October 2024 (MDT)

It's as Midalos said save for the part about the exhaustion points, the exhaustion is a cost just as ki is a cost to transform into a Super Saiyan, it is meant to represent the need to recover after being turned into an android as that is usually done through extreme means such as surgery, so you get exhaustion once you obtain the transformation, but it isnt around for the duration of the transformation, it is lost in the same way as an other exhaustion source.

-- P@uL (talk) 00:03, 22 October 2024 (MDT)

Killshot: hey thanks that helps a lot but I do have another question,does the android transform states trigger the additional damage for koioken? Just asking cause it is changing your body kinda differently then like ssj which is just a power up.

Major Changes

Want to change something fundamental to the page? It'll be a hard sell, but there's no reason your thoughts shouldn't be heard out. Just be prepared to change some creatures.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:03, 15 November 2021 (MST)

Charged techniques become extremely insignificant in favor of unarmed strikes at later level, any remedy for that? Maybe you can reduce the unarmed damage? Charging seems so useless unless you have multiple allies, because even then the opponent can just move out of range due to you being unable to move at all even if it's charged. P@uL (talk) 15:04, 18 March 2022 (MDT)

A while back I thought there could maybe be an "enhanced charging" feat, making those kinda techniques more usable in a proper fight, instead of just cinematic types of things. It seemed like an incredible pain to balance, so I ended up deciding against it, although maybe it could be rolled into something. My immediate idea was that it would allow you to reduce the time by X to a minimum of 1, X either being an ability modifier divide something, or just a flat 2. Able to be taken multiple times, although that's where I get concerned about balance again. --SwankyPants (talk) 22:17, 20 March 2022 (MDT)

I have an idea, what if, we do something along the lines of

Enhanced Charging

At XXth level, when you charge a technique, you may accelerate the process by giving up conservation and carefulness in exchange for a more immediate attack, overcharging your attack with ki, When you charge a technique with a charging time of at least 1 round and a ki cost, you may double its ki cost to consider it charged for one round, you may do this additional times at once as many times as your Proficieny bonus divided by 3 rounded down in one technique, it still must pass initiative 20 to be considered fully charged.

So for example, I'll use Frieza's stat sheet in the bestiary.

Frieza is in his suppressed form with a total ki of 29. Frieza begins charging supernova which costs 5 ki points, but he wants to charge it faster. He has a proficiency bonus of 7 so he can use enhanced charging twice in one technique. So he doubles the ki cost making it 10, and doubles it again making it 20. Now he's charged a supernova with a damage of 3d12+42 and waits until initiative 20 before he can launch it.

Another example with Namek saga Goku.

Goku has 27 ki points. He starts charging a Kamehameha which costs 5 ki points, but rather than wasting time he wants to blast it immediately, so he doubles the ki cost making it 10 and the charging time one round then on the next initiative 20 he fires it as normal. P@uL (talk) 03:12, 22 March 2022 (MDT)

Due to the insane to hit this class has, it truly becomes unfun to play once you reach later levels so I will try to get this under control by lowering the proficiency bonus and limiting the amount of ability score points you can put into one score at once. P@uL (talk) 14:35, 10 May 2022 (MDT)

Based on the new Monk from the new D&D books, something that might be interesting to bring from there to here. It's adding the new version of Deflect Missiles, which in Monk 2024 is no longer limited to just projectiles but can now be used on attacks that deal Bludgeoning, Piercing and Slashing damage. It wouldn't be possible to bring back the effect of being able to return a blow to the attacker, since that would basically be getting Exchange Blow for free (but a simple way round this is to allow Exchange Blow to be used in conjunction with ‘Deflect Damage’ perhaps).

Also, it wouldn't change the feature itself, since it would ultimately be the same thing, but it would provide one more defensive option for the class. In addition, the class's Deflect Energy Feature would be transformed into Monk 2024's Deflect Energy (which allows Deflect Damage to be used on acid, cold, fire, lightning, force, necrotic, radiant, or thunder damage).

Of course, this would cause a lot of work to update ALL the NPC sheets, but it's something that I (if wanted to) could do without any problems. (Also this would allow for the classic scenes in Dragon Ball where characters deflect ki blasts and other techniques. As how Ki Blasts and techniques where RAW would not be counted to the Deflect Missile feature, cuz they would not be counted as Ranged attacks)

Example of what I'm saying:

Deflect Damage

Starting at 2nd level, you can use your reaction to deflect or reduce the damage when hit by a attack that deals Bludgeoning, Slashing or Piercing Damage. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your martial artist level.

At 37th level, the damage you can reduce increases to 3d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your martial artist level.

Deflect Energy

At 25th level, when you take acid, cold, fire, lightning, force, necrotic, radiant, or thunder damage, you can use the Deflect Damage Feature as would be used with Bludgeoning, Slashing or Piercing Damage.

Exchange Blow: As a reaction for 2 Ki Points. When an attack roll is made against you, you make an unarmed attack against the attacker. This Technique can be also used when a damage is reduced to 0 by the Deflect Damage Feature

--Midalos (talk) 17:24, 12 October 2024 (MDT)

While I get your wanting to implement the monk's current Deflect missiles and is something I have thought about myself, when it comes to "deflecting" melee attacks the attack clash Variant Rules already cover that and more so converting this to the new monk version would simply result in a much stronger and potentially much less costly version so it should be kept as is.

The same applies for Deflect Energy, as if it becomes an ambiguous reduction to damage types with the reduction power of deflect missiles, balance when it comes to dealing with ki moves that would otherwise require saving throws, will go out the window, there are currently many ways that one can reduce the damage they could take from things such as Kamehameha that would require spending a resource of sorts, and implementing it in this way would cause either these options to be invalid or further devalue the use of such techniques which was difficult to bring to its current appeal of use.

I'm all for adding more options for this class as its supposed to be diverse, but we need to be careful with everything that we add so that it doesn't devalue either other similar options that already exist or what it would be used against.

So I would suggest that Deflect Missiles are kept specifically for ranged attacks to avoid any of this, and if you were to change Deflect Energy to more resemble Deflect Missiles (which is fine) add that specification into it as well, which would end up applying to such things as ki blasts without butchering other techniques. -- P@uL (talk) 05:12, 13 October 2024 (MDT)

While it can sure help to match other techniques, if you want to keep using Charging Techniques, you really need to get the Technique Enhancement Feat. it per self can be something to help balance the whole Feat and the usage of Charging Techniques, but after some testing and talking with myself, the effect to expend 1 Ki point for 1 extra damage die, could be a effect in the Enhanced Charging Feature. By doing this, help in the core class to match Charging Techniques to later levels and don't forces a Character to spend a ASI to get a feat to keep using one technique. Giving the fact that when you got the feature, you have +7 (that is counted as 6), you could make a +2 dices, so its the same as getting the feat and if you still get the feat, you would still gain +2 extra die to the base value of the technique besides any effects of the feature. So if you REALLY wanna focus the feat in one charging technique it will show better results for that technique.

BUT boths effects of Enhanced Charging features would count as one for the feature itself, so you can choose to pay 1+ extra Ki for 1+ dices of damage or pay the base cost of technique to charge 1 round (so a Kamehameha with a character with 3 times per turn of the effects of Enhanced Charging Feature, could pay +3 to +3d10 in the turn OR pay +15 Ki for 3 Extra Charges)

With all that in mind and to end all this mambojambo, the Feature would be the following:

Enhanced Charging

At 21st level, when you charge a technique, you may accelerate the process by giving up conservation and carefulness in exchange for a more immediate attack, overcharging your attack with ki, When you use your action to charge or begin charging a technique with a charging time of at least half a round and a ki cost, you may spend its base ki cost an additional time to consider it charged for a round or you can pay 1 extra ki point everytime you charge the technique adding an amount of damage die up to the amount this feature can be used per turn. you may do this as many times as your Proficiency bonus divided by 3 per turn.

Techniques which have a base charging time of half a round, don't gain your ki attack modifier to damage per round considered charged in this way.

At 36th level, you may add your unarmed damage die to the damage of techniques that are charged each round it is charged.

--Midalos (talk) 14:19, 20 October 2024 (MDT)

While this is a great idea and I get where you're coming from, the feature "Enhanced Charging" itself was made to make charging more appealing, I don't see a problem with spending a Feat to make a specific technique better as that gives more customization options. Enhanced Charging is not meant to be cheap, that is why it's the base cost of the charging, making it so that adding a +1 ki point per extra die of the get go, would make it way too easy and similar to the cheap but time consuming normal charging, which Enhanced charging is supposed to be a more expensive but faster version of.

However, I don't think that your idea should be completely dismissed, so if you would want to keep going on with this idea. I suggest that the added die be limited to being done only once per turn and not anymore than that, while the Feat version is there for anyone who wants to further rectify this problem for a certain technique they favor much.

--P@uL (talk) 02:03, 21 October 2024 (MDT)

Well, with that in mind. the only thing that is needed to be added to Enhanced Charging is the following line: "Once per turn when you use this feature, you add one extra dice of damage to the technique", so if you want to pump a technique with speed and a little more power, by the core class you already can, but if you REALLY like a Charging Technique and want to keep using them, the mix of Feat and Feature would be perfect like this (And also this make people that don't pick the feat have a huge gap between them, they still will have a gap, but nothing crazy). so that way, you can keep a charging technique instead of just go Magnun Finger/Dondo Ray + Full Power Blow. Thank's for reading and the guidance again Paul :] --Midalos (talk) 08:00, 21 October 2024 (MDT)

Other

Want to say something, but don't feel like it falls into any of the above? Say it here!--Ref3rence (talk) 12:03, 15 November 2021 (MST)

UI Goku

So anyone planning on fixing ultra instinct Goku? Because that looks too wrong and I don't think we should leave it that way forever. P@uL (talk) 14:46, 1 November 2021 (MDT)

What's the issue? Also how do you guys leave the info like date and stuff or do you just type it out? Deducted

While I don't entirely understand the issue, you can generate a signature by typing ~~~~ or by clicking the squiggly between italics and links at the top of the editing menu.--Ref3rence (talk) 10:41, 15 November 2021 (MST)

From a quick glance, his ki points are immediately off(should be 65 instead of 64). Besides that? No clue. I'm not the one that built it or the the one that made this comment. --SwankyPants (talk) 10:44, 15 November 2021 (MST)

I think what P@ul may be talking about is how similar MUI Goku and SSB Kaioken is, besides some minor differences like no more hp loss and Disadvantage on first attack, MUI is not much different, both are virtually the same, with differences so minor it's almost unnoticeable. -Deducted (talk) 11:10, 15 November 2021 (MST)

To be fair, there's only a CR difference of 2, and both of the differences you listed are pretty major (particularly the maximum hit point decrease).--Ref3rence (talk) 11:29, 15 November 2021 (MST)

Looking back at this now that I'm updating a few things, the stats on the sheet for Blue Kaioken which are on par with the ultra instinct form are only those of the first level Kaioken, and with the huge increase of maximum hp that super Saiyan blue can give, Kaioken can be raised even higher (and get it to far surpass what ultra instinct can do for Goku) without any immediate issues, this isn't a problem of the forms, but rather that with how Goku's built any strength bonuses are more significant than ultra instinct with its sole dex bonus (to his already mediocre dex score) thought I'd put this up here, when I finish all the updates I'll try to make ultra instinct more significant on his sheet. P@uL (talk) 05:45, 28 May 2023 (MDT)

Bio-Android Rework

The current version of Bio-Android is incredibly finnicky. Waiting 39 levels (out of 60 total) while also making yourself much weaker than you would've been otherwise just doesn't make any sense. I have an idea for a rework, I might be the one to do it since I don't want anyone else to potentially make it worse than it already is. I'll plot out my concept and then begin writing. First, the things that need changed. 1. 39 levels is far too many to unlock your race. It should be level 1, or not at all. You could argue the same for Androids themselves, but I just don't have the energy to rework them as well. 2. It shouldn't be "up to the DM" on what racial abilities you get. Any good DM is just going to let their player pick regardless. It's the equivalent of taking away your player's ability to choose their subrace. 3. Having Bio-Android forms be "Base Forms" makes sense in concept, but starting as a Frost Demon and playing for 38 levels only to lose all your transformations and become a Bio-Android feels so cheap. You lose all the things you've built up in return for way worse forms, and now you can't unlock more powerful forms until FAR in the late game, and depending on how DMs might interpret rules, you might not be able to learn new forms at all. Most of the late game forms like UI/UE are locked behind learning their sign variants, which are base forms. Meaning you can't use them, and they eat up a technique slot for quite a few levels. It might be much more fair to consider them supplementary since they're honestly equivalent to a Majin using Liquefaction in terms of power.

This rework will cause Bio-Androids as a whole to change because again, they shouldn't be locked so far into the game. The two ideas I have at the moment are some sort of variant rules that allow players to create their own Bio-Androids over the course of a game. The main reason for this is that Bio-Androids are nothing like a typical DnD race. They're not created equally. You have your Cells and Cell Max, and you have your Android 21's. This system would take a lot of setup since I don't have any good ideas on a way you could gather DNA to create something as weak as normal Cell or as strong as Cell Max and 21. So alternatively, I'd rather create a race where you can just start play as a level 1 Bio-Android. For the sake of time, I'd like to focus on the second one. If anyone has any ideas, please post them here. For the time being I'm going to begin writing them up as a race. The one thing I'd like feedback on is how to properly rework the Bio-Android transformations, because at this moment, my only idea are to erase them entirely and start from scratch, and I'd rather not step on anyone else's shoes. Spooks2222 (talk) 13:05, 15 November 2024 (MST)

Hello Spooks! I agree with what you said earlier, I understand the idea of letting the GM choose which features are received (already to avoid massive combos of racial features), but just as a GM can choose, he can also deny, so it really is better (in my opinion) to give the player the ability to choose their features.

Regarding the Bio-Android Race, I support the idea of producing two new races, being Androids and Bio-Androids (since even though in theory they are based on the same foundation, they are extremely different from each other, just as Machine Mutants are from Neo-Machine Mutants).

And just as there are features in the Races that evolve over time, the same could be done with the effects of the forms, but of course still leaving them in the class, since sometimes the character in the story may not start out as an Android and then become one. anything i could help, i will, for sure! d=====(￣▽￣) ----Midalos (talk) 13:35, 15 November 2024 (MST)

I agree that the class feature/form for Bio-Androids itself should be left in to better represent Android 21. The race itself was just added. It does need an actual image to be put into it (preferably in the exact same place it is in the code for Frost Demons). I think a Max transformation should be added to represent Cell-Max. As for Android 21's transformation into a Majin, I'm entirely unsure how to add it. I don't know if it would be classified as a Base Transformation or a Form Transformation. If it is created by anyone, it shouldn't be limited to being a "majin" type of transformation. The whole reason she turns into a Majin is just because that's the DNA that works with her body best I suppose. I don't see any reason that a Bio-Android couldn't go Golden or Super Saiyan if they had a closeness with that race like 21 has with her Majin forms. It'll take a lot of extra thinking. I just wanted to lay the ground work. Spooks2222 (talk) 13:57, 15 November 2024 (MST)