Talk:Martial Artist (Dragon Ball Supplement)/Archive 2

Clarified Clarifications

So I was wondering, will the class be having subclasses, or will it completely rely on the technique list?

Also what's the hit point loss in kaioken multiplied by 10 supposed to mean? P@uL (talk) 10:15, 2 June 2021 (MDT)

This class will not be having subclasses, and will more so resemble Pathfinder 2e progression. The issue with kaioken has been resolved, thanks for pointing that out.--Ref3rence (talk) 10:16, 2 June 2021 (MDT)

Got it. P@uL (talk) 10:37, 2 June 2021 (MDT)p

Is the ki cloak at fundamental techniques supposed to be active for just one attack? One turn? Or one minute? Because its duration isn't indicated there. P@uL (talk) 09:54, 3 June 2021 (MDT)

Probably meant to last a minute, although if it is I’d bump the cost up slightly. --SwankyPants (talk) 09:58, 3 June 2021 (MDT)

I made it have a 1 ki point maintenance, as this class seems to avoid round counting, which I also dislike. P@uL (talk) 10:07, 3 June 2021 (MDT)

How’s some more things?

• Blast Ball kinda stinks. Even if positioning is considered, I highly doubt it’s worth two Death Beams or three Flurries of Blows. Ball Crusher helps, but it is also Advanced, and thus you need to wait another 14 levels to use Blast Ball effectively in any regard.
• Hellzone Grenades conjurés literally nothing if you don’t increase the cost. Other than that, the technique is kinda awkward and generally needs a rewrite of some caliber.
• You cannot willingly end Liquifaction.
• What’s the deal with Regeneration forcing you to make an attack against yourself?
• Warding Tune has no range, and can affect literally anyone that has a damage reduction. This doesn’t feel intended.
• Hakai requires a transformation that doesn’t exist.
• Edit: Full Power never ends, and is currently a one time investment for ridiculous bonuses.

Most of these are semantics/wording but I figured I should bring them up. --SwankyPants (talk) 11:37, 3 June 2021 (MDT)

• Blast Ball is meant more for setting up traps and easy ki transfer, but yeah, it's cost was too high.
• Technically there was no way to end any Transformation. This has been resolved.
• Regenerate was worded in the way it is to allow for any potential bonuses that would normally apply to your unarmed strikes. The same goes for healing ray. I'm not sure if it's stated anywhere in RAW, but I've never seen a DM not be cool with allowing a player to auto-fail a saving throw/allow an attack to auto-hit.
• As with many features, Warding Tune was cut down from Ki Fighter (5e Class), sometimes a little too much. This has been resolved.
• Changed Destroyer Mode's name half way through making Techniques.
• Not sure how round cost was dropped from FP, my bad.

Hopefully this has resolved most of these issues! As a side note, I'm still trying to find a low-tier, speed-based, canon transformation to add, but my search isn't coming up with anything quite yet.--Ref3rence (talk) 22:53, 3 June 2021 (MDT)

Out of curiosity, how do constitution increases from transformations interact with your ki point maximum? I don’t remember seeing this clarified anywhere, and it might be a serious problem(negative ki points, potentially). --SwankyPants (talk) 07:34, 4 June 2021 (MDT)

I believe the constitution increases would increase your ki points? P@uL (talk) 09:58, 4 June 2021 (MDT)

Well that’s certainly bad.

1. Activate Godslayer Ultimate Form, increasing your ki points by 16.
2. Somehow end your turn with 0 ki points, forcing you to exit the form.
3. Your ki points are reduced by 16, leaving you at -16 ki points.

Am I crazy or is that not how it would work? --SwankyPants (talk) 10:34, 4 June 2021 (MDT)

Well I'd say the lowest your ki points can get is 0 as negative ki points don't make sense. So using the scenario you described when they'd drop out of the form they'll be at 0 ki points in base. Let's just make it that the forms when they increase your ki points. Give you stand alone ki points so players won't be able to just disable and enable the form to gain ki points. P@uL (talk) 10:37, 4 June 2021 (MDT)

Increasing Constitution would not increase your current ki points, since you can only regain hit points when explicitly stated such as in a feature/taking a rest, but your maximum would increase. 5e doesn't really do negative numbers, so 0 would be the lowest it can go. Any points above your maximum would be lost when the form ends.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:44, 4 June 2021 (MDT)

I think the potara earrings are underwhelming. If you look at it, it's no better than the creatures fighting individually as they'll have more rolls and chances to beat whatever they're facing. All it does is combine their things into one, making it like the metomaran fusion with increased stats might fix this problem but then it'll be both too familiar? P@uL (talk) 13:16, 4 June 2021 (MDT)

The current Potara were made for base 5e. Like you said, a more fitting version would be a Metamoran Fusion variant without the Performance check, and with a +12 instead of +8, since in canon it was shown to be equal (technically unquantifiably greater than but I really don’t want to get into power scaling at the moment) to Super Saiyan 3. I will most likely make a variant in a few hours, but if you get to it first I won’t complain.—Ref3rence (talk) 15:47, 4 June 2021 (MDT)

I did the Potara earrings, and added the Power Pole along the way, I think I've covered everything in those two but feel free to check it in case I forgot something or there's something that needs a fix. P@uL (talk) 03:43, 5 June 2021 (MDT)

One more thing: when charging features. Is it like concentrating on spells? As in if you're attacked do you need a concentration check? Or do you only make the concentration check if you take another kind of action? P@uL (talk) 04:57, 5 June 2021 (MDT)

So I and my players have been play testing a fight between two levels 52s and so far timeskip seems to be a big issue. P@uL (talk) 09:57, 5 June 2021 (MDT)

Man, you've already started playtesting this thing? Nice. Either way, I reckon this is related to Ki Charge? If not, what? --SwankyPants (talk) 10:01, 5 June 2021 (MDT)

The fight was going good until super mortal god activated timeskip and the ultimate form arcosian was Knocked out from 700+ hp to 0 by the time the timeskip was over. P@uL (talk) 10:05, 5 June 2021 (MDT)

They can deal tons of damage with the huge amount of unarmed strikes available and use ki surge to push that even further. And those without timeskip can't act about it. And at that level that's very bad, especially with the automatic crits P@uL (talk) 10:10, 5 June 2021 (MDT)

Alright, so Ki Charge isn't the main concern. I thought that if you rolled at least a total of 8 on two charges the technique would pay for itself, but that works to break it too. Here's some ideas.

• No autocrits.
• Limit use of other techniques?
• Higher cost.
• Exhaustion?

Not sure how derivative any of these would be, but it's a start. --SwankyPants (talk) 10:28, 5 June 2021 (MDT)

The crits definitely need to go, restricting the use of techniques for attacking and buffing the cost would work too and I think it should work as a transformation, maybe make it like haste in that a wave of lethargy makes them unable to act for one round or give it concentration or a save etc. Though what are you suggesting about the exhaustion? P@uL (talk) 10:37, 5 June 2021 (MDT)

After exiting it, you would gain a level of Exhaustion. While it's significantly less problematic for people that high up in levels, it's pretty good encouragement to not spam it. Wave of lethargy works too. If we cut back on the usable Techniques while in Time Stop, I'd say up to Basic. Sure, you can still hammer out a few Flurries, but you don't have the other huge benefits. --SwankyPants (talk) 11:24, 5 June 2021 (MDT)

This seems good enough for now, if there are any more problems with that technique then we'll look to do more. Right now at least it's less destructive than what we've play tested, I'll leave editing that in to you as I'm certain I'd make this more wordy than it should be lol. P@uL (talk) 11:39, 5 June 2021 (MDT)

I've got a better idea, how about instead of making it over detailed and restricted, we make it incur the slowed condition with maybe some tweaks and call it a day? P@uL (talk) 02:31, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

So, something else: Arm break is a bit... Too bad with the fair critical hits variant rule. It would make it easy to destroy the body parts with absolute ease. Especially seeing how low the body part hit points are, and it also negates the "Stories favor heroes" thing. What do you think? P@uL (talk) 07:00, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

Yeah, it's pretty concerning. For an example, a 30th level character with a +5 con modifier would have about 303 hitpoints. This would leave each of their head parts with 45, limbs with 75, and torso with 151. Should somebody use Arm Break and roll 6-8, there's a very good chance you're dropping to at least 3/4, maybe 1/2 if they hit hard. Roll 1-2, and roll well enough, you're halfway to completely debilitating them. This is even worse for earlier levels, where you're still in double digits. I'd say Arm Break could deal with just being removed, or just increase the critical range for a hit or something, dropping the cost to 1 because of it. Instead of instant debilitation, it's just a much higher chance of getting messed up. --SwankyPants (talk) 08:11, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

Another idea. Arm Break gives you a free critical hit if you roll above a certain amount of your target's AC, like 10 or so. That way, the critical isn't guaranteed, just much more likely. --SwankyPants (talk) 08:28, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

That seems much more appropriate, with that and the once per turn limit, it won't be happening all the time. Add that in. P@uL (talk) 09:11, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

Hey Ref I'm not sure if it's on purpose but the Masenkos you're giving the NPCs are using Kamehameha mechanics. P@uL (talk) 12:49, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

Ah heck, thanks for catching that. Not quite sure how that happened.--Ref3rence (talk) 19:37, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

Made the Senzu Bean page, I was thinking about making an interesting mechanic for it, so I poured a bucket of creativity into that. Feel free to check it, along with my terrible wording. P@uL (talk) 13:56, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

So I have a question about attack clashes: It says that if the character was charging a technique they can use that instead. But what if that technique is not "charged" aka ready to fire? As Kamehameha and the like require a few rounds to be ready. P@uL (talk) 05:12, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

Small oversight. Fixing that now. --SwankyPants (talk) 06:42, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

I know nothing conflicts with this, but just to be sure. Do transformations increase your stats above the cap? Or do they stay at it and increase no more? P@uL (talk) 10:57, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

The intent is for transformations to do so, but now that you bring it up it should definitely be clarified on page.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:01, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

Quick question, does the “use as part of a ki blast” affect anything else, or does it just make the range a line instead of a single attack? Feels a little awkward.

And, since I’m here, I want to put my two cents out about the “regaining stuff on a short rest”. It seems a little weird, since once you hit 14th level, it becomes completely irrelevant as you can just charge your way into your ki point maximum again. Just a small note, I don’t know how relevant this is. --SwankyPants (talk) 10:52, 17 June 2021 (MDT)

It just changes its range to a line, nothing more, nothing less. While regaining ki points on a short rest is redundant at higher levels, at lower levels it's necessary. You stated yourself that lower levels have a resource problem, and it's better for players to have more options than not.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:08, 17 June 2021 (MDT)

I've been having this question on my mind for a while now, does initiating charging techniques cost you any form of action? Because how I see it now, one can use ki sense, then take an attack action, and then do flurry of blows and start charging a Kamehameha. I just want to be sure if that's how it works. P@uL (talk) 02:32, 20 June 2021 (MDT)

That is true, but it won't necessarily do anything, since you've already used your entire turn, and therefore can't charge on that round.--Ref3rence (talk) 08:33, 20 June 2021 (MDT)

Flight

Flight without level requirement, for 1 minute and not requiring concentration for a single ki point doesn't seem like a problem to anyone else? Anastacio (talk) 15:58, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

All techniques here are DM managed, just because you got the tier doesn't mean you got the technique. Unless the DM allows it.

P@uL (talk) 16:18, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

In a RPG, everything is DM managed. This doesn't mean that the feature shouldn't have a level requirement. Anastacio (talk) 16:30, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

Flight could reasonably be made Basic. Kinda hinders the 1st level thing if you can only take flight and something else(or two fundamentals). --SwankyPants (talk) 16:35, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

Easy flight in basic 5e is a problem because almost nothing is built with the assumption players have flight, making a simple aerial bombing overpowered in combat, and flying to the end of an important area all too easy. The same can't be said for this setting, where practically every creature also has flight, and access is typically limited by knowing a location, needing access to an inner/underground chamber, or much more often being able to take on its inhabitants gradually, rather than all at once. In the few in-universe examples where flight would be a problem, such as Korin's Tower, the series has also introduced a mechanic to restrict flight.--Ref3rence (talk) 19:50, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

Androids

I've been making a bit of research about androids' ability to sense ki, to see if the ki detection restriction here is really right. So far I found a video so I'll let you decide, though it looks to me that it had to be learned that's why they couldn't sense energy at first, but #18 who was around the Z-Fighters, specifically Krillin for a while was shown to be able to at a few occasions later on. The spam filter won't let me link the video here, so it's a YouTube video called "Can androids sense energy" by Geekdom101 I'll also add that they're immune to ki sense as it's weird that's not there. P@uL (talk) 03:28, 11 June 2021 (MDT)

I've also wanted to ask, how would a Bulma build be in your opinion? I've looked at the artificer variant in the class and it's extremely complex and kind of confusing so I wanted to hear any ideas. P@uL (talk) 04:13, 11 June 2021 (MDT)