Talk:Pyromancer (5e Class)

Why are you restricted to only evocation spells? There are several non-evocation spells that deal fire damage, such as heat metal, a transmutation spell, and produce flame, a conjuration spell. Yet, at the same time, spells like cone of cold and ray of frost both get no penalty by virtue of being evocation spells. SirSprinkles (talk) 18:19, 20 November 2016 (MST)

Also, spells should be italicised and shouldn't be capitalised, and should link if they are SRD or homebrew. SirSprinkles (talk) 18:26, 20 November 2016 (MST)

This class has very few (if any) exploration or interaction features. SirSprinkles (talk) 19:00, 20 November 2016 (MST)

Okay, what do you think the spell list should be? How about "Sorceror + anything that deals fire damage or produces a flame"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by B1azingPengu1n (talk • contribs) 19:03, 20 November 2016 (MST). Please sign your posts.

There, I updated which spells you can choose from and which spells get the penalty. Let me know what you think :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by B1azingPengu1n (talk • contribs) 19:19, 20 November 2016 (MST). Please sign your posts.

I love it. One small comment, the path of the phoenix first feature seems really slow to regain hitpoints after about level 5. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.132.227.159 (talk) 14:46, 24 January 2017 (MST). Please sign your posts.

Hello! I have some questions regarding the class feature With Fire and Sword. Flame Blade states that you need to use your action to make a melee spell attack with it. How does that work with dual wielding 2 Flame Blades? Can you use a bonus action to attack with an offhand melee spell attack? Also, the part of the feature that says that you can attack twice when you use the Attack action and that you can replace one or both attacks with a spell needs some clarification I think. Does it mean that you can cast 2 spells per turn (any spell or only spell attack spells)? And how does it work with Flame Blade which is a spell attack and not a regular attack? Can I for example cast 2 Scorching Rays or 2 Fireballs per turn, or attack once with Flame Blade and cast a Fireball, or just attack twice with the Flame Blade? In short, I don't understand what it allows you to do, especially in conjunction with dual wielding Flame Blades. Thank you in advance! --Efi4ltisGr (talk) 14:10, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Recent changes

Okay, so I liked this class a lot (it wasn't the most balanced, but there were ways of easily fixing that) before these recent changes. But with the recent changes, many of the features have increased massively in power or no longer make any sense. I'm not sure if the original creator made these changes or if someone hijacked it, but the quality of the class as a whole suffers from them. I'd like the class to be what it was intended to be (overpowered or not, again I could fix that when using it), but it doesn't seem to be that, right now.--Dorlon (talk) 15:57, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Also, I don't understand the point of saying this class prepares spells. It starts off knowing 2 spells and can prepare a minimum of 2 spells. Each level it gains at most 1 spell and can prepare at least 1 more. So the spells that can be prepared is always at least equal (and in most cases is greater than) the number of spells known.--Dorlon (talk) 16:00, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

This is broken, thr biggest issues for me are these: Burning hands as a cantrip, No more spell materials, a higher spell save and attack bonus than any other class. and for subclasses, you can use a 5th lvl spell at 6th lvl, supreme flames, does that affect meteor storm. there is more I won't get into, point is that this is op and needs to be nerfed.--73.241.247.175 04:47, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Concerns

I just have a minor "complaint" about the changes to the pyro class since I was in the middle of a campaign when the changes took place. The complaint is that when the walking Immolation activates it leaves the player with 5 hot points, now this isn't so bad except if you need to us the walking Immolation to transform into a devil in the agent of the nine hells archtype but as a planar walker you can polymorph into a Efreeti at full health. Also dancing with flames is rather not finished or should be removed altogether as it does nothing but cause headaches and confusion for dms and players trying to make sense of the classes potential.

Can you make a user account and implement these ideas? --Green Dragon (talk) 10:34, 19 July 2017 (MDT)

A Look at The Reworked Class

With the class's features nearly finished, I will be relooking at the class to find any new balance problems/problematic features. Without further ado, lets dive into the class.

• Several Smaller things about the base class: the class's tools proficiency should state "None" and the class needs a spells known column for Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher as currently the class only learns 2 spells. Also, Growing Flame should likely only enhance fire damage dealt from spells as well.
• If you only look at the class and not the subclasses, the reworked class looks to be much better with fewer features and lower overall power(besides the obvious damage boost Growing Flame gives you). The main power of the class seems to have been moved to the subclasses.
• The 20th level feature really needs some other effect or needs to be replaced with something else.
• Spark: Infernal Origins. Although this subclass is somewhat bland, it is close to perfect in terms of power level and execution. Looking back at it, the should be changed is the proficiency with medium armor as the class can't be proficient with heavy/light armor and not proficient with medium armor.
• Spark: Solar Origins. My opinion of this subclass is mixed. The 6th level feature Solar Flare fits, but is not even close to the power level of the other subclasses. The subclass could likely use another feature here. As for the Corona feature, it is really only useful when you are close to enemy creatures, but nothing about this subclass says close range fighter. Perhaps with a good defensive feature at 6th level, this could change.
• Spark: Elemental Origins. This subclass starts great, but the last two subclass features could use some work.

• Fire Absorption feels really unneeded in a class that gains immunity to fire damage, and even though fire damage is common basing what should be a powerful subclass feature around taking a specific damage type is far too strictive. The feature is also really weird in that realistically its power is close to entirely reliant on whether other PC's in your party have aoe fire spells for you to gain temp hp, which isn't really a good design for a powerful subclass feature to have.
• All Consuming Flame. This feature is... questionable to say the least. I am not a fan of the feature as a whole, as both parts of the feature aren't really ok. First off fire bolt becomes a cantrip that deals 45 un-resisted(85 on critical) damage with no downside what so ever. But before that, meteor swarm deals 240 un-resisted damage which is actually absurd. I am also not a fan of taking un-resisted damage to use this feature again as after you use it once it isn't worth it to use it again, if reduced in power it would be too powerful, I am not too much of fan of taking damage for benefits, and you already got a huge damage boost out of it. Overall I would rework the feature to do something different such as so you can always use it and make the effects(the extra damage provided by Growing Flame becomes double your Charisma modifier and fire damage you deal ignores creature's resistance to the damage type dealt and immunity to the damage type dealt becomes resistance), something along the line of gaining charges to boost your spells that deal fire damage, a permanent fire shield, or something else.

• Spark: Phoenix Origins. The concept of a phoenix origin is interesting and the subclass mainly just needs a few fixes and balance changes here and there.

• Tempered. I think I know what (When you roll for fire damage or healing you can roll no lower than your Charisma modifier) means, but I believe the feature could worded better to something along the lines of (when you roll for fire damage or healing, your roll can't total less than your Charisma modifier).
• Midas Touch. I like the idea behind the feature, but having the effect be at will is far too powerful, especially as you start gaining higher level spell slots. The feature likely needs to be more limited, such as making it usable once every short/long rest.
• Phoenix. The only issue I have with this feature is that the damage doesn't have a saving throw which really isn't ok for something that deals this much damage.

Overall, I do have to say that I love the new direction of the class and hope that it will soon have its last few issues ironed out.--Blobby383b (talk) 00:03, 14 June 2018 (MDT)

Thank you for the comprehensive and all around helpful review. I've ironed out quite a few more things which are detailed in the edit summary. Few things I'm unsure about:

• What to make the 20th level feature and what kinda of power level I'm aiming for here.
• The comparative strength of the Solar subclass with the recent buff.
• If the damage of Phoenix is high enough given I was trying to imitate a 9th level spell.
• The opinion of the final two features of the Infernal subclass in terms of power and thematics.

—ConcealedLight (talk) 03:04, 14 June 2018 (MDT)

• The class's 20th level feature should be fairly strong, but the class already deals a fairly good amount of damage, so I would probably lean towards a great utility/defensive feature. Something like (Starting at 20th level, fluff about spreading your powers to protect your allies. As an action, you may create a shield that can affect a number of creatures equal to your cha modifier within 60 feet of you for 1 minute. The targets gain resistance to fire damage and 1dX(6/8) temp hit points at the start of their turn for 1 minute. Short/Long rest recharge)
• The Solar subclass is much better. The only thing that I would adjust is the Solar Flare feature so it can only effect one creature at a time(maybe make it a bonus action to "light up" one creature you damaged until the start of your next turn?) as the current feature is far too good with aoe(and the bonus action use helps somewhat limit the feature so you sometimes have to make a choice to give a friendly PC advantage on their next attack or do something else).
• The Phoenix feature is amazing as it acts as an powerful spell and it can be used as to prevent you from dropping to 0 hp. I do actually feel it still might be a bit too powerful compared to the other subclass's 18th level feature, but I am not 100% sure without testing it.
• As for the Infernal subclass last 2 features, I do believe they fit very well in terms of power level and they fit well in the subclass. I don't really have much to say about them besides that.--Blobby383b (talk) 19:30, 14 June 2018 (MDT)

Whoops, I meant the last two Elemental subclass features. —ConcealedLight (talk) 21:58, 14 June 2018 (MDT)

Things I noticed

With Purity of Flame does it take an action to end a condition.

With The Element of Fire when it says "consecutively deal fire damage to a creature" does that mean to the same creature each round? If it doesn't then I suggest changing the wording to "you build up heat as you continually deal fire damage to creatures, losing all built up heat points if you don't deal fire damage to a creature each round." it sounds neater

With the Extreme Heat option should there be a limit to how long they can maintain it without cost, I can see players having it permanently active and just dealing with being 30ft from there allies and I'm assuming that if they do not use a bonus action to maintain it they don't have the option to manifest it the turn after without cost, does that need to stated or does what is already there imply it enough

With the Meteorite option does that take an action or something else

With Hell Knight and Radiance when they choose to deal necrotic/radiant instead of fire do they still get the bonus damage from growing flame

With Measured Flame saying "you roll to determine the amount of ... healing done" is a bit ambiguous, does it mean that it applies when you are receiving healing and how would it work with healing potions

With Phoenix I slightly change the wording or the knockback effect, is it fine? instead of saying that a disintegrated creature needs true resurrection just say that it is like they were killed by the disintegration spell, it is unlikely to be relevant especially because it looks like Midas Touch can apply to the Phoenix damage (is that ok) and is there a duration to the max HP decrease or does that require a greater restoration.

With Corona rather than it triggering on a hostile creature, which puts the burden on the DM to decide if a creature is hostile or not, have the player decide if it affects them or have both

With Nova I'm assuming that it is supposed to increase your Corona to 60ft

Babosa (talk) 02:18, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

1. Nope.
2. Done.
3. I don't believe so.
4. In the same was a sorcerer doesn't need to expand anything in regards to the action economy to expand their sorcery points or spells slots, heat points don't require them either.
5. Yup, the ordering is: Roll dice, add the modifier, change damage type. I've corrected the wording for growing flame to reflect that a bit.
6. That should be better. Like the rogue's Reliable Talent.
7. Fixed. Didn't notice the wording reduced your hp max as well. Not the intent but ye midas touch can be used with phoenix.
8. Done.
9. Oh ye. Done.

—ConcealedLight (talk) 04:09, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

Back to Meteorite, can it only be used on your turn or can it be a reaction

Back to Measured Flame, what I should have asked is does it apply to mundane fire and healing, for example, if you hit someone with a touch, throw a bomb, healing from Hit Dice or the healer feat

With Purity of Flame, I slightly changed its wording

This is just an idea, with the Optional Rule: Planar Attunement how about adding in a penalty to being in the plane of water

You have done a good job on this class, all of the issues I could find were wording ones and I think that is this is the last of them that I can find.

If you have some spare time could you have a look at my class Medic. (5e Class)

Babosa (talk) 21:29, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

That's all been tweaked now. I'll take a look at the medic in a bit. —ConcealedLight (talk) 23:29, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

Very Minor Change

I noticed that the Spark's Manifestation class feature wasn't on the pyromancer table so all I did was add it to the pyromancer table.--Sirbalin521 (talk) 10:48, 11 November 2018 (MST)

Thanks. —ConcealedLight (talk) 11:34, 11 November 2018 (MST)

RAW vs. RAI

Some things stuck out to me concerning the Infernal Origin's hell knight and infernal surge abilities. Concerning hell knight, is there no way to upgrade my AC with something like +1 or +2 plate without sacrificing the weapon bonuses? If I were to find something like dwarven plate, do I essentially lose access to this entire feature if I decide to wear it? Also concerning the conjured plate armor, there seems to be no limit to how long it remains, so am I correct in assuming that I can activate it once and then forget about it indefinitely? Finally, the question I had about infernal surge had to do with its effect on movement speed, where it says "As part of your movement, you can move an additional distance equal to twice your movement speed". Is this additional distance added onto my base speed, such that I would be able to move 90 ft. towards my target if my base speed was 30? Thanks! —Vobria (talk) 14:07, 21 February 2019 (MST)

I haven't updated this for a while but it is on my list of todo's. Since you're logged in you'll get a notification when I do so. As for your questions, there isn't a way to upgrade your armor besides just upping your Charisma(I remove armor proficiency from the class all together in the update so you wont' need to worry about that). I hadn't thought of the armor/ weapon trade off but yes you would need to be wearing your armor to gain the benefits of using charisma for weapon attacks. The armor is limited to 1 minute with uses equal to your Charisma in the update. You would move 60 feet; if you dashed you would move 120 feet; if you had winged boots and dashed you would fly 120 feet; if you were a human and dashed through the water you would move 60 feet. I believe this was based off the monster orc's aggressive trait. Hope that helps. —ConcealedLight (talk) 14:33, 21 February 2019 (MST)

Sharing Thoughts

I think the class is really good. I am curious why not do sorcerer subclass instead? Almost felt like it could have been done that way. (almost)
Nothing jumps out too weak or strong....except Phoenix (to me). Cantrips are still spells so you could heal via those but having limited use you aren't concerned by it? Tempered flame also sounds like a sorcerer metamagic that wouldn't be done unlimited. And a full hit point PC after death is strong. I was expecting half while reading but saw full! I am curious on the test play.
The caster styles also warrant attention in my opinion. They are unlimited static effects and could pose an issue. Sculptor is uber neat, later no just cast FB on yourself. :shrug:
Minor things, the solar fluff is phoenix fluff copied. I enjoy every image. Grammar looks good too. I think the class has a mix of base options and good flavorful subclasses that each pyromancer could be played differently. Red Leg Leo (talk) 09:22, 16 March 2020 (MDT)

Thanks for looking it over, I corrected the solars text and tightened up the wording on the mason casting style. I've had to change or switch up the casting styles a few times but I believe they are now at a point where they are well balanced given their nature. You'll be happy to know casting fireball on one's self has happened a few times now in-game, it is great when your evil DM likes to blind casters or swarm players with hoards of 1 hit point minions!!! As for the Pheonix feature, my reasoning was that given the classes d6 hit die and the nature of 4th tier it was a reasonable/ flavourful boon. —ConcealedLight (talk) 09:27, 23 March 2020 (MDT)

My Opinion After Playing the Pyromancer

The class's idea is incredible, and has certainly some of my favorite subclasses in the whole wiki. However, after playing the class for about 4 years and following the updates, i've come to the realization that the Pyromancer feels like a Sorcerer that trades the tactical and flexible aspect that comes with Metamagic and Font of Magic for the defensive Growing Flame feature and the comparatively weaker Casting Style, and while the fire resistance/immmunity and cold resistance look good on paper, they're not worth an entire class to get. However, I'm still incredibly grateful for all the work that was put into making this class a reality, and i'd like to do more than just exposing my opinion.
With the permission of the contributors and the admins, I'd like to adapt the subclasses into Sorcerer subclasses, and also adapt the features into feats. Eternal Emperor (talk) 23:26, 16 November 2021 (GMT)

Not exactly something you need permission for, but I am an admin. If you really wanna make more content, nobody owns this stuff. Go nuts, bud. --SwankyPants (talk) 17:40, 16 November 2021 (MST)