Talk:Martial Artist (Dragon Ball Supplement)/Archive 3

Full Power

Starting off with using an actual title, because this is getting ridiculous.

There's basically no good reason to use Full Power. Allowing you to spend more ki points by losing more ki points every turn sounds like an oversight. To not have it absolutely completely draining, you need Grade 5 just to remove the "at the end of your turn" cost, and that's not cheap. Plus, that also gives you a -4 to Dex, so that's not fun. Sure, the bonus to damage, hit, and save rolls could be really handy, but when you hit a point where it's affordable to use this, you probably don't need a +6 or so, because your bonuses are already stupid high.

I liked the old version a lot better, with the pool of extra points. It should still absolutely be a Form Transformation, but something that grants you a pool of bonuses instead of ki-spending on ki-spending would be very nice. --SwankyPants (talk) 19:03, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

I should probably suggest a way to fix it.

• Keep the upkeep.
• Change it to this, "When you enter this transformation, choose one ability score. You gain a pool of points equal to half your chosen score. When you make a roll using this score, you may add any amount of points to the roll. The pool is reset to full at the start of your turn".

Too busted? Probably. But it's a start. Could change it to modifier instead of half score. --SwankyPants (talk) 19:08, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

Personally, I still prefer the pool being current ki points, with a good fix being a simple cap (20?) to how big the pool can be that can much more easily be balanced with its ki cost, which is admittedly a bit high. I do take one tiny issue with your complaint however. As stated in Grade 4 "you may choose to ignore any effects of the transformation of your choice". While there are some exceptions, this was intended to primarily allow one to avoid the effects of Grade 3, as Grades are not listed as their own transformations, and are instead additional elements of the transformation you took it for. While I was writing it up, this was clarified by having a +4 Dex increase, but I was worried the rules would allow for overlap resulting in a +4, rather than total +0.--Ref3rence (talk) 19:37, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

20 sounds like a good cap, but maybe there should be a limit on how much you can add to certain things, like hit rolls, for the sake of bounded accuracy. Not sure how you’d do it without being needlessly wordy, but maybe. Also, that clears up some issues I had with Grade 3, much appreciated. --SwankyPants (talk) 19:44, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

Off the top of my head, maybe you can only spend a number of points to any individual roll equal to the roll's respective modifier? Maybe your highest modifier? Maybe until raw roll + points = 20?--Ref3rence (talk) 20:02, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

Then Full Power is worthless for people in Beyond Godly transformations, hitting those 20+ modifiers with no other assistance. For hit rolls and saving throws, I’d just cap it at 5. Fair enough bonus, but still allowing you to spend loads on those big hits. --SwankyPants (talk) 20:48, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

My bad, by raw roll I meant just the die, so a good roll can't have all that much added to it, but a bad roll can be amped a ton, all while keeping it within bounds the player could already reach, just a lot more reliably.--Ref3rence (talk) 20:58, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

That's not a bad idea, I guess. Keeps your hits consistent. Although, I personally take some issue with it. When I see the name Full Power, I think big hits, big damage, and all that jazz, not less swingy chances to hit. Also, that fixed 20 would mess with damage a lot(the big thing you would probably use this for). Then again, I know literally nothing about Dragon Ball so my idea of the transformation could be way off. --SwankyPants (talk) 21:57, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

And that's entirely fair. In canon, Full Power, which in this case if meant to represent more of a Full Power Super Saiyan 4 or Super Saiyan 3 Full Power rather than 100% Full Power or Max Power for wiki reference (can you tell DB has a little bit of a naming problem?), is more so about being able to operate closer to your full capacity when ki isn't a problem rather than actually amping one's power by an external multiplier (it's a whole thing). I think it would be reasonable to have to =<20 rule only apply to d20 rolls, with damage being removed from this limit.--Ref3rence (talk) 22:15, 6 June 2021 (MDT)

So my opinion about this is, I do agree that the ki point spending is kind of bad, but I mainly just had a problem with being able to add +30 and the like to rolls lol, so I thought that making it ki points would make the character more conservative with how big of a bonus they add, but since you're adding a cap now that problem is solved. P@uL (talk) 03:33, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

Karma Absorption

This technique is weird on so many levels.

• There is only one Evil base transformation, and no Good bases.
• What is “Spirit Technique”?
• The damage pool loss is really rapid, losing several turns worth of charging in one round.
• How long do the three free action bonuses last? Or are they like any other transformations bonus?
• Using this thing effectively is like a statistical nightmare. To get a decent bonus, you need to charge it for at least 10 rounds, giving you an average of 40 in the pool. With this, you can actually spend some damage on other things without instantly losing it. For example, you could bump your AC by 3 and still have 4 or so rounds of it. However, reaching this point is an even bigger nightmare, as you need to enter a transformation and be in it for at least 10 rounds. Since the only Evil base inflicts Beserk, you’re gonna have a really hard time charging a RDB since you will be required to run around and smack things. This is also ignoring potential use cases for a transformation like this, namely the other people trying to wack you while charging the RDB

Just a couple of the problems surrounding it. As per usual, I’ll give some solutions.

• The lack of Good/Evil stuff is only fixed by adding more, but that’s far from something I can reasonably do.
• The damage pool loss every turn should only be 4, or maybe even lower. This should be useful even with shorter charge times(this is incredibly relative as a short charge is like 7 rounds).
• Maybe Good/Evil transformations allow you to charge SB/RDB faster? This might be complete nonsense but it could help.

I’m going to leave this to the experts, of course, but it’s never hurt to spitball ideas. --SwankyPants (talk) 10:13, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

• That's on me again, Karma Absorption was made before I had a full idea of where and how adjectives would be applied. For now, the Good and Evil adjectives have been removed, but I may come back to that idea later.
• Originally, techniques were built from the ground up akin to the damage changing techniques, but that became a handful way too quickly, hence Good/Evil/Spirit Technique. This has also been removed.
• As stated under Charging, "For every round you charge a Technique, you may add your Ki attack bonus to its damage", meaning even with a 10 in every ability score, your 10 round stored damage is on average 100. This was done because KAB scales to be about the average damage dealt by an unarmed strike, and most additional dice added by charging would easily be outpaced by just using unarmed strikes. That being said, I have reduced the upkeep some.

Hopefully this has helped.--Ref3rence (talk) 10:40, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

Man, how do I always forget the damage bonus from charging? That certainly helps. By the way, you probably shouldn’t remove the hitpoints regained at the start of your next turn. That’s a bit of a raw deal. --SwankyPants (talk) 10:44, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

Oops! Sorry about that.--Ref3rence (talk) 10:59, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

Ability Scores

Sorry if I'm asking too many things lately but I have nothing better to do so I may as well be productive.

Essentially, the way score caps are handled here, 60 in a stat is nothing more than a pipedream for two very good reasons.

1. You need to be 60th level to get that cap.
2. You have a maximum of 30 extra points you can add to an attribute. Since you can't put a score over 20 at 1st level, the hard cap is 50.

It's kinda pointless to even include it.

Have we considered making the ASIs better at later levels? It could actually allow for some higher scores. --SwankyPants (talk) 13:47, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

How's 1 more point per cap increase? With 2 points equaling 1 feat? P@uL (talk) 15:15, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

Okay, that solves one problem. What about the 60 cap at 60? --SwankyPants (talk) 15:30, 7 June 2021 (MDT)

So back to this problem, I've calculated how many points a character would have been able to add by level 60 if we do ASIs as I suggested. It's 52 points, so while only one score would be able to reach that cap and it would require extreme focus on that score, it's achievable. If we need to make it less min-max requiring then maybe the stats should get an auto bump at a certain time, that's all I've got right now. And maybe decrease the level requirement to 55 or something. 60 is the peak level. P@uL (talk) 03:57, 8 June 2021 (MDT)

Having it be every 10 levels then 5 is a bit weird. I’d say we could instead drop all the caps down 10 levels, so 30 is unlocked at 20th, 40 at 30th, and 60 at 50th. Might open other issues, especially for creatures since we’ve finally hit 20th level, but it would solve the problem of weird caps. This would give a total of 56 points, by the way. Thoughts? --SwankyPants (talk) 06:35, 8 June 2021 (MDT)

That seems to be the best solution. As by level 20 you'd probably have your main stat maxed out too. P@uL (talk) 06:40, 8 June 2021 (MDT)

I'm all for increasing ASIs by 1 point on each increase, it just makes sense, but isn't what Swank is presenting exactly what's described on this page? Since it's written as "you can't increase an ability score above 20 using this feature before 20th level" (and so on), the moment you reach 20th level you can start working towards 30, the moment you reach 30th you can start working towards 40, and so on. I'd say this is more of a problem with the variant rule page being written poorly. Since we seem to be on the same page, I'm just going to copy the second half of ASI's description to the variant rules page.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:11, 8 June 2021 (MDT)

Yeah, this is definetly my bad. Oops. --SwankyPants (talk) 11:16, 8 June 2021 (MDT)

Subpages

Also, hate to hijack this thread, but I feel like we should start reorganizing the titles and such, like on the Shinobi page. It's getting a little out of hand, in my opinion. --SwankyPants (talk) 10:44, 15 November 2021 (MST)

How so? They're formatted in the way that subpages officially should be. They can't exist on their own in any sense, and the way they were before ultimately took up space that should have been used for more general content (i.e. Path of the Beast (5e Subclass)). Sure there are a lot of them, but you run into that problem when you're trying to incorporate every element of a series spanning 348 hours of show on top of various movies and novels. The only thing I could think of is simplifying the base page to not include the "Naruto: " that has driven me crazy since I started editing, but as stated at the top of the Move Page menu, "This can be a drastic and unexpected change for a popular page; please be sure you understand the consequences of this before proceeding."--Ref3rence (talk) 11:01, 15 November 2021 (MST)

could condense titles and such, like converting "some stuff" into an FAQ, Questions, Suggestions, and those sorts. Not moving anything, just making it clearer what goes where. --SwankyPants (talk) 11:23, 15 November 2021 (MST)

I meant we could condense titles and such, like converting "some stuff" into an FAQ, Questions, Suggestions, and those sorts. Not moving anything, just making it clearer what goes where. --SwankyPants (talk) 11:23, 15 November 2021 (MST)

Oh! Sorry, I'm not having a great track record understanding people today. Concise categories would definitely be useful. I'll get started working on that soon!--Ref3rence (talk) 11:29, 15 November 2021 (MST)