Talk:Nomad (5e Class)

Honestly, I personally really like the idea of this class, even if it most likely could've worked as just a Rogue archetype, it's got some nice flavor and feel. Might be a bit powerful in some areas, but, there was one main suggestion I had: Choosing from three skills is fine, but having Day Job combined with that is a little bit much. Rogue only has four skill proficiencies since it chooses from an (albeit decently-sized) list, I'd personally recommend maybe making it 2 skills of choice then Day Job, as I still do enjoy the idea of Day Job. But, hey, that's just my two cents. Definitely watching this to see where it goes. --Blackbando (talk) 06:39, 23 January 2017 (MST)

Thanks for the advice! I reduced the number of skills to 2, and kept Day Job as it was. Now I've run into a different problem, however: there are too many options in the class. I wanted the Gypsy to have a lot of little abilities that could be cleverly used, but now I'm not sure if it's too much. Is it? TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 18:08, 25 January 2017 (MST)

I don't think it's too much, personally-though a playtest or two would definitely prove it-but i do have one thing to say: Class options should never be useless. The Moon Rock doesn't do anything, currently, as it states. Considering you only get 3 treasures, nobody would pick this for any reason, aside from maybe some odd roleplaying reason that specifically requires a magic rock that does nothing. I'd say maybe it allows you to cast a cantrip of some school, perhaps? I'm not quite sure on what it should do, it just should do something. --Blackbando (talk) 20:22, 25 January 2017 (MST)

True. To be honest, I was just having fun when I first wrote in the Moon Rock, but it should definitely do something more, if not be taken out. Thanks for the input! --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 15:48, 28 January 2017 (MST)

The name

By including a /, this page is a subpage of the page "Gypsy. --Kydo (talk) 03:41, 26 January 2017 (MST)

Is there actually a page just named "Gypsy", though? I searched and the closest I found was "Gypsy (3.5e Class)", which I'd assume would not link this as a subpage for it, due to the "(3.5e Class)". --Blackbando (talk) 09:55, 26 January 2017 (MST)

Yes there is. It's a disambiguation page. --Kydo (talk) 13:20, 26 January 2017 (MST)

Apologies. I fixed the name to just Gypsy, now. TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 15:45, 28 January 2017 (MST)

PLAYERS HANDBOOK STYLE GYPSY PAGE http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/B1ZGNSz2Bb

And? That was the class before the read through by Mara and me, that is no longer up to date.

Limitations on background

It says that the gypsies are often born into the caravan and such, which sort of limits what kind of background you are allowed to really use.

Is there any way for this to be corrected to allow more options background-wise so it doesn't feel like we're being forced to just use a certain handful of backgrounds?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2607:fb90:5882:b701:32ad:5f7b:312b:5f66 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

I don't see what you mean. All but maybe one or two in the PHB should work for this class.

• Acolyte: You serve as the religious leader of your caravan, performing rites for the God of Travel to protect your caravan.
• Charlatan: Quintessential "untrustworthy gypsy." Palmer of cards, cheat of games of chance and seller of "mystical, all-doing miracle snake oil."
• Criminal: A one-and-done thief, moving along before the locals can catch him.
• Entertainer: Another popular stereotype, entertaining in towns all over as a story-teller, juggler or musician.
• Folk Hero: Basically the protagonist of Fable 2.
• Guild Artisan: This one might be a bit of a stretch, but there's no reason you couldn't be a gypsy.
• Hermit: Maybe you just never interacted with people outside your caravan?
• Noble: Not sure this would work.
• Outlander: A bit harder, since gypsies would generally travel in civilized areas.
• Sage: The all-knowing wise woman (or wise-woman-in-training)/
• Sailor: A fleet instead of caravans. 'nuff said.
• Soldier: A protector of your caravan from bandits? Or an entire gypsy caravan of mercenary warriors.
• Urchin: Again, hard to work.

Without much inspiration, that's what I came up with. Plenty of backgrounds and classes might seem unorthodox together, but that's what makes them fun to play :) --GamerAim (talk) 16:29, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

What I think that user meant, GamerAim, is balance with some of the Homebrew backgrounds, like experiment. I can see in the case of the Experiment that that character did it to themself, but the question is likely over what about those who were experimented on and escaped/let loose on the world.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by AntiCharlatan (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

I get that, though "usually" doesn't mean always. I guess that the issue is over this class being more thematic than most others, but you can always edit it to say elsewise. Personally, I think that you're kind of right and the class should be renamed "Caravaner" or the like, and wannabe gypsies just pick the appropriate background, but I don't feel strongly enough about it to change it against the wishes of others.--GamerAim (talk) 21:19, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Feedback

• What is a "throwing knife". Is it a dagger? And bolas... is it Bolas (5e Equipment)? But that's a martial weapon.
• I can start with an artisan tool kit, but not proficiency with it, is this intended? Same with thieves' tools.
• Oh I see, you've made the tool proficiency a class feature. Why not just move the tool proficiency to class proficiencies?
• Change "month" to so many days or weeks, as different campaigns might have different month lengths.
• If I pick "Antiquarian" at 1st level, I don't know what "Treasures" are yet, so a pointer would be nice.
• If someone steals a Treasure from me and tries to sell it, what are they worth? Are they like trinkets or magic items?
• Tough Sell doesn't give the DM much of a clue what to set the DC at. Can I repeatedly buy huge amounts of items at standard price and immediately sell them for a massive profit?
  • This, and some of the other features, should tie in with downtime activities.
• Dirty fighter. "strike an enemy" -> "hit a creature". This appears to be at-will, so potentially adds a saving throw every round (which is frowned upon). And imparting the stunned condition is very powerful, have you checked to see what it actually does? The weapon sundering doesn't balance this if I can carry 100 spoons or whatever to use as weapons. I'm not sure what "sundering is improbable" means.
• Adding an ability modifier to all saving throws is very powerful. When you max your Wisdom, that's +5 to all saving throws. That's better than advantage on all saving throws, and you wouldn't have that would you? And then, uh, the rest of the party can have it too (apparently no matter where they are since there's no range).
• Appraisal is already a thing anyone can do.
• Please don't substitute a long rest for a short rest. Rests are how a DM paces an adventure and manages resources.
• Grapevine. NPCs with class levels are most commonly used as party members. Look at appendix B of the monster manual. None of these NPCs have class levels. I do not know what the intent of this feature is.
• Where does the banner and mask come from, does it just appear? What happens if I loose them or they are taken from me? Can I just hold the banner for it to work, or strap it to my back, or does it need to be planted in the ground? What does "one step better behavior" mean? Should the mask instead say that you are under the effect of nondetection?
• The Explorer should have "double proficiency modifier instead of your normal proficiency bonus" to those skills. 5e doesn't stack bonuses like this.
• The Scholar. 5e has standard durations to aid narrative flow. 1 minute and 10 minutes are durations. 5 minutes isn't a good duration (it's narratively the same as 10 minutes).
• I'm done for now but I guess I'm not even half way through. Marasmusine (talk) 07:07, 29 June 2017 (MDT)

I am going to attempt part two of balancing and figuring out the class starting from the Caravan Lifestyles

• Pull A Fast One. This is a bit unique to say the least, should be changed to a 1 minute duration starting from your first Charisma check against a single target.
• Speed of Hand, Speed of Mind. Seems a bit powerful, consider removing you can not be surprised while you are conscious.
• False Relics. You can make magic appear on an item with no magic? How exactly does this work? Change name to Finely Crafted, and the feature should be changed to be akin to Tough Sell but different with when you craft a non-magical item, make a DC 15 tinkering check after you finish a non-magical item. Upon failing, you tarnish the item making it worth 25% less. If you succeed, the item appears to be worth (double DC you rolled -20)% more than what it is really worth. You may not use Finely Crafted on an item more than once.
• Pied Piper. Change previously made item part to be 4 hours, and change this feature to from False Relics to Finely Crafted
• Foreboding Dreams. Current version should be changed to a scrying instead with no material componets
• Alarming Resourcefulness. Should change from feat to Hidden Traditions

Hidden Traditions

• Anchor Down. What is the point of this tradition? Getting a lot of gold by traveling to different cities? Why is there no roll involved? Could be changed for you to pick one hometown that you live in and in that town, you have advantage on Persuasion checks to find information.
• Cat's Eyes. Change to regular Darkvision with 60ft range or upgrade your Darkvison to Superior Darkvison if you have Darkvision already
• Hound's Nose. Can't you do this with Survival checks already, should be removed
• Fleetfooted. May need reducing bonus move speed to 5ft
• Helpful. Useless sometimes and broken other times (less useful in encounters, but very useful on skill checks outside encounters), unsure how to balance tradition
• Learned. Change to 3 separate traditions or remove Nature (Botanical Studies, Historical Studies, Creation Studies)

Treasures

• Ether Flute. Change to 0 movespeed? Also needs a specific DC saving throw
• Goblin Jaw. So situational, maybe be able to cast speak with dead with no material componets when pressed into place of a dead humanoid with it regaining its use at sunrise?
• Money Belt. Should be a limit of 10 gold per day transformed.

That is a lot of work that needs to be done, I will begin to balance the class within the next several days if I don't get caught up working on another page. If I have not made any changes in several days, use both these reviews as a basis for balancing the class.--Blobby383b (talk) 00:54, 7 July 2017 (MDT)

Oh my goodness. Hi, I'm the original author. I've recently returned to this site and when I could no longer find my class under its original name, I thought it had been deleted for some reason, and I must not have been proficient or thorough enough to find it. I can not tell you how thrilling it was to see all of you guys come and fix this up! I can not thank you enough. Seriously, words can't express how happy I am that Blobby383b made this a featured article. I've been grinning nonstop. I really really like the changes that have been made! --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 17:33, 12 November 2018 (MST)

Featured Article Nomination

— This article became a featured article! --Green Dragon (talk) 00:24, 27 November 2017 (MST)

I find that this class has the chance to be a featured article. Through its lifespan, it has improved to an interesting and good state. With a few improvements this would become a featured article. --Green Dragon (talk) 10:12, 6 November 2017 (MST)

Comment. This page is missing adequate links to the SRD. --Green Dragon (talk) 10:12, 6 November 2017 (MST)

Besides the missing links to SRD, what other improvements to you or others believe can be made to the class?--Blobby383b (talk) 15:32, 6 November 2017 (MST)

I have some questions now.

• Why is the nomad proficient with any three skills? I would either change this to any two skills, or choose them from a list.
• How does the antiquarian tradition work? Why can a player choose to change their traditions once they gain a level? I cannot totally understand why the traditions can only be used separately, requiring a rest in between. At level 20 this almost seems like a disadvantage. Maybe allow a player to use a number of traditions equal to their Wis mod?
• How often can a player choose their day job? What does this mean by 5th level?
• Should the treasures have weights? What does the amulet of silence do? Goblin jaw could be better if, by placing it in an corpse, the player gains a spell slot of speak with dead, max Wis mod. Juggler's batons could grant a Wis bonus to Performance checks (same idea for Map of the Consciousness). What mechanics work with Moon Rock?
• Simply having The Crier, which effects lasts for 1 hour, seems not well thought through. Same with The Scholar since it allows any spells, and they are all at-will. Maybe grant a number of uses equal to the player's Wis modifier?

Why not make spells grant an amount of slots equal to the player's Wis modifier, the amount of traditions each long rest be based off Wis, and then make all the current Wis Cha choice options use Cha? --Green Dragon (talk) 00:26, 7 November 2017 (MST)

• Fixed the traditions and converted antiquarian into Book of Knowledge.
• Fixed the wording on day job so it is clearer.
• The treasures should probably have weights. The amulet of silence can be used in a number of unique ways. It can be put on your boots to silence your footsteps if you are very careful, it can be put on a front line character who can grapple a spellcaster, it can be used to silence opening doors or locks, among various other uses. What skill would Map of the Consciousness even boost, maybe History? Changed the wording on moon rock and goblin jaw as well.
• Fixed Crier and Scholar, increased crier's range and reduced duration to 1 minute.
• What does "Why not make spells grant an amount of slots equal to the player's Wis modifier" mean? Are you talking about The Occultist archetype's spellcasting or something else?--Blobby383b (talk) 18:44, 7 November 2017 (MST)

Sorry, the spells are from the table. Don't worry about that, the spells work.

I think it would be good to grant the traditions more concrete mechanics, when they are lacking. Leaving the gray DM area always makes sense. Almost all of the traditions are fine now, however.

The formatting on this page has extra underlines and lines throughout. I would give this a look at. --Green Dragon (talk) 00:53, 8 November 2017 (MST)

Since some hidden traditions give you bonuses or proficiencies and some have an active effect, so I believe the wording about hidden tradition uses can be removed. If a hidden tradition has a use, how it regains that use should be descripted in the hidden tradition itself. --Blobby383b (talk) 01:05, 8 November 2017 (MST)

The weights are still missing, and the formatting is still not totally like in the preload. --Green Dragon (talk) 23:29, 15 November 2017 (MST)

Alongside the weights, it needs to be clear what happens when a treasure leaves the nomad's possession (stolen, death, etc). --Green Dragon (talk) 10:21, 17 November 2017 (MST)

With those last few edits, the class should be done. Please bring up any further questions or concerns remaining so we can change the class for the better.--Blobby383b (talk) 18:22, 17 November 2017 (MST)

Comment. Geodude671 and I looked over this class a bit earlier and both agreed that the hit dice should be a d8. I myself like this class and unlike a lot of classes out there it has a distinct 'look and feel' to it in comparison to other first party classes. After some considering, even the issues I managed to dig out seemed to fade after futher :thinking: so this class has the OK from me. ConcealedLight (talk) 18:15, 15 November 2017 (MST)

Support. Now that my single gripe with this class has been addressed, I see no reason to throw my full support behind the nomination. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎ . . 12:12, 17 November 2017 (MST)

Comment. I do not believe the image added reflects what the nomad class does, as it does not give off a sense of you being a medieval traveler. As such, I would like to nominate a picture that I think better reflects the nomad in this. Also, since a scalable image is needed, is there another image that works better?--Blobby383b (talk) 10:47, 22 November 2017 (MST)

On scalable images that would be allowed under the featured article criteria, I found two images that would be allowed, this and this by Charles Henry Granger. But I have no qualms with your picture if we decide to use it.--Blobby383b (talk) 11:59, 22 November 2017 (MST)

By all means, feel free to change the image as you see fit. We need one that is scalable. --Green Dragon (talk) 09:29, 23 November 2017 (MST)

Support. This class has been a major work of mine that has transformed into something quite unique. I am happy to see the class become a featured article and would like to voice my support for it to become such.--Blobby383b (talk) 11:59, 22 November 2017 (MST)

I would like to categorize this class as a [[Category:Dilettante Tag]][[Category:Rogue Tag]][[Category:5e Class Mashup]]—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arquebus (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Very Underpowered

There's a lot of neat and flavorful ideas here, but, I mean, look at what a nomad can actually do (it's not much).
 Any combat encounter that involves a nomad is going to be significantly harder than it should be because the nomad is incapable of pulling their weight in the party. Making one simple weapon attack and then running away is about as useful as a single familiar, or the second-worst hireling money can buy. Even outside of combat the nomad isn't really doing anything to help the party that much without very specific character-build choices.
 Ranger, bard, and rogue have focus on exploration and interaction (and are in many cases better at it than the nomad anyway) while still at least contributing something meaningful in the boss fight. I mean, jeez, even the Expert sidekick from Tasha's is stronger in combat thanks to features like Helpful and Coordinated Strike, and at least as useful outside of combat just with wider skills and expertise.
 If nomad is such a weaselly fighter, maybe we could add a little bit more that reflects that? (Heck, adding the entire Sneak Attack feature to this class and it's still worse at combat than Rogue.) If straight-up damage isn't an option, then maybe it can more easily trip up (knock prone) or trick other creatures to at least help out the other members of the party who can deal damage? Or at least get some kind of tricky nomad "spells" innately (instead of a subclass), like vicious mockery or whatnot so the point about Cha being the most important ability score makes a little more sense?
 Failing any buffs of the sort, I believe should at least be some kind of warning or Design Disclaimer^TM on this page. It's so relatively rare for content on this wiki to be underpowered that I'm not even sure how that disclaimer should read. - Guy 06:14, 19 March 2022 (MDT)

What do you think about moving Primordial Lullaby to an earlier level, and adding a Homestead Lullaby that works as a recharge for long rests, and making the replenish for these features to be at a new dawn?

I would also consider adding the spellcasting from The Occultist to the main class, and allowing The Occultist to have 3/4 or full spellcasting. --Green Dragon (talk) 13:06, 21 March 2022 (MDT)

I think adding Occultist to the main part of the class could be improvement. I hate to make nomad "another spellcasting class" but it's the most practical means of making the class less of a burden. An alternative would be to massively buff treasures, to the point they can act more like spells (and grow more powerful with nomad level), but that feels like perhaps too big of a change.

I agree Primordial Lullably is one of the better features, but that doesn't seem like nearly enough. The catnap spell provides a similar function but by comparison it's arguably not even worth taking compared to other 3rd-level spells. The fact catnap is such a low spell makes me think Primordial Lullaby could work well at 5th level, especially since nomad lacks a big 5th-level buff whereas most WotC classes get a big buff at that level.

I think something like Homestead Lullaby would give this class a unique and powerful feature that defines it, while still feeling very appropriate to the class's aesthetic. But I also fear something which can provide the benefit of a long rest would be considered too powerful by some, depending on how it works. Personally I think it could work well as a 17th level feature, replacing Scary Adaptable which could be moved to a lower level. - Guy 13:46, 21 March 2022 (MDT)