Talk:Orc Smash! (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

Comment

Eijigog like writing style, very good. You speak good orc, so Eijigog have laugh. Oh ho ho ho. -- Eiji 21:41, 17 March 2008 (MDT)

Agreed. -- OptimizationFanatic 18:28, 18 March 2008 (MDT)

Word-making good, Dan like also too. Is like smashy-orc wrote page about self. Dan like smashy-orc, he smash good. --Daniel Draco 18:54, 18 March 2008 (MDT)

Grimgor want go on WAAAGH!!! with da smashy orc. Da smashy orc 'ard! --Sam Kay 10:27, 19 March 2008 (MDT)

Issue(s)

Frenzied Berserker requires Destructive Rage and Intimidating Rage to access. Uh oh! Try taking two levels in Fighter at 5th and 6th -- TK-Squared 21:57, 17 March 2008 (MDT)

Indeed. -- OptimizationFanatic 18:21, 18 March 2008 (MDT)

I'd also replace one more level of barb with berserk (Deities and Demigods; +6 battle fury +4 rage +10 frenzy = +20) and ditch Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack and instead take Combat Brute (Complete Warrior), Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer), and Righteous Wrath (Book of Exalted Deeds; or Extra Rage [battle fury] if non-good). Take a look at how those feats interact with supreme power attack here.

Since we're replacing barb levels, let's ditch the last four and take three levels of half-orc paragon and one level of exotic weapon master (Complete Warrior) for the flurry of strikes class feature.

On an unrelated note about the Munchkin-Size Me section, enchanting both ends of a double weapon with the speed special ability is a waste of a +3 enhancement since you're only going to get one extra attack. Actually, it's a somewhat of a waste of two +3 enhancements:

“	if she makes a full attack action, gains a single extra attack each round at her highest bonus. (This latter effect is not cumulative with haste or other effects that grant additional attacks.)	”
—Frenzied Berserker's Frenzy class feature, Complete Warrior, page 34

However, the speed enhancement will stack with flurry of strikes. —Sledged (talk) 10:04, 19 March 2008 (MDT)

They count as seperate weapons, though, so you get one extra attack with each end, don't you? MorkaisChosen 10:16, 19 March 2008 (MDT)

Afraid not. Speed explicitly says This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell. Another speed weapon counts as a similar effect (if not identical). If you look at haste you'll note that you're whole body speeds up, not just you're weapons and it only grants one extra attack, regardless of the number of weapons you're wielding. So if an effect that speeds up your whole body only grants one extra attack, from a balance perspective, an effect that only speeds up the weapons you're wielding can only grant one extra attack. The only benefit of having two speed weapons over one is that you can choose with which weapon to make the extra attack. —Sledged (talk) 11:46, 19 March 2008 (MDT)

Firstly, it just destroyed my post because someone posted before me, accursed thing. But, anyway, onto my second points of the suggestions that I came up with, expanding on those of Sledged and altering them. While the sundering of his ideas are pretty good, I'm pretty sure that's what Combat Brute focuses on, but on a pure damage dealing build, try taking Fighter 2 for levels 5 and 6 and getting the following feats instead of the Spring Attack line: Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack and Battle Jump (From Unapproachable East). Also, instead of normal Barbarian, take the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion, in order to gain pounce instead of Fast Movement (If you're going to be wearing heavier armours, there's no point in having Fast Movement). This way, when you charge leap attack, you get the additional multiplier from leap attacking (for a total of x5) and then you deal double damage on all damage from Battle Jump. You dump your attack penalty into your AC, so your Attack Bonus isn't down in the dumps. --TK-Squared 10:21, 19 March 2008 (MDT)

'While the sundering of his ideas are pretty good, I'm pretty sure that's what Combat Brute focuses on, but on a pure damage dealing build...

Did you follow the link I gave here? You don't think 7 to 1 ratio with a two-handed Power Attack contributes to a pure damage-dealing build???? Sundering is only part of Combat Brute.

You've got one feat more than this build can handle. You got rid of Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack, and the two levels of fighter make room for and Destructive Rage and Intimidating Rage to qualify for frenzied berserker. But you need to make room for one more feat, so Great Cleave will have to go, too.

Also, creating a situation where Leap Attack and Battle Jump could be combined would be tricky. Battle Jump requires you to initiate a charge by jumping down from a height from anywhere between 5 and 30 above you're opponent. You can't simply make a Jump check to jump 11 feet in the air (DC 44; not difficult with the rage bonuses), because charge requires you to move in a straight line, so you have to start your movement above your target. Leap Attack requires 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump. The only way they could possibly work together is to have Up the Walls, and the DM allowing Up the Walls movement being treated as "horizontal" movement. Run down the vertical surface and start your leap 10 feet above your target.

In retrospect, there's a flaw in my proposal; two actually. The first is that Combat Brute requires Improved Sunder, and there's not enough feats to fit it in. The second is this is an orc build, and I suggest half-orc paragon. The former could work with human or strong halfling (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting), but I'd rather get rid of Great Cleave instead. The latter is a minor issue though, since this build would work just as easily with half-orc, however, I'd rather go with TK-Squared's suggestion and keep the barb levels for that pounce ability.

And speaking of feat requirements, this build is missing Endurance which is a requirement for horizon walker. human or strong halfing (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) or get rid of horizon walker. (I don't think the loss of fatigue immunity would be that big of a deal.) —Sledged (talk) 11:46, 19 March 2008 (MDT)

You bring up good points, Sledged, but let me point out the wholesome goodness of Battle Jump and Leap Attack combined. While Leap Attack requires you jump 20ft horizontally and Battle Jump requires between 5 and 30 feet vertically, they both combine to be perfect for each other. As the Jump Skill says under Long Jump, whenever you execute a long jump, you reach a vertical height of a quarter of your horizontal check, which will be 5 feet from a 20ft long jump. This allows you to use Battle Jump and Leap Attack at the same time without having to use an exceptionally large vertical modifier.

"A long jump is a horizontal jump, made across a gap like a chasm or stream. At the midpoint of the jump, you attain a vertical height equal to one-quarter of the horizontal distance. The DC for the jump is equal to the distance jumped (in feet). " -- Jump

As the Battle Jump multiplies all damage, and not just power attack damage, I do believe that's more than a 7:1 on Power Attack damage. Also available to the Orc is Headlong Rush (Found: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a) which allows you to deal double damage, yet again, for a total of x3 damage on all damage. --TK-Squared 12:09, 19 March 2008 (MDT)

You're missing the point. Just because Combat Brute only multiplies the Power Attack damage instead of all the damage doesn't mean it doesn't contribute to a pure damage-dealing build. However, Headlong Rush is by far a better option than either Combat Brute or Battle Jump.

With Battle Jump, you have to attack from 5' above the target, which is about 10 feet against a Medium opponent. So you'd have to jump 40 feet. Second, combining it with Leap Attack still seems questionable on two accounts. Whether or not making a 40-foot horizontal jump with a peak height of 10 feet counts as "dropping from above your opponent," and the fact that you're movement goes up then down. Charge dictates that the movement must be in a straight line. Logically, one could conclude that the straight line stipulation is suspended for Leap Attack otherwise the feat wouldn't work, but the same may or may not true for Battle Jump since you can still fulfill the charge requirements by dropping off a ledge above your opponent. But I can't see any more substantial reason why they wouldn't work in conjunction. I also see little reason to not have Battle Jump, Combat Brute, Headlong Rush, and Leap Attack. So let's throw it all together:

I've done some extensive research on combining Battle Jump with Leap Attack. So far I have found nothing that explicitly states the two cannot be combined, and as far as I know, if it isn't explicitly stated, it isn't explicitly disallowed. All Battle Jump needs to activate is a positive vertical difference of at least 5 feet and no more than 30 feet(the charging character being 'above') and all Leap Attack needs is a horizontal jump of 10ft. Combining those two together, a character needs to make a DC 100 Jump check to activate both against a Medium or smaller sized character. 40 to reach 10 feet in height, 10 to move horizontally, and doubled for jumping without a 20 foot running start. If, somehow, one could add in Leap of the Heavens(PHBII; all jumps count as if they had a 20 foot running start, any jump with a 20ft running start gains a +5 ... bonus(uncertain of the type without actually looking it up)), this brings the DC back down to a more manageable 50. Now, if you use 'Vertical Height = 1/4 Horizontal Distance' for horizontal jumping, then one could say the 10ft horizontal jump decreases the vertical jump DC by 2(10/4=2.5, rounded down to 2) making the new DC a bit more manageable at 48 instead of 50. Add in a 20ft running start, and the Leap of the Heaven's bonus kicks in, helping quite a bit, I would imagine. Oh, and to thwart the 'charges can only be in straight lines' bit, Leap Attack specifically allows Jumps as part of a charge. -Rensik(non-account)

Orc Smash!

barbarian (lion totem alternate class feature)	Destructive Rage
fighter	Power AttackB
fighter	CleaveB, Intimidating Rage
fighter
fighter	Headlong RushB
berserk	Leap Attack
orc paragon??
frenzied berserker
frenzied berserker	Battle Jump
frenzied berserker
frenzied berserker
frenzied berserker	Improved Sunder
frenzied berserker
frenzied berserker
frenzied berserker	Combat Brute
frenzied berserker
frenzied berserker
bear warrior	Righteous Wrath, or Extra Rage (rage) if non-good
warshaper
warshaper

Orc paragon is to get rid of that pesky light sensitivity and for the Strength boost. —Sledged (talk) 14:10, 19 March 2008 (MDT)

Of course, it's only now that I realize that this build is missing Exotic Weapon Proficiency (orc double axe). The initial conceptions of this build has some serious feat requirements issues. —Sledged (talk) 14:13, 19 March 2008 (MDT)

Get rid of the Weapon Focus on the Orc Double Axe and swap it out for something like a Greataxe, because using the Double Axe will require an exotic weapon proficiency, as stated before, and you'll incur Two-Weapon Fighting penalties if you use both heads. Doesn't seem to be all that worth it. That way you can get Improved Sunder and Combat Brute earlier. Also, extra rage isn't totally necessary, because with such a high damage output, the build will take out the enemy as quickly as possible. --TK-Squared 14:39, 19 March 2008 (MDT)

With the Extra Rage, I was thinking of multiple rage stacking uses. Without it there's only one battle fury use per day and only one rage per day. So after one encounter you're only left with 4 frenzies, unless you split them up with two different frenzy uses, then after two encounters you're left with 3 frenzies.

Since the build no longer qualifies for exotic weapons master, I suggest a level of bear warrior (+8 which subsumes the bonus of one of the rages/frenzies/battle furies/tantrums/hissy fits/etc...), and two levels of warshaper (+8 bear +4 morphic body +10 frenzy +6 battle fury = +28). Not sure what to do with that lone level of orc paragon, none of the PrCs after it can be taken any sooner. —Sledged (talk) 15:11, 19 March 2008 (MDT)

The Most Powerful Orc in the World

From earlier: "I also see little reason to not have Battle Jump, Combat Brute, Headlong Rush, and Leap Attack"

Sadly, it seems everyone is still missing the point. This feat combo does in fact give a mightily powerful orc, dealing 3x charge damage and 3x (5x after the first turn) power attack damage. This gives a character who can power attack for up to 300 damage on one attack; good, but not even close to what our orc could be capable of.

To achieve ultimate power, the character should have at least two levels of both fighter and psionic warrior, granting four bonus feats and the use of a few minor psionic powers. The most useful power for such a character is Expansion: it bumps up to one size category larger (with trivial stat bonuses). Now, assume the orc in question, being a burly strong orc, decided to take a -2 penalty by wielding a Large halberd or other vicious stabbing weapon (reach 15-20 feet); at large size, this weapon becomes huge, gaining a reach of 20-30 ft. As the leaping charge takes us at the enemy through the air, anything within a 30-ft radius of the landing point can be hit at some point during the trajectory; we can assume that any bonus cleave attacks can be made later in the trajectory as well, a sort of 5-foot-step created by the fact that we're flying fast. Next, we replace the barbarian's Fast Movement with Shadow Lion Totem (TCC), granting the Pounce ability and thus a full attack at the end of this charge. Assuming a swift weapon, or better yet, haste, that's 5 attacks anywhere within the circle of radius 30.

But it gets better. I said we're going to need a lot of feats: improved bull rush will give us the almighty Shock Trooper, which allows a penalty to AC in place of BAB for power attacks: this is limited only by BAB, so we gain a power attack of 20 on EACH of our attacks. That's right: five attacks of 300 power attack damage, or 1500 damage, with no penalty to hit. Also, each of these 300+ damage attacks cleaves; thus, it becomes relatively easy to clear out the entire 30' circle. The AoOs Heedless Charge gives our enemies suddenly seem less useful when the orc has a 25' reach advantage on them.

Just in case something survives the onslaught, though, we have two options. We can get Improved Trip and then Knock-down, granting free trip attempts on everyone we hit; or our orc can take Rampaging Bull Rush, which after a successful hit gives a free bull rush that doesn't require us to move, granting a bull rush bonus of our power attack (x2 for double handed); with size, charge and battle jump bonuses, we gain +50 in bonuses to this bullrush attempt, for 50 feet average of knockback. If we attacked from 30 feet away, our enemies are now STILL too far (80') away to charge in next turn. Additionally, if the orc has a mixed heritage with some giant blood, he/she can take the Knockback feat, which lets him/her take -4 to the bullrush check in order to knock victims prone at the end of their bullrush, essentially immobilizing them.

Of course, it doesn't stop here. Now the orc must be willing to become a more socially acceptable warrior: that is, a Warblade, from Bo9S. Only 1 level of warblade is needed, as other class levels add 1/2 each to his martial manifester level, giving a nice range of strikes and stances to choose from. Most useful among these are the Leaping Dragon Stance, giving +10 jump and the ability to jump from stationary with no penalty; the Charging Minotaur strike, which makes a charging character immune to AoO (take that, heedless charge!), Wall of Blades, which lets us use attack bonus in place of AC, and Sudden Leap, which allows for a free jump as a swift action.

Now the fun part: Battle Jump is worded such that falling at least 5' on an enemy counts as a charge. Thus, using Sudden Leap to gain a free jump onto an enemy gives a free jump that becomes a free charge that becomes (with pounce) a free full attack, this one against a group of enemies that could be some distance away. If necessary, Charging Minotaur will protect us from the AoO from jumping away. Additionally, by taking TWO move actions and a Sudden Leap, we can make three full-round attacks, about 50 ft away from each other, against everyone in a 30-ft radius. So, there you have it. 15 attacks of 300+ damage, for 4,500+ damage. That's not including extra attacks from cleave.

Weaknesses of this build? Simply that orcs do not like defensive tactics, and indeed this character usually has an AC of 0 to 5. Of course, he can keep melee attackers out of reach and prone; his saves against magic are poor, but not affected by any of this, and Rage helps with will; additionally, a few extra Psionic Warrior levels will give Energy Resistance options. As for ranged attacks, get enough DR from psionic spells/combat stances/psionic powers/barbarian levels, and they won't be able to do any damage to the orc at all. Also, Wall of Blades or perhaps a tactical feat will provide some defenses in a pinch.

Sheer power: 2,700+ pwr atk damage first turn, 4,500+ on subsequent turns; attacks in a 30-foot radius and CLEAVES.

In fact, thanks to cleave, my estimations (and some very simple calculus) show this build can kill an average of of 300 kobolds in one turn. That's right, 300. In 3 minutes of combat, that number would likely be over 9000. —Deltadromeus

Orc Double Axe

Orcs don't get automatic proficiency with orc double axes, nor do they get weapon familiarity with them. —Sledged (talk) 11:40, 18 April 2008 (MDT)

"Orcs may treat orc double axes as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons." - Monster Manual v.3.5 (p.204) —Envoy2500 (talk) 21:45, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

My 3.5 MM says nothing of the sort, nor does the SRD. What printing do you have? Is it the special edition MM? Does anyone else's MM say this? —Sledged (talk) 21:17, 28 April 2008 (MDT)

Mine is v.3.5 and under Orcs as characters it says "Weapon Familiarity: Orcs may treat orc double axes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons." This is similar to Dwarves being able to use dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgoshes or gnomes using gnome hooked hammers. —Envoy2500 (talk) 11:24, 1 May 2008 (CDT)

I'm looking at it right now in the 3.5 monster manual, it does say what Envoy2500 says, page 204. (I'm using 3.5 version) --Sakurasboy 11:34, 9 August 2008 (MDT)

IP Comment

Haste only works on one head of the axe. It's a waste to put it on the other one since they don't stack. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.64.54.180 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.