Talk:Path of the Owl (5e Subclass)

— This article did not become a featured article. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:52, 20 February 2019 (MST)
Please feel free to re-nominate it once it meets the FA criteria and when all the major issues brought up in this nomination have been dealt with.

Featured Article Nomination

I'm nominating this subclass for the ice bucket challenge featured article. Not necessarily because I believe this page specifically needs it: a fair number of users raised the issue that currently, most featured article nominees are races. Nominating a subclass as a featured article will raise more discussions about this, and the voting process (whether successful or not) will reveal what a subclass needs to qualify as an FA.

Comment: Babosa has made numerous edits to this page since the page got nominated. This means the page no longer fits the FA criteria of being "stable" (read: no major edits for a month). So, uh, would that mean the page should be un-nominated as FA, and re-nominated a month from now? Or should it just stay? Only worry is that if a page doesn't make it as FA, it cant be nominated again for 6 months, and it wouldn't make sense for that to happen here... Varkarrus (talk) 07:08, 9 August 2018 (MDT)

Nearly all of my edits have been about rewording and clarifying it rather than changing it and the Anuran race has gotten an extension due after being continually improved. So I think that this subclass can stay nominated.

Support I really like the idea of a sneaky and flying Barberian. Babosa (talk) 19:55, 9 August 2018 (MDT)

Oppose The peculiar option to gain benefits from this subclass without ever taking a level in it. What if the character has a change of heart and the player ends up not going level 3 barbarian for path of the owl? or chooses a different path. They got "benefits" without ever taking a level for the subclass. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:14, 30 October 2018 (MDT)

The benefits are very mild, but each are very important to the core concept of the class. I may have worded it poorly, but while you gain the benefits from the subclass at level 1, it does mean you have to become a PatO barb at level 3. Do you have any suggestions for better wording? Varkarrus (talk) 17:54, 30 October 2018 (MDT)

I mean, I think you would be better off allowing path of owl barbarian swap a skill proficiency at level 3 for stealth if they chose to. I cannot explain the flavor of this but y'all are pretty good with creative writing skills (I mean, a mystic gets to switch they Wisdom saving throw to whatever)

Similar to above, I think the other things could be worked into the subclass vs this fundamentally different approach. I am not sure how to reword it so that a Barbarian has the option to select a subclass for a level they don't get subclass option/choice/features without changing the barbarian class in general. It is this sole reason I am opposed. It just doesn't make sense [to me] for this variant (?) to exist. Side question, how are dex attacks part of the core class by the way? I can get the flight, stealth, and wings but the dex is a struggle. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 19:02, 30 October 2018 (MDT)

It has been bugging me as well but it feels weird giving darkvision and wings as a class feature except at level 1. Changing it so you can swap for stealth at level 3 seems fine. I don't know about the swap to dex. Babosa (talk) 19:24, 30 October 2018 (MDT)

I feel that the swap to Dexterity was absolutely necessary in order to work like the author intended. If you base the subclass around Stealth and the hide action, I feel like players shouldn't have to choose between the effectiveness of these subclass features and their attack power through Strength. Keeping the focus to just two ability scores instead of three makes the subclass easier to manage. EpicBoss99 (talk) 22:54, 30 October 2018 (MDT)

That makes sense, being MAD is not good, it should be noted then that they can get the rage damage and sneak attack, which fits with the concept nicely. Babosa (talk) 02:06, 31 October 2018 (MDT)

Being MAD is not good; but being able to do "everything" is not good either. What does this subclass give up then in order to have "the god ability score" work for damage now? The barbarian no longer needs strength, and just builds dex and con in order to have high decent damage and high toughness (AC & HP). Multiclass rogue, reckless attack sets up sneak attack uber nicely. Is that area being explored in the playtesting? Specifically, EpicBoss are you multiclassing with rogue? I just think you can choose a background or race that will give the stealth skill, and that swapping dex for str on attacks needs more playtesting or numbers given before this would become a featured article. I don't think there should be an issue with wings/darkvision at level 3. Warlock Devil's Sight can happen non-first level. With the right flavor, these qualities could fit and they do go along with the design. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:47, 31 October 2018 (MDT)

I can definitely multiclass into rogue later in the playtest. Thanks for the idea and your insight! :) EpicBoss99 (talk) 13:53, 31 October 2018 (MDT)

This subclass's later features gives smaller and or more niche benefits compared to the other subclasses. It gives no defensive benefits other than being able to fly away and offensively, Sudden Descent is the only benefit and it deals small damage and can only work when you're undetected plus you need to use finesse weapons which deal less damage. That somewhat compensates for swapping str for dex, I can't say if that is enough or not but playtesting should tell us. I'll have a go at rewording wings of night and moving it to level 3. Babosa (talk) 16:13, 31 October 2018 (MDT)

Oppose After reading through everything here, and comparing it to the other barbarian subclasses I don't think this is FA quality. It is poorly written, goes against the principle idea of character progression, and doesn't blend well with the first party barbarian. I feel this is more a character concept and can be executed with a Path of the Totem Warrior Barbarian. Unless this page sees a major turn around before the deadline I don't plan on changing my stance. —ConcealedLight (talk) 16:13, 31 January 2019 (MST)

Oppose While interesting, the page is not up to the standard of FA. It contains several awkward sentences and mistakes (" then at the start of your turn you can use an action extend the duration to the start of next turn."). Furthermore, the ability "Night Terror" grants the player an ability that overrides the first party mechanics of a rage, those being that a rage will end unless you attack an enemy every turn. It feels as though the player is granted the level 15 ability "Persistent Rage" at level 6. ConcealedWife (talk) 16:21, 31 January 2019 (MST)

Oppose Imagine I'm pointing at CW to indicate our 100% congruence of opinion. Perhaps this would work better as a collection of options for the totem barbarian? — Geodude (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 17:13, 31 January 2019 (MST)

Discussion this feature behaves differently depending on if you already have a Labored Flight feature or a flying speed - should the bolded word be trait? Also, I get that you can fly while raging but is the information below for when they aren't raging?

I think a little something more for level 6 would help it. Bonus action to hide is good and rogues have it level 2. I don't see any harm in allowing a feather fall effect to protect the fellers too.

I think abduction should have clarity that the thing it picks up is the same size or smaller.

"and begin raging if you were not already raging. You must be raging or have at least one use of the rage feature remaining in order to use this feature. " is this correct?

overall neat stuff ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:14, 30 October 2018 (MDT)

Labored flight can come from both races and classes so what is appropriate to call it? And yes it is, should it be clearer.

It also prevents rage from ending early when your sneaking on someone, but you gain that at level 15 anyway with persistent rage so maybe a feature to glide silently which would protect them from falling and fit in with being an owl.

Giving a weight limit for flying would cover that and more, maybe half your carrying capacity?

It seems correct to me, is there something odd about it?

Babosa (talk) 19:24, 30 October 2018 (MDT)

What's odd is the end where it says you must be raging (or have a rage use) but the feature says you start raging etc etc etc. I understand it now. May look at wording that better if it can be.

Using a weight limit vs size categories I think is clunky. It allows the DM/player more wiggle room cause the player can ask if they can up the thing/creature and the DM can wing it. But maybe a player wants to know for sure if they can or now and creature size would allow that. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:47, 31 October 2018 (MDT)

I have an idea how to clarify it, I'll just make the change and revert it if it's not better.

That is a good point, I didn't think of that. Babosa (talk) 16:13, 31 October 2018 (MDT)

This nomination is approaching 6 months in a couple days. If anyone has any comments, supports, opposes, or discussion please share them soon. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:35, 31 January 2019 (MST)

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Do you mind if I change the wording of Laboured flight to

At level 3, you can use your wings to fly to a limited extent. This trait behaves differently depending on if you already have a Labored Flight feature or a Flying Speed. You must not be wearing medium or heavy armour in order to benefit from this feature.

If you have No Flight: When you are not raging, you can use an action to gain a flying speed of 30 feet until the start of your next turn. When raging, you gain a flight speed of 30ft.

If you have a Labored Flight Feature: When using your Labored Flight action, the flight speed you gain is increased by 10 feet. When raging, you gain a flight speed of 30ft if you do not already have a better flight speed.

If you have a Flying Speed: You can use an action to increases your flight speed by 10 feet (or up to 30 feet, whichever is higher) until the start of your next turn.

Also with the abduction ability, it says "you may carry them until you stop flying" is that "you may carry them, until you stop flying" or is that you don't suffer from the half movement speed penalty from moving a grappled creature with you until you take an action or end your turn or something else, it is not perfectly clear. Babosa (talk) 20:51, 6 August 2018 (MDT)

Hm, true that is vague. I guess it's "you don't suffer from the half movement speed penalty." Go ahead with the wording changes! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Varkarrus (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

More things, mostly minor things

You should add a note that they don't get the character creation bonus unless they start at level three or above, or if they can have the bonus add some explanation

It says at character creation you "may select stealth as a skill proficiency" does that mean stealth replaces one of your skill proficiency and if it does is it a background or class one or ether, if not then remove the "may" because who wouldn't want a free skill proficiency.

With Darkvision add the distance at which it works, just to make it look more official, presumably, it is 60ft

I changed the grammar in the line about getting wings, can you check that it still means what you intended

I changed the wording of the laboured flight feature again

With Sudden Descent it says "Targets that knew you were there take no damage" do they also not fall prone

Babosa (talk) 22:20, 7 August 2018 (MDT)

Will do. As for the Sudden Descent, yeah they wouldn't fall prone either. Thanks. Varkarrus (talk) 13:51, 8 August 2018 (MDT)

Do you know when you take the dash action if it would increase the fly speed or any speed other than land

And I noticed that the way I worded the Laboured flight implied that you got the 30ft flying speed when raging and then you could use the laboured flight action to increase it by another 10ft, I think I did this by changing "racial flying speed" to "flying speed". It is not what you had originally meant but I think it is a good change, your thoughts?

Babosa (talk) 21:38, 8 August 2018 (MDT)

I think it's a good change. Especially because then it means the feat can still be used as an action, as its supposed to in later abilities Varkarrus (talk) 07:08, 9 August 2018 (MDT)

With Sudden Descent, it doesn't need to say "If you are undetected" at the beginning because creatures are unaffected by it if they knew you were there.

when it says "Targets that knew you were there take..." does that mean people you have surprised or that you are not hidden from

Babosa (talk) 20:55, 9 August 2018 (MDT)

• Comment. Is this page stable at this point, or will more changes be made? Also, I would recommend dealing with all the issues in the below discussion since they are valid FA points. --Green Dragon (talk) 00:18, 30 October 2018 (MDT)

It is very likely there will be wording changes but unlikely there will be any major changes. Babosa (talk) 22:33, 30 October 2018 (MDT)

Playtesting Huzzah

This page is currently being playtested for balance of its current features, I ask that anyone refrain from changing the pages content until playtesting has completed. If there are edits which a user feels needs immediate address please contact me before making said changes. Thank you for helping us make Dnd Wiki a safe place for all content! -- Cotsu Malcior (talk) 16:46, 30 August 2018 (MDT)

I moved the above comment from the content page to this talk page.

If I may respond, I understand these notices are made with good intentions, but please don't post them on content pages. A message like this implies that (1) no one else is using this content and that (2) one user "owns" the content, both of which are messages I believe we should not send. The second point may not explicitly break Help:Attribution Policy, but it does go against the spirit of the policy.

If anyone remains concerned that this content simply cannot be changed and one can't be hassled to watch their watchlist, one could always bookmark a specific version from the page's history. - Guy 17:16, 30 August 2018 (MDT)

Thank you for your understanding of my intentions and helping me to stay within wiki policy, I did not wish to imply that I own the page so thank you for the clarification. -- Cotsu Malcior (talk) 18:18, 30 August 2018 (MDT)

I dislike raining on anyone's parade, so, thank you for understanding. - Guy 19:17, 30 August 2018 (MDT)

Can I make a bunch of wording changes Babosa (talk) 23:16, 11 September 2018 (MDT)

That depends. What did you have in mind? Sorry about asking, I just gotta know what's goin on since I'm playtesting this. :) EpicBoss99 (talk) 14:10, 12 September 2018 (MDT)

The main one is changing where it says "undetected" to "surprise or are hidden from" because surprise and hide are in the base game and detection isn't really.

Also changing the wording of wings of night so that you still get its benefits if you don't choose this subclass at level 1

And I'm going to simplify predator and labored flight

Babosa (talk) 13:49, 13 September 2018 (MDT)