Talk:Martial Artist (Dragon Ball Supplement)

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Archive 1 (Fulfilled Requests) Archive 2 (Clarified Clarification) Archive 3 (Executed Major Changes) Archive 4 (Other Archived Discussions)

Requests

Want to see anything included in this class? Leave a request below and it will at least be considered.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:03, 15 November 2021 (MST)

Wondering if you could make ultra ego, and merged techniques like final Kamehameha and big bang Kamehameha. I'm also thinking about slightly nerfing ki cloak as it gives characters a super Saiyan equivalent bonus to attacks, with the same rate of ki consumption, and much earlier and easier to obtain, in addition with the sword mastery feat it becomes a +3 bonus. P@uL (talk) 15:19, 18 March 2022 (MDT)

Seeing the recent changes to Ki Cloak, characters that use weapons are now always at a 1 ki point disadvantage at the start of their turn with almost no benefit, as weapons will rarely deal more damage than unarmed strikes and most serve no extra purpose beyond fluff. Sure, it was strong, but there should be at least one reason to pick it up beyond "I use weapons and have no other choice". --SwankyPants (talk) 22:02, 20 March 2022 (MDT)

In the main source, not many characters are seen using weapons, but those that do are either very skilled in their use or their weapons are special in some case, I was hoping to make it so that it doesn't become something that everyone will want to have otherwise it will turn into Bleach, I think it's okay if the character in question has the blade mastery feat which would give them a +1 bonus to attack at all times they use the weapon, or if it's magical they would benefit from its special effects while retaining their unarmed strike's damage. P@uL (talk) 01:50, 21 March 2022 (MDT)

I think Kaioken should scale a bit better with higher levels. Something like getting a +1 in your Strength and Dexterity per every level of Kaioken, instead of just being a static +1. Getting a speed boost of an extra +5 feet really isn't worth losing that much HP. If you don't want it to be that strong, it could be every other level, rounding up. --DrGuest (talk) 17:43, 6 April 2022 (MDT)

Kaioken is already intended to give a +1 per every level of kaioken as in kaioken two times would give a +2, is that what you meant or did I misread your idea? P@uL (talk) 03:13, 7 April 2022 (MDT)

It does? The only thing I read under the Kaioken technique is this:

• Your Strength and Dexterity increase by +1.

Which doesn't entail an increase per level, since the first listed attribute reads:

• Your movement speed are increased by 5 feet per level of Kaioken.

Or, with the downside:

• At the end of each of your turns, you lose 10 maximum hit points per level of kaioken.

I guess if it should do this, it should be specified. --DrGuest (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2022 (MDT)

The wording was fixed, thanks for pointing that out. P@uL (talk) 01:14, 9 April 2022 (MDT)

Is there anything for orange form planned?

Not as of now but I'll take a look eventually P@uL (talk) 19:26, 23 April 2023 (MDT)

I think would be good make a "Path" of the Limite Breaker SSJ4 from the Dragon Ball Heroes, as the Limite Breaker is a counterpart to match the blue and divine forms (I can see you using Mortal God + SSJ4 to mimic Limite Breaker SSJ4. but it would be good to have the "evolutions" of SSJ4). Thank you anyway and have a nice day :D Request By: Midalos[[1]] 13:42, 04/July 2023 (MDT)

With the little that I've come to know about this form, as you said, SSJ4 + Mortal God could be a decent way to represent this due to the fact initially it seems to handle what their blue counterparts couldn't, but as of now I don't have enough knowledge about this or anything in super dragon ball heroes in particular to make the best judgement, so I'll get back to this and see if it really needs another form after I learn more.

P@uL (talk) 12:15, 4 July 2023 (MDT)

Hello, its me again (I just love this class and setting ^-^), after playing by around 2 years of 2 campaings of DBZ at the same time (my group have 2 DMs that make two twin universes, each campaing in each one), and somethings we did to fit more our play style, that we want to share the ideias:

1. More Ki Points: We burn Ki like crazy, by this reason our Ki Maximum is (2x your level) + your Constitution, it may dont sound so balanced at first, but with a lot of play (in our opinion) is actually better this way as the caracters can relie more in the Techniques (like Vegeta sometimes only use ki techniques) and less on only using normal attack rolls and the battle gets more in the strategy side as everyone can burn ki to deal massive damage but right after suffer from lacking extra effects on attacks and the other way around. As for a normal D&D campaing, Your Level + Cons, feels perfect, but for a Campaing that only is in DBZ World, can be underwealming as you can try use a transformation and this transformation became more a burden to maintaing by turn instead of a "buff" (This more a low level/early transformation problem, as when around legendary to godly transformations they can handle more the transformations by the amount they recieve of extra ki points).

2. Custom/New Techniques: Im not saying that the setting dont have enough techniques to play, but somethings that are very well know its not made yet (like Soul Punisher from Gogeta or Ki Scythe of Goku Black) and some Transformations that can be worked around to make (Like SSJ3 Rosé being just Super Mortal God + SSJ3 + Procession Black), but would interesting to have them made, even it would only be 1 status diferent from the others.

But we have more others minor changes, i would be happy to explain them more to help adding to the Setting that i fell in love with (my childhood dream of being a Super Saiyan, came true), i'll not change anything in the class without permission as a sign of respect, if you guys want to talk about, send me a DM on Discord (elldasmw)

-- By Midalos

Hello Midalos, I've been the DM to a campaign using this setting for 3 years, and I see where you're coming from although our opinions might slightly differ, transformations typically aren't much of a problem unless you gain them at the very early levels, levels 18+ where most transformations are obtained tends to be okay, with the problem slightly resurfacing again at the highest levels with the Godly transformations and such due to their extremely high ki drain, however I believe that having to worry about your ki if you are dumping all of it away and weigh whether you should ki charge (which makes you temporarily vulnerable) or not does a great job in making it more tactical and differentiating between playstyles, I have players who burn ki like crazy and so their build is focused on having as much ki as possible, others who focus on having as many different techniques as possible, others who are focused on speed, and I think increasing ki can impact that. But this is just my opinion, I know that tables can be different, so I will add an optional rule that increases the overall ki a character has, just make sure you know this can also make an impact on the balance of equivalent currency if you are ever using a magic user or a character with another source of energy.

As for the custom/new techniques, most of the techniques in this class are either stackable or can be combined in various ways. With enough creativity and action economy, players can combine these techniques to effectively create new ones.

For example, to replicate Soul Punisher (or Stardust Breaker), a character could use Full Power Blow as a bonus action or reaction after using the Attack action. They can then turn the unarmed strike into a ki blast as a free action. Stardust Breaker deals enormous damage depending on how evil the target is, so add Devilmite Beam to the ki blast to double the damage if the creature is evil. To reflect its internal erasure effect, you could make it require a saving throw instead of an attack roll. This could be done by adding Magnum Finger to the ki blast for a Strength Save, or (if you used Full Power Blow as a reaction) use your bonus action as a free action to make the ki blast a Death Beam for a Constitution Save and doubling the damage again and finally you can use God Splitter to make it radiant damage and cause it to inflict the cleansing condition, which goes with the theme.

Now since the version of Gogeta that faced Janemba with this technique is already created and up to date I will use his stats to calculate how strong this technique would be if he put all his attacks into it. And even his reaction (which is risky)

Gogeta was a mastered Super Saiyan when he performed this attack, so we'll bump up his attack and damage bonuses by +3, giving him an attack roll of +26 and a damage bonus of +15. He has an unarmed damage die of 3d8 and can attack five times with the Attack action. Spending all his attacks on one ki blast using Full Power Blow would make it a ki blast with a damage of 15d8+75 (an average of 142 and a maximum of 195). Adding Devilmite Beam would double the damage since Janemba is pure evil, bumping it to an average of 284 and a maximum of 390.

If Gogeta adds the Death Beam technique, it would become a Constitution Saving Throw with an average damage of 568 and a maximum of 780. Since Goku has Advanced Ki Adept, Gogeta can either make the target roll their saving throw at disadvantage, gain advantage on his attack roll, or buff up the damage dice, resulting in an average of 600 and a maximum of 900 damage. This combination would require a significant amount of ki, making it a tactical choice: "Do you want to risk it all? If you hit, you might win; if you miss, you're exhausted and vulnerable."

By creatively stacking different abilities into one ki blast, Gogeta can potentially deal up to 900 radiant damage and apply the cleansed condition, effectively creating the Stardust Breaker. This can be achieved in various ways, and there are many combinations you can create with the techniques available.

When I edit or create a technique, I consider how it may interact with the rest, which is why I sometimes nitpick and edit small wordings. Regarding stacked transformations, there are many combinations that can achieve almost any form seen in the material through adding grade transformations.

I hope this sparks your imagination and helps you see a new perspective on what you're looking for. If you want to get in contact with me through Discord, you can find me on the D&D wiki where I have the same name as my username here "Paul the anime DM". I'd love to hear your ideas!--P@uL (talk) 12:17, 24 June 2024 (MDT)

The Optional Rule for more Ki has been added, check Optional Rules at the bottom of Variant Rules (Dragon Ball Supplement).--P@uL (talk) 12:56, 24 June 2024 (MDT)

I got it, it's kinda hard to know how to mix and match to keep up with everything in DBZ, but you are making understand better who to work with this class (i read almost everyday and even today i found new combos). Also, thank you for having my ideias to help you working in this setting, im gonna do my best to help ya (strangely im not finding on discord, can you DM them? "elldasm.w", i gona keep trying to contact you by discord cuz i dont want to flood the discursion pages).Midalos (talk) 16:34, 24 June 2024 (MDT)

After a while playing around with the class and doing some tests, I noticed that the Rock, Paper, Scissors Techniques become totally ignorable after a certain point (around lv21+, where it's not difficult to hit 18 consistently on the rolls + Bonus), I understand that they will be useful for a long time, but then they become techniques that you don't have much reason to use, since the creatures will constantly pass the test. (Especially Rock, who, like Sledgehammer, causes Stunned, but uses Strength instead of Constitution. This change of Status isn't a bad thing, but the fact that Sledgehammer can pass DC18, makes Rock totally ignorable when compared to Sledgehammer. maybe giving another condition to Rock would allow it to shine more.)

What I've done in my campaign, and it's become a good way to keep these techniques useful even at high levels, is to allow the DC to exceed 18, BUT just like Sledghammer, it can't be used more than once in a turn and you can't use another technique from this trio in the same turn either. So a character can't make 3 attacks and each of those attacks with one of the 3 techniques. If we still want to allow a Rock, Paper, Scissor Combo (like that one in Kakarot), it DC can be decreased by each one of the trio you use on the combo. (i.e: I Use Rock First, Scissors and them Paper, for Rock the DC is normal, but for Scissor is decreased by 5 and for Paper is by 10.)

Here what i'm saying:

Rock Scissors 'N' Paper: Paper!: Once per turn, as part of your unarmed strike for 1 Ki Point, the target must succeed a Dexterity saving throw or become prone. if you use another Paper after another Rock Scissor 'N' Paper Technique, the DC is reduced by 5 for each Technique used before (i.e: If used after Rock/Scissor, the DC is reduced by 5 and if use after both techniques, the DC is reduced by 10.)

Rock Scissors 'N' Paper: Scissors!: Once per turn, as part of your unarmed strike for 1 Ki Point, the target must succeed a Constitution saving throw or be knocked blinded until the end of their next turn. if you use another Paper after another Rock Scissor 'N' Paper Technique, the DC is reduced by 5 for each Technique used before (i.e: If used after Rock/Paper, the DC is reduced by 5 and if use after both techniques, the DC is reduced by 10.)

Rock Scissors 'N' Paper: Rock!: Once per turn, as part of your unarmed strike for 1 Ki Point, the target must succeed a Strength saving throw or become Staggered until the end of their next turn. if you use another Paper after another Rock Scissor 'N' Paper Technique, the DC is reduced by 5 for each Technique used before (i.e: If used after Paper/Scissor, the DC is reduced by 5 and if use after both techniques, the DC is reduced by 10.)

Anyway, thanks for reading! Cheers ^0^ --Midalos (talk) 15:15, 12 October 2024 (MDT)

Hello! I apologize for the delayed response—I've been quite busy with my studies lately, so I haven't been on the Wiki as much.

Regarding Rock, Scissors 'N' Paper, I completely understand your point, and it was actually intentional. These techniques were designed to be lower-level moves that fall out of use as characters grow stronger, exactly as you mentioned. As characters reach higher power levels, such "petty tricks" naturally become less effective—after all, we don't see Goku poking eyes anymore, right?

That being said, while these techniques remain available, I wanted to avoid situations where the Rock technique (which is purposefully similar to Sledgehammer) could lead to characters attempting to stun each other twice every turn just by attacking (using rock and sledgehammer). The same goes for Scissors, which could result in characters repeatedly trying to blind their opponents each turn just through attacking and devalue other techniques that are less action economy efficient but are meant to be used at those levels (looking at you Solar Flare). However, I also didn’t want to impose restrictions on these techniques at lower levels, where such issues wouldn’t arise, ki count is limited, and where they are intended to be more useful.

Many of the problems with this class appear primarily at epic levels. With the cap in place it makes it so that while the techniques are technically still available, they’re far less appealing at that stage, making the behavior I described less of a concern. As for Paper, it’s not really problematic since it's essentially just a shove action paired with a damage-dealing unarmed strike. Nevertheless, I’ve capped it off as well to maintain the theme of the trio.--P@uL (talk) 05:33, 13 October 2024 (MDT)

Clarifications

Confused by something, or at least feel like something works a way it shouldn't? Let us know here and we'll get back to you!

So when you have both a form and base active, you maintain upkeep for both correct? UI and MUI for example. Deducted (talk) 12:11, 15 November 2021 (MST)

That is correct.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:19, 15 November 2021 (MST)

Does full power give a bonus to the raw roll or the total? Because if it's the total I think it's already almost insignificant at the level it's earned? P@uL (talk) 16:28, 7 January 2022 (MST).

I'm pretty sure that's what was decided on, that it's just meant to apply to the roll itself and not as a modifier. More consistent hits over stronger hits essentially. Could use a wording tweak for it. --SwankyPants (talk) 16:36, 7 January 2022 (MST)

You can only use absorption once and can't again as long as thr creature is still absorbed by you? I think if that's the case it should be counted as a transformation so that it can be bypassed with Grade 4 transformation. P@uL (talk) 06:43, 12 January 2022 (MST)

Seems to be the intent there too. As for being a transformation, I don't know of any other near permanent ones like that, but it could be a supplemental technique with no upkeep, although I'm concerned by the possible abuse of then absorbing literally everything in sight for stupid high ability scores, since techniques surpass your normal limits. Like, if you really wanted to, you could absorb HUNDREDS of rabbits and throw your Dexterity through the roof. --SwankyPants (talk) 07:21, 12 January 2022 (MST)

Then how about after the first creature you may only benefit from absorption two more times? Probably also adding some close to your CR/Level limit. Just trying to figure out something in order for things like perfect cell and Super Buu Gohan absorbed to be possible. P@uL (talk) 09:30, 12 January 2022 (MST)

Hm, I suppose that it would need to get circumvented somehow, but I don't quite think transformation would be the way. Perhaps you can take it multiple times, allowing you to absorb an amount equal to the amount of times you've taken it? Could go for modifiers or something, like (DC - 18)/2 (minimum 1). I'm not too sure on power scaling or anything so this might need a lil' more thinkin'. --SwankyPants (talk) 10:18, 12 January 2022 (MST)

I like what you're going for, but stats eventually become way too big they would be able to absorb over 17 creatures with that. So I think (proficieny bonus-3)/2 may be more appropriate, it also aligns itself pretty good with the levels where the villains are supposed to be and the number of creatures they absorbed. P@uL (talk) 11:01, 12 January 2022 (MST)

Yeah, that seems good to me, too. 4 for Super Buu, if we stick with the big table on the bestiary talk page, 6 for a 60th level creature. Feel free to throw that in. --SwankyPants (talk) 11:30, 12 January 2022 (MST)

So in regards to grade 4 transformation and kaioken, does the 10 max hp lost per level of kaioken count as a maintenance cost or is able to be ignored via grade 4 and only have to play the measly 5 max hp per level to use it? Thanks again and sorry if the formatting is weird this is my first time attempting to use a wiki discussion page. Also great work on this supplement to everyone involved!

Hello there Phaelt, just put four tildes after your message and then the signature and date will automatically come up, the 10 maximum hp lost at the end of each of your turns does indeed count as a maintenance cost or else with it just being a meager 5 maximum hp per level spent at the beginning and nothing else, you could theoretically keep a kaioken boost forever with no further cost, thanks for the encouragement and I hope that you feel free to discuss about or edit in anything you think is missing and could be implemented, the more hands we have the better.

P@uL (talk) 03:58, 20 July 2022 (MDT)

Thank you for the warm welcome, ive been running a campaign and we just finished the third session and we have some questions about how certain things work, mostly regarding techniques and charging. with how techniques work, are you able to combine techniques and use multiple in one round? for example, at level 6, are you able to use flurry of blows, and critical upper on all 4 attacks? also with how charging works are you able to charge and progressively add more Ki into it once its fully charged or must i decide before i use the ability on how much i put into it and i must use that much? for example, if i charge Kamehameha for the required 2 rounds, can i then decide to charge it an additional round right then and there and go for 3 round charge and i just knock off an extra 1 ki, or is it going to remain a 2 round charged Kamehameha no matter how long i hold it because i decided the amount of ki used at the beginning of the charge? Sorry if i overlooked something on the page regarding this but i took a real long look and couldn't find it. Thanks again --Phaelt (talk) 21:00, 29 July 2022 (MDT)

• I don't believe we set a limit on how many techniques you can use a turn, so in theory you could use every different Ki Blast upgrade in a single turn.
• When you use a technique, you can't alter it afterwards in any way that the technique itself doesn't allow. You can choose the effects of Karma Absorption, but you can't bounce between the ability score increases of Super Mortal God, and you can't spend more ki on a Kamehameha. For future reference, if something goes unmentioned, the answer to most questions about it is probably "no".

Hope that helps. --SwankyPants (talk) 21:09, 29 July 2022 (MDT)

As SwankPants had said, nothing in the class mentions that you might increase the ki of a charging technique per round.

But i personally never thought about it that way, and in the campaign I've been DMing over a year since this class got running, I handled it in the way you had mentioned, adding ki per round at your choice, and it seems much more reasonable to me that it be that way to be honest, but it's just a DM choice.

About techniques, the only limit to use them are the actions you spent (except for techniques which don't specify an action), and your ki points. If you meet those two requirements, you should be able to do it. P@uL (talk) 22:56, 29 July 2022 (MDT)

Regarding Transformation upgrades, when it says the benefits of previous upgrades carry over, does that include detriments? Also, when it says in grade 4 that you can ignore any effects of the transformation... What does that mean? What could I ignore? FrickyDiBoop (talk) 16:38, 6 September 2022 (MDT)

All effects, beneficial or detrimental, should be gained (effects should probably replace benefits). If a transformation does anything, it allows you to forgo it (useful examples of this would be forgoing Grade 3's Dexterity decrease, Purple Comet Hurricane decreasing your movement speed, the Frost Demon transformations changing your size category) as long as it is not the technique having an adjective (detailed under Transformations) or the technique having a maintenance cost, as stated in Grade 4.--Ref3rence (talk) 18:37, 6 September 2022 (MDT)

All effects, go as Reference has mentioned, "All benefits" mean only the beneficial effects, such as str increase but not ki consumption.

P@uL (talk) 10:44, 7 September 2022 (MDT)

Hey what does the android transformation mean with the exhaustion cost, is it permanent or what or?

Exhaustion goes away on a long rest as always, it's just there to make rapid learning/unlearning less abuseable. --SwankyPants (talk) 00:49, 16 October 2022 (MDT)

Now that my summer break is almost here, I've been thinking about putting in some work here and there from time to time, is there something in particular any of you suggest I should work on? I myself have one idea, should I rebuild the existent characters in the bestiary to go along with the many differences in the rules made since they were created? P@uL (talk) 13:26, 22 May 2023 (MDT) Is it possible to make homebrew transformations and moves or naw- killshot

Generally the things that are already in the class should be good enough, you could change around the requirements or use them as a guideline.

For example, if you wanted to homebrew a transformation for an alien race you made using the rubber forehead alien template, you could take the super saiyan forms, change the requirement to that race and just make some cosmetic changes or add +2 to a stat bonus while reducing another by 2, that's just one suggestion. Generally just use what you have here as guidelines for your homebrew in your campaign, the sky is your limit. P@uL (talk) 03:15, 12 November 2023 (MST)

Questions specifically about charging. First, charging is initiated by using your action. do you need to continue using your action each round to continue charging it and could someone with action surge use it to spend another action progressing the charge? Secondly, specifically for Masenko, it has a 0.5 round charge. so my question for that is, if a creature/player has the action economy (such as 2 bonus actions), could they, in a single turn, use their action for the first 0.5 charge, then use one of their bonus actions and half their movement speed for another 0.5 rounds, and then use their last bonus action and remaining half movement speed for another 0.5 rounds charge adding up to a grand total of 1.5 rounds charge per round? if i'm not mistaken, the number of rounds required to charge is not so much based on action economy, but instead the actual rounds progressing determines charging speed (baring any feats that specifically allow them to speed up charging)? please let me know. - CleverNot 21:48, 15 July, 2024 (EST)

Hello CleverNot! If you perform any other action while concentrating on a charging technique (as with action surge), even if already charged this round, you'll need to pass a concentration check with a DC equal to the technique's DC or lose it completely.

Regarding action surge and similar features, RAW (rules as written), you cannot use them to charge techniques faster. Charging is based on rounds, not action economy, which only applies to the initiation of the technique. For 0.5 techniques like Masenko, you can initiate it with two 0.5 actions to count as 1 turn of charging. However, RAI (rules as intended) is to use the same action type required to initiate the technique to continue charging it. I will clarify this on the page. -P@uL (talk) 04:23, 16 July 2024 (MDT)

When using the Technique Enhancement feature, could you choose the Flurry of Blows Ki technique to add two more damage dice to it? or does the ki technique need to specifically list damage dice? - CleverNot 1:16AM EST

RAW you can add the Technique Enhancement feat to Flurry of Blows, but it would not increase the damage dice of both strikes, only one of them would get the damage dice increase. -- P@uL (talk) 00:10, 17 August 2024 (MDT)

After reading "Wolf Fang Fist" it seems as though some information is missing, the whole "embodying the aggressive fighting style of a wolf" makes it seem like youre doing something similar to "Purple Comet Hurricane" where you are doing this as an action or more likely bonus action to apply to the whole turn, especially since it continues to state "When you make an unarmed strike you make 1 additional unarmed strike" if it was meant to be applied per attack the cost seems steep and it'd make much more sense if, like most other effects that are a single instance applied when doing X, it said "as part of making an unarmed strike" -- 1kili2 3:28 AM, 19th of September 2024 (CEST)

Hi mate, I see you've had a question I've had in the past. Wolf Fang First is Yamcha's move, where he starts a hail of blows at high speed, descriptively it's very similar to Purple Comet Hurricane, but Wolf Fang First says that you can make 1 extra attack per 2 Ki, with a limit equal to the number of attacks you make without using it (I.e: If you make 3 attacks from a Attack Action and Bonus Action, you can make +3 extra attack and paying 2 per Wolf Fang First extra attack). For its part, Purple Comet Hurricane is a transformation and it turns your movement to 0 and makes you move with each hit, but you can only make 2 additional attacks on your turn. Wolf Fang First has ‘The Advantage’ of being able to make more attacks, but it's more expensive, while Purple Comet Hurricane has to pay 5 ki at once and maintain the effect as long as it maintains the transformation. -- Midalos 22:43 PM, 18th of September 2024 (UTC-3)

It's just as Midalos said, the wording 'When you make an unarmed strike you make 1 additional unarmed strike' means that you can use it as long as you can make unarmed strikes in some shape or form but it would be costly the more unarmed strikes you choose to add with it. It's also intended that the additional unarmed strikes made by wolf fang fist do not count as eligible strikes for this by the way. -- P@uL (talk) 23:41, 18 September 2024 (MDT)

Hello, back at it again with my bs. i have found a critical flaw with the technique enhancement feature. the instance i am running right now is a 12th level saiyan that knows two vital ki techniques. Ki Blast and Spirit Ball. This saiyan, at this level, can use technique enhancement to increase the damage of Spirit Ball by twice its damage dice. as per the conversation i had previously about Technique Enhancement and Flurry of Blows, despite Spirit Ball and Flurry of Blows specifically not listing damage dice, they do deal damage that is granted to them by another source. Spirit Ball's damage source is Ki Blast, and Ki Blast's damage source is your martial arts die. so at 12th level, a Saiyan has 1d10. the following is where it gets broken really fast. As a bonus action, activate Ki Blast, as a free action activate Spirit Ball, for action, use attack action and attack an enemy that is point blank (5ft away). per spirit ball the range can be halved until it reaches 5ft. at 12th level their movement is 50ft. halved is 25, halved again is 10 (rounding down cause 12.5 is weird) and halved again to 5ft. for each halving a creature can be targeted again. so this poor enemy 5ft away from this saiyan is going to be targeted 4 times (1 for the initial and 3 additional for each halving) and can potentially take 7d10/2 (damage is halved due to spirit ball effect) damage for each time. but that's not where it ends because that is just the first attack the saiyan can make. at 12th level the saiyan can make three attacks. so this poor enemy can be targeted 15 times (that's 15 INT saving throws) and potentially take 105d10/2 at the end of the turn. averaged out that is 315 potential damage a turn for just a level 12 character, which idk about you guys, is way too much to deal at just 12th level. i am enforcing the the following as a change to Technique enhancement in my campaign, "technique enhancement can only be applied to techniques that specifically list damage dice as damage." CleverNot 9:40AM EST

Hello my friend! Nice to ya!! :D. Well the Feat that give 2 extra damage die to a technique when you choose, you can't put on things like Spirit Ball as far as i know, because it state that it recieves a Additional Damage Dies, meaning that the technique itself must have a damage die of any type per itself and not by external effects. And also for the whole Spirit Ball technique. Spirit Ball say that when a target is again on the path of the technique, it must remake the saving trow and suffer another damage roll, so if you make a creature make 5 saves, it would make them recieve 5x your Ki Blast damage die (i.e: at lv12 as a Saiyan, a target recieve 5d10 + (5x Your Ki Modifier). assuming they fail every single save). And Finally as per rule of More Action, a creature can only do 1 Free Action per turn, so you can't make 3 Spirit Balls on your turn. to conclude all this talk, your saiyan at lv12 would make a Spirit Ball attack on ONE of it's ki blast, that deals 4x your Ki Blast Damage if the target fail all the 4 INT Savings.

Also is no BS man, don't worry, i have my fair share of dumb question that i asked. -- Midalos 12:05 AM, 25th of September 2024 (UTC-3)

You cannot make that much Spirit balls in one turn, due to it being a free action and activating the ki blast technique being a bonus action, so the only action left is your standard which is to attack. I've specifically made it a free action to tackle the issue of multiple Spirit balls in the past. That said, thanks for reaching out and don't hesitate to mention any other problems you encounter, it makes a better game for all of us. -- P@uL (talk) 10:18, 25 September 2024 (MDT)

this is for Paul, so free actions are not free? they are limited? and this is for Midalos, with that being said, you could not put it on flurry of blows because flurry of blows does not specifically list damage dice, right? and thank you both for the answers. CleverNot 12:28PM EST

Your doubts should be clarified in More Actions (5e Variant Rule) where it speaks about the limitations and uses of actions. -- P@uL (talk) 10:44, 25 September 2024 (MDT)

Midalos: As far as I know and RAW, that's exactly it. The GM can interpret it as being Additional Dice for the final value (so a Final Flash would give xd20 + 2d20 in the value, where X is the normal Final Flash chosen by the player) or the GM can say it's for the base value of the Technique (which I don't recommend doing, because otherwise techniques like final flash get 3d20 per point). -- Midalos 14:03 AM, 25th of September 2024 (UTC-3)

Killshot:How do android transformation work? Like each of them are a base transformation that aren't necessarily leading into each other like the super Saiyan but if you ever forget one do you also forget all of them? Or each of them passive? Do they each take up a technique slot technically? And how does forgetting being an Android work? (Sorry all questioned my players are asking)

Hi Killshot! thanks for asking. First and most important is that you must have Android Active (the Android Transformation is not like other forms, once you equiped in your Technique Slots, they are on effect and this is for any form of Android forms) and for every slot you spend to one of the Androids paths (Bio-Android or Super Android), the effects are activated until it's unlearned from your slots and you can't pick your Perfect Form if you don't have Imperfect Form. (Just think like this A -> B -> C. You can't have C without A and B, but can have B without C)

If you have Imperfect, Semi-Perfect and Perfect Form and you unlearn Semi-Perfect, you lose/can't access the Perfect Form, but not the Imperfect (They work like a ladder, which you climb up rung by rung), this is the same for Super Android Path, where if you don't have Infinite Energy Model, you can't use Super Android, but can use the Android effects.

Also as i remember, the exhaustion points are there until you unlearn this "transformation", so if you unlearn all your Android Forms, you lose all the points, but thoses points can't be lost by normal means like taking a long rest. think of them more like: I Spend a Slot for thoses Effects. kinda of thingy ya know?

If you or any of you players have questions, don't worry, just ask. Hope you have a great day/night :D --Midalos (talk) 19:26, 21 October 2024 (MDT)

It's as Midalos said save for the part about the exhaustion points, the exhaustion is a cost just as ki is a cost to transform into a Super Saiyan, it is meant to represent the need to recover after being turned into an android as that is usually done through extreme means such as surgery, so you get exhaustion once you obtain the transformation, but it isnt around for the duration of the transformation, it is lost in the same way as an other exhaustion source.

-- P@uL (talk) 00:03, 22 October 2024 (MDT)

Killshot: hey thanks that helps a lot but I do have another question,does the android transform states trigger the additional damage for koioken? Just asking cause it is changing your body kinda differently then like ssj which is just a power up.

Hi again Killshot! about the Kaioken + Android, it does not trigger the 10x damage, as the Kaioken only deals 10x damage if you go beyond your Constitution modifier and/or you are already in a transformation that restricts a use of a Technique (So if you would have a Transformation that would not allow you to use Kamehameha, you would recieve 10x damage if you used Kaioken). And yes, the 10x are exponential (as far as i know), so you would take 100x damage if you are under both effects

Big Hugs broda!! :D

--Midalos (talk) 04:39, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, does SSGSS not exist in this setting? I would think the way to do that is by using a Super Saiyan Form along with a Godly Base such as Super Mortal God, but that's not possible, because a Godly Base can only be used with a Godly Form. Is there an exception in that case? I'm really not sure how it's intended to work. I may be missing something. Parcival001 (talk) 16:31, 26 November 2024 (MST)

Hi Parcival, thanks for asking. SSGSS (Blue for short) already exist in the setting, but it's not a like normal transformations. To achieve SSJ Blue, you must put SSJ1 (or any SSJ if you wish) or Super Mortal God in Grade 5, as the Grade 5 say you can change/add/remove the Adjective in a transformation (along with all the effects that Grades gives to your transformation). Super Mortal God Evolved is the SSJ Blue Evolution.... so yeah, you can make not only SSJ Blue, but you can make SSJ2,3,4 or 5 Blue. Somethings in this setting are not in your face, so mix and match to see what you can make (and i mean not only Transformations, but also Techniques and combos that characters do in Dragon Ball).

Big Hugs broda!! :D

--Midalos (talk) 04:39, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Back again with clarification (or maybe i missed a rule. there's a lot going on in this homebrew and it is a love-hate relationship. mainly love though). can someone stack on multiple techniques onto a singular action. to clarify, 20th level martial artist does the attack action, as a bonus action the use full power blow, burning all other extra attacks to boost that, then because they are making an unarmed strike, they add on sledgehammer, Bite, Critical Upper, Arm Break and Rock Scissors 'N' Paper: Rock!, and supposing they hit, they add on iagiri on top of that. i fully understand the flexibility of punches especially in the dragon ball universe where a single punch seems to do so much in terms of effects and damage, but at what point should there be a limit to how much affects a single punch/technique?

Also, i question the wording a bit of Blue Eyed Form. the 4th bulletin that states "You may replace one ability score increased by less than +25 by a transformation you are in with an equal increase to your Wisdom score." is it saying that you take one ability score that has been increased by less than +25 (due to a transformation) and take that boost of less than +25 and give yourself another boost to your Wisdom? or is it saying you take an ability score that has been increased by less than +25 (due to a transformation) and make it a +30 to said ability score? i'm ruling on the former, but i can definitely see both sides on that. (also Happy Thanksgiving to you guys) - CleverNot 10:51, 28 November 2024 (EST)

For your first point yes the stacking is possible, for your second point you remove a boost of less than +25 and give it to your Wisdom instead, I can see where the wording brings about confusion so I've clarified it. -- P@uL (talk) 16:12, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

As Paul said, you can have ALL techniques that gives your unarmed strike a effect in a single strike. If you think this is not your cup of tea, you can do how i handle this with my players, we added this small rule for ourselfs: "You can't use more than your Proficiency Bonus in techniques in a single Unarmed Strike". (It was kinda of mutual aggrement to not force a character to roll 7 diferent saves with each one having it's own effect.)

This way is more a personal take on it with my players and don't take it as truth to balance to the setting, but you can try using it. Hope i helped ya and Big Hugs Broda :D

--Midalos (talk) 15:17, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Major Changes

Want to change something fundamental to the page? It'll be a hard sell, but there's no reason your thoughts shouldn't be heard out. Just be prepared to change some creatures.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:03, 15 November 2021 (MST)

Charged techniques become extremely insignificant in favor of unarmed strikes at later level, any remedy for that? Maybe you can reduce the unarmed damage? Charging seems so useless unless you have multiple allies, because even then the opponent can just move out of range due to you being unable to move at all even if it's charged. P@uL (talk) 15:04, 18 March 2022 (MDT)

A while back I thought there could maybe be an "enhanced charging" feat, making those kinda techniques more usable in a proper fight, instead of just cinematic types of things. It seemed like an incredible pain to balance, so I ended up deciding against it, although maybe it could be rolled into something. My immediate idea was that it would allow you to reduce the time by X to a minimum of 1, X either being an ability modifier divide something, or just a flat 2. Able to be taken multiple times, although that's where I get concerned about balance again. --SwankyPants (talk) 22:17, 20 March 2022 (MDT)

I have an idea, what if, we do something along the lines of

Enhanced Charging

At XXth level, when you charge a technique, you may accelerate the process by giving up conservation and carefulness in exchange for a more immediate attack, overcharging your attack with ki, When you charge a technique with a charging time of at least 1 round and a ki cost, you may double its ki cost to consider it charged for one round, you may do this additional times at once as many times as your Proficieny bonus divided by 3 rounded down in one technique, it still must pass initiative 20 to be considered fully charged.

So for example, I'll use Frieza's stat sheet in the bestiary.

Frieza is in his suppressed form with a total ki of 29. Frieza begins charging supernova which costs 5 ki points, but he wants to charge it faster. He has a proficiency bonus of 7 so he can use enhanced charging twice in one technique. So he doubles the ki cost making it 10, and doubles it again making it 20. Now he's charged a supernova with a damage of 3d12+42 and waits until initiative 20 before he can launch it.

Another example with Namek saga Goku.

Goku has 27 ki points. He starts charging a Kamehameha which costs 5 ki points, but rather than wasting time he wants to blast it immediately, so he doubles the ki cost making it 10 and the charging time one round then on the next initiative 20 he fires it as normal. P@uL (talk) 03:12, 22 March 2022 (MDT)

Due to the insane to hit this class has, it truly becomes unfun to play once you reach later levels so I will try to get this under control by lowering the proficiency bonus and limiting the amount of ability score points you can put into one score at once. P@uL (talk) 14:35, 10 May 2022 (MDT)

Based on the new Monk from the new D&D books, something that might be interesting to bring from there to here. It's adding the new version of Deflect Missiles, which in Monk 2024 is no longer limited to just projectiles but can now be used on attacks that deal Bludgeoning, Piercing and Slashing damage. It wouldn't be possible to bring back the effect of being able to return a blow to the attacker, since that would basically be getting Exchange Blow for free (but a simple way round this is to allow Exchange Blow to be used in conjunction with ‘Deflect Damage’ perhaps).

Also, it wouldn't change the feature itself, since it would ultimately be the same thing, but it would provide one more defensive option for the class. In addition, the class's Deflect Energy Feature would be transformed into Monk 2024's Deflect Energy (which allows Deflect Damage to be used on acid, cold, fire, lightning, force, necrotic, radiant, or thunder damage).

Of course, this would cause a lot of work to update ALL the NPC sheets, but it's something that I (if wanted to) could do without any problems. (Also this would allow for the classic scenes in Dragon Ball where characters deflect ki blasts and other techniques. As how Ki Blasts and techniques where RAW would not be counted to the Deflect Missile feature, cuz they would not be counted as Ranged attacks)

Example of what I'm saying:

Deflect Damage

Starting at 2nd level, you can use your reaction to deflect or reduce the damage when hit by a attack that deals Bludgeoning, Slashing or Piercing Damage. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your martial artist level.

At 37th level, the damage you can reduce increases to 3d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your martial artist level.

Deflect Energy

At 25th level, when you take acid, cold, fire, lightning, force, necrotic, radiant, or thunder damage, you can use the Deflect Damage Feature as would be used with Bludgeoning, Slashing or Piercing Damage.

Exchange Blow: As a reaction for 2 Ki Points. When an attack roll is made against you, you make an unarmed attack against the attacker. This Technique can be also used when a damage is reduced to 0 by the Deflect Damage Feature

--Midalos (talk) 17:24, 12 October 2024 (MDT)

While I get your wanting to implement the monk's current Deflect missiles and is something I have thought about myself, when it comes to "deflecting" melee attacks the attack clash Variant Rules already cover that and more so converting this to the new monk version would simply result in a much stronger and potentially much less costly version so it should be kept as is.

The same applies for Deflect Energy, as if it becomes an ambiguous reduction to damage types with the reduction power of deflect missiles, balance when it comes to dealing with ki moves that would otherwise require saving throws, will go out the window, there are currently many ways that one can reduce the damage they could take from things such as Kamehameha that would require spending a resource of sorts, and implementing it in this way would cause either these options to be invalid or further devalue the use of such techniques which was difficult to bring to its current appeal of use.

I'm all for adding more options for this class as its supposed to be diverse, but we need to be careful with everything that we add so that it doesn't devalue either other similar options that already exist or what it would be used against.

So I would suggest that Deflect Missiles are kept specifically for ranged attacks to avoid any of this, and if you were to change Deflect Energy to more resemble Deflect Missiles (which is fine) add that specification into it as well, which would end up applying to such things as ki blasts without butchering other techniques. -- P@uL (talk) 05:12, 13 October 2024 (MDT)

While it can sure help to match other techniques, if you want to keep using Charging Techniques, you really need to get the Technique Enhancement Feat. it per self can be something to help balance the whole Feat and the usage of Charging Techniques, but after some testing and talking with myself, the effect to expend 1 Ki point for 1 extra damage die, could be a effect in the Enhanced Charging Feature. By doing this, help in the core class to match Charging Techniques to later levels and don't forces a Character to spend a ASI to get a feat to keep using one technique. Giving the fact that when you got the feature, you have +7 (that is counted as 6), you could make a +2 dices, so its the same as getting the feat and if you still get the feat, you would still gain +2 extra die to the base value of the technique besides any effects of the feature. So if you REALLY wanna focus the feat in one charging technique it will show better results for that technique.

BUT boths effects of Enhanced Charging features would count as one for the feature itself, so you can choose to pay 1+ extra Ki for 1+ dices of damage or pay the base cost of technique to charge 1 round (so a Kamehameha with a character with 3 times per turn of the effects of Enhanced Charging Feature, could pay +3 to +3d10 in the turn OR pay +15 Ki for 3 Extra Charges)

With all that in mind and to end all this mambojambo, the Feature would be the following:

Enhanced Charging

At 21st level, when you charge a technique, you may accelerate the process by giving up conservation and carefulness in exchange for a more immediate attack, overcharging your attack with ki, When you use your action to charge or begin charging a technique with a charging time of at least half a round and a ki cost, you may spend its base ki cost an additional time to consider it charged for a round or you can pay 1 extra ki point everytime you charge the technique adding an amount of damage die up to the amount this feature can be used per turn. you may do this as many times as your Proficiency bonus divided by 3 per turn.

Techniques which have a base charging time of half a round, don't gain your ki attack modifier to damage per round considered charged in this way.

At 36th level, you may add your unarmed damage die to the damage of techniques that are charged each round it is charged.

--Midalos (talk) 14:19, 20 October 2024 (MDT)

While this is a great idea and I get where you're coming from, the feature "Enhanced Charging" itself was made to make charging more appealing, I don't see a problem with spending a Feat to make a specific technique better as that gives more customization options. Enhanced Charging is not meant to be cheap, that is why it's the base cost of the charging, making it so that adding a +1 ki point per extra die of the get go, would make it way too easy and similar to the cheap but time consuming normal charging, which Enhanced charging is supposed to be a more expensive but faster version of.

However, I don't think that your idea should be completely dismissed, so if you would want to keep going on with this idea. I suggest that the added die be limited to being done only once per turn and not anymore than that, while the Feat version is there for anyone who wants to further rectify this problem for a certain technique they favor much.

--P@uL (talk) 02:03, 21 October 2024 (MDT)

Well, with that in mind. the only thing that is needed to be added to Enhanced Charging is the following line: "Once per turn when you use this feature, you add one extra dice of damage to the technique", so if you want to pump a technique with speed and a little more power, by the core class you already can, but if you REALLY like a Charging Technique and want to keep using them, the mix of Feat and Feature would be perfect like this (And also this make people that don't pick the feat have a huge gap between them, they still will have a gap, but nothing crazy). so that way, you can keep a charging technique instead of just go Magnun Finger/Dondo Ray + Full Power Blow. Thank's for reading and the guidance again Paul :] --Midalos (talk) 08:00, 21 October 2024 (MDT)

Other

Want to say something, but don't feel like it falls into any of the above? Say it here!--Ref3rence (talk) 12:03, 15 November 2021 (MST)

UI Goku

So anyone planning on fixing ultra instinct Goku? Because that looks too wrong and I don't think we should leave it that way forever. P@uL (talk) 14:46, 1 November 2021 (MDT)

What's the issue? Also how do you guys leave the info like date and stuff or do you just type it out? Deducted

While I don't entirely understand the issue, you can generate a signature by typing ~~~~ or by clicking the squiggly between italics and links at the top of the editing menu.--Ref3rence (talk) 10:41, 15 November 2021 (MST)

From a quick glance, his ki points are immediately off(should be 65 instead of 64). Besides that? No clue. I'm not the one that built it or the the one that made this comment. --SwankyPants (talk) 10:44, 15 November 2021 (MST)

I think what P@ul may be talking about is how similar MUI Goku and SSB Kaioken is, besides some minor differences like no more hp loss and Disadvantage on first attack, MUI is not much different, both are virtually the same, with differences so minor it's almost unnoticeable. -Deducted (talk) 11:10, 15 November 2021 (MST)

To be fair, there's only a CR difference of 2, and both of the differences you listed are pretty major (particularly the maximum hit point decrease).--Ref3rence (talk) 11:29, 15 November 2021 (MST)

Looking back at this now that I'm updating a few things, the stats on the sheet for Blue Kaioken which are on par with the ultra instinct form are only those of the first level Kaioken, and with the huge increase of maximum hp that super Saiyan blue can give, Kaioken can be raised even higher (and get it to far surpass what ultra instinct can do for Goku) without any immediate issues, this isn't a problem of the forms, but rather that with how Goku's built any strength bonuses are more significant than ultra instinct with its sole dex bonus (to his already mediocre dex score) thought I'd put this up here, when I finish all the updates I'll try to make ultra instinct more significant on his sheet. P@uL (talk) 05:45, 28 May 2023 (MDT)

Bio-Android Rework

The current version of Bio-Android is incredibly finnicky. Waiting 39 levels (out of 60 total) while also making yourself much weaker than you would've been otherwise just doesn't make any sense. I have an idea for a rework, I might be the one to do it since I don't want anyone else to potentially make it worse than it already is. I'll plot out my concept and then begin writing. First, the things that need changed. 1. 39 levels is far too many to unlock your race. It should be level 1, or not at all. You could argue the same for Androids themselves, but I just don't have the energy to rework them as well. 2. It shouldn't be "up to the DM" on what racial abilities you get. Any good DM is just going to let their player pick regardless. It's the equivalent of taking away your player's ability to choose their subrace. 3. Having Bio-Android forms be "Base Forms" makes sense in concept, but starting as a Frost Demon and playing for 38 levels only to lose all your transformations and become a Bio-Android feels so cheap. You lose all the things you've built up in return for way worse forms, and now you can't unlock more powerful forms until FAR in the late game, and depending on how DMs might interpret rules, you might not be able to learn new forms at all. Most of the late game forms like UI/UE are locked behind learning their sign variants, which are base forms. Meaning you can't use them, and they eat up a technique slot for quite a few levels. It might be much more fair to consider them supplementary since they're honestly equivalent to a Majin using Liquefaction in terms of power.

This rework will cause Bio-Androids as a whole to change because again, they shouldn't be locked so far into the game. The two ideas I have at the moment are some sort of variant rules that allow players to create their own Bio-Androids over the course of a game. The main reason for this is that Bio-Androids are nothing like a typical DnD race. They're not created equally. You have your Cells and Cell Max, and you have your Android 21's. This system would take a lot of setup since I don't have any good ideas on a way you could gather DNA to create something as weak as normal Cell or as strong as Cell Max and 21. So alternatively, I'd rather create a race where you can just start play as a level 1 Bio-Android. For the sake of time, I'd like to focus on the second one. If anyone has any ideas, please post them here. For the time being I'm going to begin writing them up as a race. The one thing I'd like feedback on is how to properly rework the Bio-Android transformations, because at this moment, my only idea are to erase them entirely and start from scratch, and I'd rather not step on anyone else's shoes. Spooks2222 (talk) 13:05, 15 November 2024 (MST)

Hello Spooks! I agree with what you said earlier, I understand the idea of letting the GM choose which features are received (already to avoid massive combos of racial features), but just as a GM can choose, he can also deny, so it really is better (in my opinion) to give the player the ability to choose their features.

Regarding the Bio-Android Race, I support the idea of producing two new races, being Androids and Bio-Androids (since even though in theory they are based on the same foundation, they are extremely different from each other, just as Machine Mutants are from Neo-Machine Mutants).

And just as there are features in the Races that evolve over time, the same could be done with the effects of the forms, but of course still leaving them in the class, since sometimes the character in the story may not start out as an Android and then become one. anything i could help, i will, for sure! d=====(￣▽￣) ----Midalos (talk) 13:35, 15 November 2024 (MST)

I agree that the class feature/form for Bio-Androids itself should be left in to better represent Android 21. The race itself was just added. It does need an actual image to be put into it (preferably in the exact same place it is in the code for Frost Demons). I think a Max transformation should be added to represent Cell-Max. As for Android 21's transformation into a Majin, I'm entirely unsure how to add it. I don't know if it would be classified as a Base Transformation or a Form Transformation. If it is created by anyone, it shouldn't be limited to being a "majin" type of transformation. The whole reason she turns into a Majin is just because that's the DNA that works with her body best I suppose. I don't see any reason that a Bio-Android couldn't go Golden or Super Saiyan if they had a closeness with that race like 21 has with her Majin forms. It'll take a lot of extra thinking. I just wanted to lay the ground work. Spooks2222 (talk) 13:57, 15 November 2024 (MST)

The Bio-Android Rework has reached a functional state. It would take far too long to note everything about them here, so I'll try my best to summarize. Bio-Androids are very cost heavy, both in monetary and time spent. It takes lots of Zeni, and potentially dozens of years for a Bio-Android to be complete. While a Bio-Android player will be stronger than a normal player on average, that is something that's ultimately decided by the players and the DM. It is possible to craft a Bio-Android that is weaker than a player, or much stronger, or exactly on par. That's up to the party or DM creating it. The time spent, the cells fused, and the features chosen will end up changing where it falls in power. Typically, it will take a good portion of the campaign to create a Bio-Android, but I think the long amounts of time and effort that go into it more than explain why they have so much potential. Bio-Androids will always be leagues ahead of the average person if their creators decide that's what they need to be. As Akira Toriyama himself stated, had Cell Max been fully completed, not even Broly could defeat him. I'm going to be testing a Bio-Android created out of Level 1 Cells in a campaign before the end of the year, as I want to test the creation process and balancing of the creature itself as a whole. I would appreciate feedback, but my goal at the moment is not to "nerf" or otherwise weaken their race. They are meant to be entirely scalable by the DM, so you can accomplish either very accurate, very balanced, or a mix of both in your campaigns. It is an Optional Rule, so if a DM finds that it doesn't fit their campaign, and they don't even want to allow players to use a Player Equivalent Bio-Android, they don't need to use it. For now, I'd like to add templates under Evolving Android which represent Bio-Androids similar to Fu and Android 21. Creating a Bio-Android. Spooks2222 (talk) 12:18, 24 November 2024 (MST)

Human Extinction Attack

There's one technique which I've wanted to add for awhile, but I'm unsure of how to properly balance its addition. Super Buu's Human Extinction Attack (or assault rain in Xenoverse) feels like a very complicated addition. My first thought was to take the Variant Rules for Super Destructive Blasts, and change it to focus on damaging low CR creatures instead of structures. After all, creatures like Tien and even Chaotsu were able to avoid it when it's going after the entire planet, but in other media like Xenoverse, the attack can also be scaled back to focus on a single target and deal much more damage to JUST that target. This is the baseline idea for what features the technique should have.

• 1. If the technique is used with little charging, it deals a high amount of damage but has a very tiny range.
• 2. If the technique is charged for longer periods of time, the damage goes down per target, but the range itself rapidly increases to scale up to a planetary size
• You may spend Ki to either rapidly increase the range (as in 2.), to increase the damage of the attack WITHOUT increasing the range (as in 1.), or to increase both at a much higher Ki Cost.
• You should be able to choose not to target certain creatures (As Super Buu avoided Mr.Satan by a few inches during the storm of Ki Blasts)
• The technique should require Ki Sense
• The technique should be a Legendary Technique

Hopefully this should represent the technique's ability to either deal small amounts of damage to a massive group, or large amounts of damage to a single target. Spooks2222 (talk) 12:18, 24 November 2024 (MST)

Elated to see people helping me with my ideas. I've looked over the current version of Mortal Extinction Attack and I love it. There's a solid ground work, but the technique is also insanely OP. So I'd like to explain why I think that, and then pose a solution.

If Martial Arts is 3d8/9d4 at the very first level you can use Mortal Extinction Attack, the minimum damage you can deal with a punch is either 3 or 9, then the maximums for both bits of damage are 24 and 36 respectively. Now, assuming somebody has a 20 in all stats (should be higher by this level due to transformations and ASI), then you would be launching a number of Ki Blasts equal to 5+5+5+39 (Str Mod + Dex Mod + Wisdom + Martial Artist level). Each and every one of these Ki Blasts has the ability to deal 3d8/9d4 damage. Meaning the minimum damage you could deal with this technique is either 162 Damage, or 486 Damage. The maximum damage is 1296 and 1944. This is absolutely wild, because this is still assuming you're not dealing the maximum damage that you could with modifiers. Now, this is somewhat offset because of the middle line of text. "A creature can be targeted by no more than half your proficiency bonus (rounded down) Ki Blasts". At the earliest level you could unlock this feature (39) you'd have a halved proficiency of 5. Therefore, you could target 1 creature and deal a minimum of 5*3d8 or 5*9d4. So a minimum of 15 and 45, and a maximum of 120 and 180. Until, you then "halve the current range of this technique, and cause the amount of Ki Blasts that can target a single creature to increase by half proficiency", leading to you now being able to deal a minimum of 30 or 90, and a maximum of 300 or 900. I had entirely expected somebody else to jump and strike it from the page at that point. I'm glad they were slow on it this time, because that means that we can still work on it and discuss fixes. I could be entirely misinterpreting this ability by looking over some line of text, but from what I can tell, this is an accurate depiction of the current technique.

So, how do we fix this?

• Change "You launch a number of Ki Blasts equal to Str Mod + Dex Mod + Wis Mod + Martial Artist Level" to something much smaller, but allow more Ki Blasts to be charged by spending more Ki.
• Require the technique to rely on Strength OR Dex instead of both, as that would lead to much higher damage levels regardless.
• Allow the user to choose who is and isn't attacked by the blasts (as Hercule/Mr Satan was ignored by these blasts last second.)
• Make the technique easier to avoid entirely, since somebody as weak as Tien and Chiaotzu would easily able to avoid the blasts. It was mainly Humans that couldn't react in time.

And what should we keep?

• The name (I love it)
• Range being equal to your Ki Sense Range
• Have the feature be a full turn action
• Having the technique tied into physical ability scores so you can't pump wisdom to maximize damage output.

It may take me awhile,, but I'm going to try my best to rebalance the technique with the ideas I set out here. If any of this has any holes in it or could be improved, let me know. Spooks2222 (talk) 01:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I've finished rebalancing the technique. Under these new rules, you may only launch a number of Ki Blasts equal to your Str/Dex Mod Proficiency Bonus. Assuming 20 in all stats, this would be 5+5 (Str+Prof), for a total of 10 Ki Blasts. However, you may split the die from each Ki Blasts into their own, new Ki Blasts (Ex. If your Martial Arts Die is 3d8, you may now launch 3 separate 1d8 Ki Blasts at 3 separate creatures). Additionally, the attack now functions with a Saving Throw. This allows creatures to evade the attack entirely on a successful save. I'll run the new numbers and compare it to the old numbers.

• Old Version: Maximum Damage overall was 1296 or 1944
• Current Version: Maximum Damage Overall is 10*3d8 and 10*9d4, which is either 240 Damage or 360, with several opportunities for creatures to escape it and much lower opportunities to maximize damage.

Now, is this still OP? Let's compare it to some of the other heavy hitters. I'm going to assume that any Techniques with a cost lower than 10 are being treated as if you charged the technique to the same cost as Mortal Extinction Attack.

• 240/360 vs. 800 (Mortal Extinction Attack vs Stardust Breaker)
• 240/360 vs. 800 (Mortal Extinction Attack vs Final Explosion)
• 360/540 vs. 400 (Mortal Extinction Attack vs Final Flash)

Due to the damage being split across enemies, and the cost being incredibly high, this technique lands in a lower area than some of the wildly powerful techniques, but still either slightly above or below some of the typical techniques like Final Flash. Running these numbers has lead me to wonder if Stardust Breaker meant to specify that the additional Ki Points spent add 2d20, rather than the current wording which claims the first 5 Ki Points spent add 2d20 and every Ki Point spent from thereon does the same, but that's not my focus for tonight. Under these current rules, MEA should be a fine technique. Spooks2222 (talk) 02:46, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Gigantic Lariat Rework

Gigantic Lariat doesn't really make any sense in its current state.

• It functions nearly the exact same as Massive Blow, except (from how it was written), it's entirely free? There's no mention of spending Ki to activate Gigantic Lariat normally. The only time spending Ki is mentioned is during the "grappled" section of text. This could just be bad wording though. On top of that, you'd be better off using Massive Blow because it has additional effects for if you collide with an object, where Gigantic Lariat doesn't. Additionally, they have the exact same saving throw, except with Massive Blow, if they succeed the check they still have to move half of the distance. Gigantic Lariat just lets them escape.
• It says that the cost of the Technique is "3+" Ki Points, which doesn't make any sense because you can't spend extra Ki on it. The "3+" on a technique is supposed to indicate that the minimum you can spend is 3 Ki, but you can spend extra to perform a stronger effect which is the "+". That isn't the case with the current version.
• The final line of text says you have to "pay" the Ki Cost of +3, but this is the only time spending Ki has been mentioned, so is it saying you have to spend an additional +3 on the base cost (which isn't mentioned anywhere), or is it saying that this is the "+" aspect. Because if it is... why? The text essentially reads "If you are grappling a creature, you can spend an additional 3 Ki Points (total of 6) to use Gigantic Lariat without first using Rebellion Spear (it makes no mention of rebellion spear, that's where I'm getting this from)." So either the technique is saying you need to spend 3 Extra Ki (6 total) to do something you should already be able to do for 3 Ki Points, or it's saying that you can spend 3 Ki Points to activate Gigantic Lariat without Rebellion Spear, which saves 1 Ki Point. Which, at that point, if you're going for cost effective why not just use Massive Blow?

Typically a technique like this would be removed since it could be OP if you stack it with Massive Blow, but I don't want to just remove it when it could be reworked.

Regarding the Lariat, it's better to leave it without the disadvantage (because there's a feat that can already do it and Ki in this setting isn't a problem with Ki Charge), but also because the idea of the Lariat is for you to move without wasting your movement, so in theory you can cause all your attacks to be a lariat or one BIG Lariat.

‘But why would I do that?’, in this case, in the class there's the half charge, which can be done with your movement, you can combine a Lariat to carry you and the creature away (which is something Massive Blow doesn't do, as only the target move), spend your movement to half charge a charging technique, use Enhanced Charging to charge the technique on your turn and use Reaction to unleash the technique. so in one turn you can pick up a guy, move him to a place where you don't hit your party and make a "killing blow" with a any charging technique (Broly would do Lariat + Eraser Cannon)

So all in all, Lariat is really good for ‘Crowd Control’, since you can get the creatures to a point you want and then finish the job right there (even more so if you use Sledghammer in Lariat), so Lariat how it is now, is perfect to the whole "Combo" thing this class has.

also, about the Massive Blow part, you can't use Lariat + Massive Blow, as both ask for a free action, Ki Blast would use your Bonus Action and the Attack Action would cost your Action, so you would only have a Reaction and/or moviment to use it. And for a Full Power Blow + Lariat, you would need to use Ki Blast as a bonus action, Your attack action, your Reaction to massive blow, your free action to Lariat.

--Midalos (talk) 21:56, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

If we're going at the angle that no features should overlap (as you mentioned with disadvantage and its feat) then we should also remove Gigantic Lariat for overlapping with Massive Blow. From this point on, I'll more likely than not ignore any instances of "but these techniques are similar", because I've seen your features overlap with others. Those features have also been good features. My point is, you have made features that are similar to other features and I've left them in, both in my creations which you've edited and your own. It's not a good excuse anymore. If you think that no techniques or features can overlap, then we can look through everything we've both created and remove half of it together. Instead of that, let's just focus on the technique. You responded with "the idea of the Lariat is for you to move without wasting your movement." You can do that with Instant Transmission and Massive Blow for 2 Ki. You could also spend additional Ki to launch (and follow) your target further than Lariat would take you.

"So in theory you can cause all your attacks to be a lariat or one BIG Lariat." You wouldn't ever want to spam Lariat, even if you wanted to, that's not possible. As you mentioned it takes a Free Action to Lariat. You can't "cause all your attacks to be Lariat" because you only get the one Free Action. Even if you could, It would be 5 Ki to do it once (+1 to activate Ki Blast, +1 to use Rebellion Spear, +3 to use Lariat) Every additional Lariat would be another 4 Ki. Doing it 3 times in 1 turn would cost 13 Ki to do. That's assuming you don't spend any additional Ki to "enhance" the Lariat, it's also assuming you don't spend an additional 2 Ki while grappling to make it a reaction. So at minimum you're spending 5 Ki. Plus, now the enemy is far away from the rest of your party. I could instead knock the enemy away and use Instant Transmission for 2 Ki and still get multiple attacks in at half the Ki Cost, or spend a little bit more to bring my party along so I don't inconvenience them. Not to mention you need to spend your Bonus Action to activate Ki Blast, then you need to spend an attack to use the attack, then you need to spend your Free Action to use Lariat. I could instead just hit them with my hands, no Ki Blast, knock them away with Massive Blow, then follow up with Instant Transmission for much less Ki.

"So all in all, Lariat is really good for ‘Crowd Control’." Lariat is not a "crowd control" move. Crowd Control means that you can hinder or damage a large crowd. Lariat is single target. Massive Blow on the other hand could be classified as Crowd Control because you can effect multiple targets. If you're trying to say you could use it on multiple enemies consecutively.. I cannot see a single use case scenario for that.

"You can't use Lariat + Massive Blow as both ask for a free action", Lariat can be used as a Reaction after grappling an opponent. I think it's best to leave the technique as it is right now, even if it's not viable. Spooks2222 (talk) 22:52, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Although I'm not going to get into the discussion as I am busy lately, this issue is not that urgent and believe either way you resolve this is valid, I wanted to add a small point for your knowledge that due to the way the More Actions rule works, free actions can be used as bonus actions and bonus actions can be used as actions, so in theory you could make three free actions on your turn using your free action, bonus action and action. Or use two bonus actions on your turn using your bonus action or action, cheers. --P@uL (talk) 02:24, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree. The technique isn't likely to get much use regardless since the cost to benefit ratio is wildly off. If it was unbalanced I'd be more concerned with it. With the knowledge that you can make three free actions, I feel that it puts an even bigger gap between the two techniques since that means you could use Instant Transmission to move vastly farther for much less than if you Lariat spammed.

To follow up on the Neo-Tri Beam edit. I like the change that you made to it. I did want to reduce the damage taken by the user in one way or another since Tien's mastery over the technique has helped him do so, but I wasn't sure how to properly implement it. The change you made makes it feel much more sustainable and less punishing for the players to use. I appreciate that. Spooks2222 (talk) 03:23, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

God Ki Changes

The way that God Ki is interacted with in this setting is balanced, but not entirely accurate. I've always thought it was odd you couldn't really interact with it outside of using God Forms, and even then, they're locked behind the late game for that balancing. Because of that I've wanted to rework it, but I don't know the best way to approach it. I figured it would be best to discuss the canon aspects that are missing and then try to figure out a good way to add them from there, if at all. The changes I'd like to see are:

• Being buffed by God Ki outside of your God Forms (such as with Goku and Vegeta's Godly Base)
• Being able to access God Forms at earlier levels. I get the balancing concerns, but in canon there's nothing stopping anyone from training on a planet with pools of God Ki to obtain it and channel it into God Forms (other than the obvious massive Ki Drain). You could outright skip Super Saiyan and go straight to God if your character just trained with God Ki.
• Add a Super Mortal God Ritual. So far, it's been somewhat assumed that you just unlock it by training as Vegeta did.
• Allow ALL races to use God Forms. Plenty of forms are locked out from ever using God Ki because Super Mortal God is considered a Base Form. That means the Frieza Race (who overall really falls behind with their transformation mods) can't ever really reach that same level unless they stay in their Minimal Form and use God Ki, which is just odd. You should be able to infuse God Ki into any form.

I do like the fact that Super Mortal God is accessible to everyone, and that it can be used with most races. I just think races like the Frost Demons and Majin race suffer a lot from being unable to access it, when the already very strong races like Demon and Saiyan can use it easily in conjunction with their normal forms. There's only one solution I can think of at the moment which half accomplishes both goals. Adding a "Godly Base" form that's part of Super Mortal God, which is Supplementary. That way other races can still benefit from God Ki, but maybe not to the same extent as a Saiyan or Demon. I don't really like this outcome in all honesty, it feels like it's more of a bandage on the issue. The alternative would be to rework God Ki as follows:

• Allow all races to "infuse" God Ki into their Base Forms. This would function similar to how applying a Grade Form does, except it increases the Ki Cost even more while adding even more benefits. The issue is that this could be (theoretically) very strong when added on top of Super Mortal God itself, but it wouldn't be inaccurate since Goku was able to perfect Super Saiyan Blue in the Manga. It would still give Saiyans one more thing in their favor though. So instead of buffing everyone else, it's buffing everyone all together, which doesn't close the gap between Saiyans and other races like I'd hoped. If anyone can rework this in a way that accomplishes what I'm going for, be my guest.

That's the total extent of the ideas I have at the moment. I hope everyone has a good Thanksgiving. Spooks2222 (talk) 20:24, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

To address the idea of being buffed by God Ki outside of God Forms: God Ki doesn’t fundamentally require a separate system, as its main distinction lies in being undetectable by normal Ki sensing, as shown in the source material. Someone with normal Ki can still overpower a God Ki user. The perceived power difference often comes from the higher baseline strength of God Ki users, but this is not a fixed rule since stronger normal Ki users can still match or exceed them.

For buffing base forms with God Ki, I can see two primary approaches with myself preferring the first one:

• 1. Levels: A character with access to God Ki is likely a higher level, naturally reflecting their increased power and allowing them to contend with transformed opponents even in base form. This also illustrates how a sufficiently powerful normal Ki user can still compete.
• 2. Super Mortal God: By applying Grade 4 to Super Mortal God, a user can access its full power without transforming. This mirrors how Goku and Vegeta used Super Saiyan God power without transforming in Resurrection F (later retconned or seemingly forgotten in Dragon Ball Super).

On the topic of accessing God Forms at earlier levels, this aligns with the intent behind the Epic Boon described in the Treasure page, which allows early access to features without disrupting the class balance.

Regarding the Super Mortal God ritual: this is a narrative element left to the DM, just like unlocking Super Saiyan forms, rage states, or Ultra Instinct. The class is designed to provide mechanics and tools not to dictate narrative conditions or requirements.

As for races with powerful base transformations, the inability to stack multiple base forms is intentional as I believe you already know. These races can always choose the stronger form, and this limitation is eased at level 60. Majins and Frost Demons, in particular, have exceptionally strong base forms Majins with regeneration and damage negation, and Frost Demons with low Ki costs that make their forms effectively permanent. This design ensures balance and doesn’t require changes.

Finally, allowing all races to infuse God Ki into base forms is covered by the first point: God Ki’s uniqueness is primarily narrative, not mechanical, and higher levels or DM driven storytelling naturally account for any associated buffs. --P@uL (talk) 13:45, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Originally I had wrote a lot about how Kibito Kai and Supreme Kai are vastly more powerful than the average person, despite training just as much as a typical human (which is not at all), but I don't really feel the need to hammer home the point that God Ki takes most people a large step above where they're currently at. I don't think that either of those characters have a higher baseline strength, because they don't do anything, and their race doesn't do anything to give them a higher baseline. If anything, they're the strongest people of their race because they have God Ki, and that's really all they've done different than anyone else they're related to. Yes, they are surpassed easily, but that's also because they're not trying to stop anyone from doing that. God Ki is a lot more than just "Ki that can't be sensed", and Battle of the Gods goes a long way proving that, but I really don't feel like this point matters all that much in the grander scheme of things.

To mention the 2 ideas, I prefer the first, but neither accomplish exactly what I'm thinking. I don't think God Ki should be locked behind higher levels because that's not really how it works. It's more about where you train and who you train with than how strong you are. Merus isn't exactly what I want to reference, but he is "technically" a low level character with vast amounts of God Ki, and we can easily see where he stands. This is mostly because of him being an Angel, but the logic still follows on a surface DND level.

Yes, while you could absolutely use the Epic Boons to gain access to God Ki, that still treats God Ki as a form instead of its own system. It does accomplish something close to what I want for my players though, so ultimately, that's what I'll end up using. Thank you for mentioning this.

While the Super Mortal God ritual is something left to the DM like most other features, as you mention, it's tied into already being the required level to unlock Super Mortal God, which is another thing I felt conflicts with the canon. I think using that Epic Boon and tying it in as a "super mortal god" ritual works quite well though, so I won't harp on this when I think you've already solved it quite well.

I'm aware that balancing is the intent with those features, but I also feel like it completely trivializes the point of playing as those races. When you play as a Saiyan or Demon, your option is respected because if you choose to invest into your race, you're greatly rewarded for it by being able to use its features with the other powerful features inside of the setting. There are two big issues I want to mention specifically on the Frost Demon part of what you said.

• Frost Demon forms (at least when Frieza is using them) aren't meant to be cheap. We could make this a whole conversation of its own, since the current system for Frost Demons doesn't represent Frieza's way of using his forms at all. After all, with Frieza, his Final Form is his base form, and every form under it is a way for him to contain his massive Ki Leak. I find it strange, especially because Golden Form and Black Form are both very inexpensive when that's the exact opposite of how Frieza describes or uses them. They're incredibly expensive, but they keep him on par with people that own God Ki. Especially when you consider that Golden and Black forms are meant to be on par with Blue and UI/UE, but they're far below them in this setting.
• Investing 50 Levels into your race, only to need to swap entirely off what you've invested to up until that point just to keep up with the other races is... odd. And I don't think I need to spend any more time explaining why that's odd.

Majins are their own unique bag of issues. Sure, they gain access to some features like Regeneration, but that requires that you stay in one form all the time. At some point the amount you're capable of regenerating isn't enough to keep you alive in most fights since you're not hitting back as hard as you could. It would still be beneficial just to swap to another form so your punches don't tickle as much. How much does regenerating really help when you aren't making any progress on killing the enemy? Once you hit the level to access Godly Forms, everyone else gets a MASSIVE boost in power by selecting new Base Forms to benefit from. The most you can do is pick up Grade 5, but that's not gonna close 1/2 of the gap. You'll still have to drop out of your own racial forms and pick up some god forms to not be completely left behind. That just feels odd to me.

God Forms can be used as a push for the narrative, but there is a genuine gap between people who have it and people who don't. If it isn't proved by Krillin's monologue about Goku when he's in Blue, or Cabba's, or anyone else's, it should be in the Goku Black Saga where that gap is really tested. I think if you look at most people with God Ki, you'll see that the main cast can fight on par or above them, but the only people in the main cast that can do that are either Mutants like Frieza, Gohan, and Broly, or people with God Ki like Goku and Vegeta. While not every person with God Ki is incredibly powerful compared to them, they ARE very powerful compared to other people who just do not train. As I've said before, Kibito and Supreme Kai compared to Zamasu even without his immortality is quite a gap. Spooks2222 (talk) 16:23, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Removed this line of text, as Enhanced Charging functions exactly as I had wanted Angry Kamehameha to work. Human Extinction Attack still needs worked on.

Form Statistics

I decided to tally up all of the forms and see how they all compare to each other, and so far, I'm incredibly confused. I've found out that in terms of raw power, it goes Demon Realm Race>>Namekian>>Frost Demon>>>Saiyan>>>>>Majin. I'll toss out all the stats so they can be quickly referenced. When I say a "Race=" I'm saying "Their strongest form's stats are = to-" When I say this for Forms lower on the list, even though I might refer to them as their original name (Potential Unleashed over Beast), I'm still referencing the end result of taking that form.

• Demon Realm Race = Str+40,Dex+18,Con+38 at 12 Ki per turn
• Namekian = Str/Dex/Con +4 (Red Eyed form), Str+36,Dex+24,Con+32 at 6 Ki per turn (Orange Namekian)
• Frost Demon = Str/Dex/Con +30 at 4 Ki per turn
• Saiyan = Str/Dex/Con +22 at 8 Ki per turn
• Majin = Str/Dex/Con +12 at 3 Ki per turn.

Reading all of this again has made me just as confused as when I wrote it. In a past conversation with Paul the Anime DM, he had said that Frost Demons are given weaker forms for a lower Ki Cost (or at least I interpreted it that way). And while that's not canon to Dragon Ball, that's not how it works in the setting either. Frost Demons walk off with the lowest Ki Cost with some of the highest benefits. They're still beat out FAR by Namekians since they can fuse together, but Frost Demons are just wildly stronger than Saiyans and I had never taken notice. And this is odd, because Frost Demons should STILL be stronger. Frieza Black is meant to be an Ultra Ego/Ultra Instinct competitor, but it doesn't stack up to those forms even remotely. So, let's throw out some more weird statistics.

• Potential Unleashed = Str/Dex/Con +38 at 4 Ki per turn
• Ultra Instinct = Dex+64,Con+26 at 8 Ki per turn
• Ultra Ego = Str+76,Con+12 at 10 Ki per turn
• Enlightened State = +14 Wis at 2 Ki per turn
• Speedster = Dex+64,Con+29 at 6 Ki per turn

These just don't make any sense. Ultra Instinct ends up weaker than Speedster, but Speedster still has a lower Ki Cost. At first I figured "Well it's because Ultra Instinct gives you techniques" but Speedster gives you the same and more techniques. I also don't get why Ultra Ego is stronger than Ultra Instinct and more costly, when the two forms should essentially be 1 to 1, just mirrored. I have 0 issues with Enlightened State. It makes up for its statistic weaknesses with good abilities... sorta. Still a very risky form to use when you fall behind everyone else so largely.

So there are a lot of issues I have with this.

• Majins, objectively the worst pick. That regen will not save you late game. It's cute for the first few fights, but once it's time to get Godly transformations, you're smoked. You're smoked way before that because Potential Unleashed (normal PE, I'm not referring to Final Beast) is the same buff, except it's all in one form instead of spread across 3, and it can actually grow.
• Frost Demons are beyond inaccurate. I won't write out too much of a paragraph explaining how we could give them a base form which is very powerful but has massive Ki Drain, so you need to use a combo of weaker forms like Assault Form, Muscular Form, and Minimal Form to remove that Ki Drain. On top of that the Black Form and the Golden Form both don't hit the levels they're supposed to.
• Saiyans I don't have much to say about. Their transformations are weak, sure, but once you smack God Form on there they start to keep up with everyone else. It is weird that SSJ4 Limit Breaker is that weak when it's supposed to be comparable to Super Saiyan Blue. Don't know how to feel about that.
• The Demon Realm Race is really strong. I don't really care that it is. It's accurate, and it's not cheap to use.
• Namekians have more potential than Majins, which I find absolutely hilarious.

All around so many things need changed. I think I might rework Frost Demons if nobody else steps in and throws out any ideas, because they've gone far off the course they should be on. Majins might actually be something I tackle first since they're embarrassingly weak even when you factor in Absorption, because Namekians can do the exact same thing as them with a much higher limit and with much less drain debatably.

Before diving in, I want to explain that I've been editing less frequently and even avoiding the Wiki due to personal issues. Editing isn't the least stressful part of the hobby, so I took a break in order to come back with a clear mind. With the holiday break coming up, I plan to be more active again, if for a small while.

First, I need to clarify that you're misinterpreting the transformations. The difference lies in benefits vs. effects in PCR settings (primarily forms in this one). Effects include everything the previous form has, including ki cost, while benefits only involve stat increases or gains such as shedding light. For example, Final Beast (Beast Form) has a ki cost of 4 but also includes the effects (not benefits) of Ultra Divine Potential Unleashed (ki cost 3) and Potential Unleashed (ki cost 5). This makes Final Beast’s ki maintenance 12.

Regarding Frost Demons, I strongly disagree with calling them "beyond inaccurate." And I actually think they are of the least issues currently. My analysis of weaker forms focuses on incremental increases leading up to early to mid-epic levels, like their +2 per form compared to Saiyans' +4. Tallying all forms end-to-end is irrelevant here. As for canon accuracy, the ultimate form aligns well with the balance of being draining but sustainable when mastered. I initially thought the true form added all effects, with a ki maintenance of 2, reflecting its draining nature in comparison to super saiyan, but I see now that was an oversight, which I will fix.

On Speedster forms, I'm glad you brought this up. I've long had an issue with the excessive speed they allow. While it's fitting for a "speedster form," stacking speed bonuses on top of their dexterity increases creates inflated stats without purpose. I haven't addressed this completely yet due to the lack of motivation mentioned earlier.

I won't address Majins much because I believe they’re fine as is. Adding more forms and wisdom works well. If you want to enhance their racial power at godly tiers, creating a Majin-exclusive form for that level would make sense given their source material. Happy holidays. --P@uL (talk) 09:11, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Not any issues with taking a break from stuff. I won't fault anyone for taking time off from a hobby. There's still so much that was done wrong as of recent. Putting the Wiki's rules aside, there was no part of what happened recently that wasn't embarrassing to watch. If everything Midalos said was true, then he reached out to you and several other contributors on this wiki, took the discussion off site, and then tried to have everyone agree that my work was bad so he could justify a personal attack rather than mentioning all this feedback to me so I could improve my work. I'm beyond embarrassed that an event like that happened in general, but my name being associated with it doesn't help any. As I've said in the past and I'll restate here, if there are issues with my content, then there's a discussion tab. I doubt it was your idea because I've never had issues with your contributions before, and all of your edits have been genuinely helpful. I just think you might have accidentally enabled somebody. Just be conscious of that next time.

I had never figured transformations took the Ki Cost as additive. That would mean Super Saiyan 4 has a ki drain of 10 per turn when it's supposed to be less costly than Super Saiyan 3. That also means that Limit Breaker has a Ki Cost of 18 is more expensive to use than Super Saiyan Blue, which has a cost of 9. On top of that, if you're not playing with variant rules then you couldn't really maintain most of these forms without semi-frequent charging, which seems like a big oversight.

I don't think being inaccurate and being the biggest issues are correlated. They work, but they don't work like Frieza's forms do. Beyond that, I don't really tier any issues in this wiki because then I'd have to convince other people to agree on what needs tackled, and that's its own can of worms. I just see issues and handle them when I notice them. My current solution was to create a Mutant Epic Boon, but it would be hard to spin it to fit Uub, Frieza, Gohan, and Broly all in one go. Not concerned enough with it to try to fix it at the moment, because the forms take priority in my mind since I saw them as an issue first. I made a Feat for it back in 2022 or so specifically trying to encapsulate Frieza's version, but it needs some serious work. I'll go and remove it from that page after this.

I'm glad Speedster at least got some discussion. I can't add much onto this part. You encapsulated my thoughts exactly.

I'm unsure if I want to add extra forms to the Majins. I didn't mind the contribution by Jeffzaf. I just don't want to touch new forms for them, as I'd be leaning into non-canon territory, and there's no funny gray-zone for Majins to have something like Super Saiyan 5. They technically have Supervillain anyways, and that fits quite well. Modifying their multipliers just seems like the easier option for the time being. With Daima progressing steadily I'm sure my mind will be changed at some point depending on what Majin-Kuu does. I just want to temporarily buff them while we wait for Kuu to bring higher feats to their race.

I do appreciate you reaching out to discuss features. This is how I'd prefer to handle the wiki with everyone. Happy Holidays to you too. Spooks2222 (talk) 15:20, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Unrelated edit, just saw the other changes that were made. I'm fine with Mortal Extinction Attack working under the new balancing, I just gave people the ability to dodge attacks since even weaker characters like Chaotsu could avoid the blasts entirely. On the Bio-Android change, the reason I made higher intelligence have higher creation time is because you would be adding more features overall. I didn't want to make it possible to create a Bio-Android in a single year, but that was mainly just to justify how powerful they end up being.

It's important to remember that we're all here to improve the page, not to place blame or tarnish anyone's efforts, neither yours nor Midalos's. Midalos's decision came from a desire to avoid causing edit wars, and while I agree it may not have been the best approach, it was made with good intentions, and I personally apologize for how it came off. This is why I stepped away for a time—to cool off and ensure I make sound decisions before contributing again so things like this do not happen. However, dwelling on past issues isn't productive; we should focus on solutions and work together (Especially you and Midalos), as this setting thrived for the past three years on being a collaborative, and calm group working for improvement (a bit of a feat I might say for anime based settings), not conflict. And I wish it remains this way as long as possible.

As I've tried to explain in the previous message. Frost Demon forms stack ki costs as they explicitly include the "effects" of previous forms, while Saiyan forms only carry forward "benefits." Since ki cost is not a benefit, Super Saiyan 2's ki cost remains 2. Pay close attention to wording—"effects" stack costs and everything included in the previous form, but "benefits" do not.

I may not fully understand how the Frost Demon forms differ from Frieza's, as I see all effects and ki costs in place. Could you elaborate to clarify?

And regarding the Bio Android edit, I was simply reviewing the page and found that part odd, so I decided to adjust it. However, I realize my understanding might be incomplete without trying it out, which I might do in my campaign since it seems interesting. Feel free to undo my edit if needed. --P@uL (talk) 16:10, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I deeply apologize if my actions came across as rude. I was stressed out by my personal problems and work (which, I must admit, has made me want to jump off a bridge more times than It should), so I ended up going straight to more extreme actions.

I admit that I really want to see what you can do. I was just in a bad moment, ended up being reckless (and disrespectful ;-;), and caused this slight, unnecessary "tension" to arise.

Once again, I sincerely apologize and only wish for us both to contribute to the Setting we both love :D.

Also, regarding the part about Freeza and other characters seen as mutants, they’re basically characters who didn’t go for the Standard Array and opted to roll for stats instead. A tip for creating such character sheets is to roll 2d6 + 5 (which gives an average of 12, this is a small house rule i use with my players, so it helps to keep making sheets simple) for each stat. Characters made with this roll method tend to end up much stronger than the others.

That’s exactly how I see Freeza, in my opinion. He’s someone who chose to roll for stats and ended up with VERY lucky rolls.

--Midalos (talk) 16:39, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I wrote this before Midalos response, still going to add it as it was and then leave an addendum under the first line of text responding to Midalos' bit.

If the desire was to avoid causing edit wars then I'd already suggested talking it out in the discussions when it happened in the Neo Machine Mutant page. You don't just accidentally "gather several people" in a slight lapse of judgement. That takes time, effort, and a LOT of intent. We can say that it was done with "good intent", but I as I said back then, nobody can improve their content if we just wipe it. It's also very common knowledge to both of you that I add new content around the exact same minute that I edit the discussion page with an explanation. So while it's not productive to bring it back up in the setting sense, I wasn't going to just forget that it happened. Nobody has talked about it since. If we just let people act like that and pretend nothing happened, well I can't imagine anything less productive.

Said addendum. Apologizing for "coming across" a certain way, and blaming it on outside sources, and then downplaying it by calling it "slight" looks like a massive dodging of accountability. It didn't "come across" as rude, it's just factually rude to seek out a group of people to try and unify them for a personal attack against a member of the wiki. Especially because it effected another member of the wiki who wasn't even involved with my work.

I missed your intentions with the Frost Demons message then. I see what you mean then. The thing that makes Frieza's forms different is that his Final Form is his Base Form. When we meet him in Minimal Form, that's him using a Ki-Suppression esque form to lock away his Base Form's power, because if he didn't, it would begin to leak Ki rapidly. Forms like Assault Form, Muscular Form, and whatever else aren't power ups because they give him power he didn't have before, it's him unleashing more of his Base/Final Form's power. That's what I mean when I say they're different. Depending on which material you look at (Xenoverse especially), this changes to be a Frieza exclusive feature, with the other members of his races having their forms function essentially the same as they do in this Wiki. The only other thing that's odd from there is Frieza Black being so much weaker than Ultra Instinct and Ego. But, that's all there is that's off.

If it was following Frieza and Cooler's canon forms, then Frost Demon players would start essentially in a form. They'd be having their Ki Drained by much more whenever they do anything that requires Ki. However, entering forms below Base aka Final Form would reduce this Ki Drain, with Minimal Form having 0 extra Ki Drain, but also massively nerfing your stats. Final Form isn't a technique learnt, it's inherent with every member of the race. Frieza just has to lock away his base form to minimize the horrible drain from it. It would just be far too costly for anyone to enter Base/Final Form, as they can't contain that leak yet. Midalos' interpretation somewhat covers it, but it's not what I'm referencing.

I do appreciate feedback on the Bio-Android page. I dislike the necessary evil of having DMs need to balance their players, but it's very hard to encapsulate all the crazy things you can do with a Bio-Android. The one thing I'd ask you to keep an eye out for (as I've had this issue with my own players) is that they get very few techniques due to having to spend so much on their stats and skills. I'd like to find a way to circumvent skills costing so much, as I feel it pushes players away from investing into them. That, and they become incredibly easy to kill inside of their Insect and Imperfect forms. Farmer with a Shotgun can actually beat an insect bio-android due to how low their health is. That's something else that I really need to find a way to regulate. Spooks2222 (talk) 17:47, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Majin Update: Majins now have a new limit after changes made by Jeffzaf. All their transformations added together end off with a Str/Dex+16, and a Con+22 rather than an all around +12. They also have even better regeneration than they did before due to the feature he added with their new form. While it does close the gap between the average Majin and Saiyan, they still end up on the weaker end. There's one change I'd like to make, even if it isn't a popular decision. I want to give Majins a buff to Wisdom with their forms. It gives them that slight bit of uniqueness, since at the moment they're essentially just Saiyans. Same Ki Cost and everything. While their transformations are still LEAGUES below the others, with potentially a maximum of +16 or +14 to Wisdom, they would have enough regeneration built into their class that they won't be pathetic side characters when put next to God characters. Because of that, I'd like to up the Ki Cost on some of their forms by a slight bit. So while they get extra Ki, they also need to spend extra to maintain their forms.

About the Change in the Saviour From Heaven Transformation to deal MaxHP, is that a Saiyan at lv15 would in take 2d4s in damage per turn (avg: 5) and the Saiyan would also have a Unarmed Strike die of 1d12 (avg: 6), so in average and using the healing technique the Saiyan can be in the Saviour state as long he can maintain ki to keep healing himself and lv14 you gain ki charge... so... yeah! you could be in the Saviour State as long you desire. And i believe that was not the ideia behind it, so i changed it to be more in point (i think it was the point) like Kaioken is, where you can use it, but it will take a huge price in your HP. But that's my vision to it... all and all, the transformation is really good!, even more that Saiyans don't gain anything Racial Exclusive before Tier Super

Big Hugs Brodas and Happy Holidays!! ♪(´▽｀) --Midalos (talk) 17:27, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I like thee change. The goal was to make it much harder for them to maintain. I threw in short rests as an option. That way if a player has lost too much, instead of forcing the party to take a short rest they can spend a few hit die to get back some of that lost maximum. The current version works a lot better. I appreciate the help with it. Spooks2222 (talk) 20:26, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Major Revert Explanation

Thank you for your contributions and the time you’ve dedicated to this setting. But after some time, we’ve realized that some of your ideas and vision don’t align with the ideas and vision Paul and I have for this setting. (Although I liked quite a few things that were done, such as the Tuffle-related content.)

We apologize for not addressing this sooner, as both Paul and I have been preoccupied with personal matters. As such, we are not so active on the setting (for now), so sadly we’ve decided to Revert the edits made.

We recommend creating a variant of the setting, as this would avoid edit wars and we can still help each other when needed.

Also, If you wish to leave the contributions that you have made as they are now, provided they are balanced and align with the philosophy of the setting, that is perfectly fine. Likewise, if you prefer them to be removed, that is also not an issue.

Message written by Midalos after a serious discussion with Paul and others who use the setting. (As Paul himself is far more preoccupied than myself, so i was sadly the one that was in charge to do the edit)

Sorry for the headache, broda.

---

Midalos (talk) 22:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

You haven't given any reason why some of these features don't work, or made any effort to talk them through with either me or the other user that you've removed the content of. I had written out the statistics and an explanation of my changes over 24 hours before you deleted all of it, and asked for anyone else's input on how to properly add the changes that need to be made. Whether or not you agree with how I changed it is your own opinion, but you didn't share that opinion.

It's disingenuous to say you'll help me create my own version of the setting, when you had issues helping me work on this setting unless other people step in and back me up. If you don't want to talk to anyone else or interact with the community around the setting, then I can honestly see that being a better reason for having your own variant. I don't plan on adding enough of a variation to create my own version. I'm padding out the content that the setting is missing from the show and manga. Every time I've done so, I've opened the discussion page and asked for feedback and ideas (although I haven't had people responding recently). In my eyes, that's the proper way to handle this. Again, if you don't like working with other people that's understandable, but other people have created content and asked for feedback or interaction and I've been the only person responding to it, with nobody responding to my own mentions of wanting feedback.

The content that you took issue with had already been discussed here. I had explained my reasoning behind creating it, given statical examples of how these features compare to other features within the setting (Mortal Extinction Attack especially), and asked for feedback. The very same thing follows with my discussion on form statistics. If you want to discuss why those features don't work, or look at the math behind why they were added in comparison to other features, you're more than welcome to do that.

I'm just not going to believe that you had any good intentions waiting long after these creations were added to take issue with them, when I've tried asking for help balancing these same features and been met with dead air. If you had noticed them days ago and thought they needed fixed, then you had days to discuss them with me. I'm fine with you and Paul disagreeing with my ideas. So far it's been everyone else working on the setting interacting with each other and balancing out their work. If you had noticed there were issues, the proper way to handle it wouldn't have been to go to (as you said), "Paul and others who use the setting." Taking it behind closed doors instead of discussing it publicly, when I've been trying to talk about it is not mature by any stretch. That does imply that you've been having issues and rather than talking about them publicly, you've been fostering it with a group privately. Let's do better from now on. The setting is public. Spooks2222 (talk) 01:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC)