Talk:Lumberjack (5e Class)

— This article did not become a featured article. — Geodude (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 12:19, 5 January 2019 (MST)
Please feel free to re-nominate it once it meets the FA criteria and when all the major issues brought up in this nomination have been dealt with.

Featured Article Nominee

I believe this class to be an excellent candidate to be a FA, as I think it is fun, unique, and balanced among having all the other prerequisites needed to become an FA. There may still be some minor issues throughout, but nothing that can't be ironed out. As normal, this page needs to be supported, commented, or opposed from within the community, and double checked for confirmation to featured article formatting and content standards by someone who will then let us know how well it meets these criteria.--Blobby383b (talk) 17:40, 7 July 2018 (MDT)

I have failed this nomination after close to five months of no discussion and no consensus formed. It's a couple days early but I don't see consensus suddenly being formed in that period of time. — Geodude (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 12:19, 5 January 2019 (MST)

• Support — Per above, this class has been a major project of mine for some time and I am extremely happy with how it has turned out.--Blobby383b (talk) 17:40, 7 July 2018 (MDT)
• Comment - I've always loved your work and still do. Unfortunately this doesn't grab onto me like some other pages you've worked on. I don't see issues with it- it is well written, has unique features, and reads quite well. Part of me struggles that I think it is background? I really hope this doesn't come off badly though. I think you've done great, I'm just not feeling the FA vibe on this one. <3 BigShotFancyMan (talk) 20:44, 8 July 2018 (MDT)
• Comment - With Enhanced Metabolism wouldn't it be more appropriate to give advantage on Consitution saves/checks rather than Wisdom survival checks because metabolism is related to the body, not your survival knowledge/skills, or you could name it something like Harsh Adaptation and keep the advantage on Wisdom survival checks. Also, do you mean extreme environments instead of extreme weather? regardless I can't find details about extreme weather or environments so I am not sure if Wisdom survival checks are more relevant then Consitution saves/checks so I can't say which is better to have.

With Deeply Rooted it says "whenever you are on solid ground. This feature does not work if your character is not touching the ground" which is unnecessary repetition, its not a big issue but it bugs me

With Unyielding Body, you should mention if you can change the resistance or not. Most features that give you a choice of resistances also allow a player to change the resistance.

With Brace does it give you resistance to the attacks damage type in which case what if there are multiple damage types. and when it says this turn does that mean that creatures turn or until the beginning of your next turn or until their turn.

With Ageless Guardian it says "you are immune to effects that cause instant death" which can be interpreted to mean anything that causes instant death, it should be completely clear due to its ability to become broken, I don't know how it can be worded in a clear and concise way but you could give an example like power word kill.

The class is well made but it doesn't feel like it is enough to be a feature article, It does seem like it should be a Quality Article though. Babosa (talk) 16:28, 6 August 2018 (MDT)

Without improvements this nomination will not succeed. --Green Dragon (talk) 23:24, 8 November 2018 (MST)

Hey guys, very cool class idea. I wonder if the creator envisions this as more of a full melee Fighter class variant, or more of a Ranger subclass?

--El Tres (talk)El Tres

Really, I see this class as an amalgam of several different classes, though I believe the class is most similar to the barbarian with a lot more focus being put on non-combat features. Either way, pcs created as lumberjacks can play off of the theme of being a lumberjack however you want, with you having more of a focus on being a honed fighter who happens to be a lumberjack, a woodsman who is focused on living sustainably, or something else.--Blobby383b (talk) 14:53, 7 February 2021 (MST)

Very cool, Basically a bushcrafter! --El Tres (talk) 20:42, 7 February 2021 (MST)El Tres

Changes To The Class

Looking at the recent edits to the class, it has made a number of changes to the class. I will be going over these edits

• Unarmored Defense. The change to this feature was to make it use Dexterity instead of Wisdom. I am not necessarily against the change to the class's unarmed defense, but because of the change, the wood carver is now even more mad(str, dex, con, wis needed) and has either a lower AC or spell save DC due to them needing wisdom. Overall though, I feel Constitution and Wisdom unarmored defense is more flavorful for the class, as the class doesn't dodge things they just tank them through sheer physicality and force of will.

• Close Quarters Combatant. I don't believe taking away the 5 foot movement speed was needed as the class has no other increases to movement speed and to be effective the lumberjack needs to be up close. Plus, most of the time, a build will choose one of the 3 fighting styles for extra damage, so I believe having a small other buff is needed for this fighting style.

• Endurable. I am somewhat against this feature being changed so it is gained at 2nd level. The change makes the class strictly weaker than say the fighter or barbarian at 1st level and the change to the levels where you gain damage reduction is fairly disruptive now as you do not gain damage reduction when you increase in a tiers of play(5th/11th/17th) or when other classes such as spellcasters/rogues/etc. have increases in power via gaining a spell slot level/increase in sneak attack at odd levels. I will have to think awhile longer on whether this feature should be gained at 1st level, so the class is more comparable to other martials but the levels where you gain increased damage reduction should definitely be changed back.

• Axe Veteran. Martial classes all gain a form of damage increase at 1st or 2nd level and changing Axe Veteran to be 3rd level both goes against this trend and makes the class weaker(when it is not needed, currently the class at 1st/2nd level is quite weak except for just having high hp). Enhanced Metabolism is also almost entirely a fluff feature so having another good feature at 2nd level is not an issue.

• Deeply Rooted. Not allowing grappling at all was probably a bad move, so I really like this change/fix. Really, I have nothing else to say.

• Heavy Axe. I actually really like the change made here of making the damage improvement of this feature be something else. Looking back at it, the class didn't really need extra damage at this point.

Overall, although I do like a number of the changes made, I believe the balance changes(besides the unarmed defense change) made at lower levels makes the class strictly weaker than say a fighter or barbarian at those levels. Because of this, for the most part, I will be reverting several of the unneeded balance made to the class as it does not seem like this was taken into consideration when the features where changes.--Blobby383b (talk) 07:26, 29 April 2021 (MDT)

Fair enough. To be perfectly honest, I was actually going to remove Axe Veteran entirely and make Endurable a +1 per 3 levels, but I knew that anyone who had ever worked on this class previously would simply revert my edit in its entirety without a second thought upon seeing just those changes. I have a special place in my heart for rogues: the "no" place, because their Sneak Attack damage progression is honestly ludicrous, and I hate it, so this opinion of mine maaaay have influenced my decision-making process.

However, I will fight tooth and nail to keep the Unarmored Defense as DEX+CON, even with *one* of the subclasses wanting it because neither fighter nor rogue use their subclass spellcasting ability for anything besides spellcasting, and do not reward giving them a good Intelligence for any reason in the main class. In addition, neither of the other two subclasses nor anything else in the main class desire Wisdom for anything. That's one of the two reasons for my firm belief in DEX+CON instead of CON+WIS, the other being that your reasons for CON+WIS is also what we generally think of with the barbarian, but the barbarian doesn't do CON+WIS. As a slight addition, both the class and subclass already have so many ways of resisting damage/effects (not even including certain spells) without always leaning into the unarmored defense, does every subclass have to function perfectly with the core class? Goodness knows the melee subs for fullcasters don't! XD --IntellectMaster (talk) 11:35, 29 April 2021 (MDT)

What about monks? They don’t get subpar unarmored AC, and actually want both scores to be high for other reasons. Hell, even their spellcasting is based on Wisdom. Let em have Wis+Con. Let the god-stat be replaced for once. --SwankyPants (talk) 11:39, 29 April 2021 (MDT)

Preferably, a lumberjack would have higher Wisdom than Dex as Wis gives better ability checks in things the class is proficient and having a higher Wis seems to be for flavorful. Realistically though, the unarmed AC should probably be Dexterity instead of Wisdom due to precedent set by other unarmored defenses, but I do want it to be Wis+Con.--Blobby383b (talk) 13:06, 29 April 2021 (MDT)

On the topic of ability checks, I would like to point out that the barbarian has more WIS-based profs than the monk (Animal Handling, Perception, and Survival instead of Insight) despite not being a WIS-based in any ways. As for the monk using WIS for its unarmored defense... you seem to be conveniently forgetting that they also use DEX, which is the key component. I don't care so much what the second score used is, I just want DEX to be one of the two. Or three, if you maybe want to do a very weird DEX + 1/2 CON + 1/2 WIS (not suggested). Not to mention A) WIS helps you not get surprised when combat begins, B) Helps you save your allies when the healing magic is unavailable, and C) Prevent yourself from being mind controlled (or paralyzed, confused, afraid, charmed in general, and more), all very good things to invest in without the tank being rewarded for it. (Monks are not tanks, just incredibly annoying dodgy-dodgy stun-lockers that you can't get rid of by any means.) Finally, I wouldn't really consider a stereotypical lumberjack "wise", but this is coming from someone who believes certain sports and competitions to be some of the stupidest things people can do, so you might want to take that last point with a grain of salt. --IntellectMaster (talk) 14:02, 29 April 2021 (MDT)

I know the monk has Dex+Wis, yeah. That's not my point. My point is that they actually want both scores for just about all of their class features. Throwing in dex instead of wis just makes them further MAD. Just because it's a precedent doesn't mean it's good. --SwankyPants (talk) 14:49, 29 April 2021 (MDT)

Because you're so adamant about this, it's time for me to play this card: the lore. Monks in D&D are somewhat mystical, manipulating ki energy in themselves to enhance their own physical capabilities and to disrupt the flow of this energy in their foes, or to just throw underwhelming amounts of fire. The mechanical representation of their ki-manipulation is the consumable resource Ki Points, the DCs of the effects of which are reliant on how in tune they are with the natural energies of the world (a.k.a how wise they are), achieved by long and arduous training for this very purpose. The lumberjack is a big strong guy with an axe best known for being strong and cutting down trees, and that's it. No mystical training to and enhance their physical capabilities through manipulation of life forces. Nothing in the latter bespeaks "wise man who's attunement to the lifeforces of themselves and others enables them avoid harm" when their whole schtick is "strong man who's physical prowess enables them to avoid harm". And before you even think about trying the "but they spend their time in nature" argument, barbarians fit that description just as much and have no inclinations towards wisdom. Honestly, they probably don't even need unarmored defense and could just have something that replaces DEX with CON when determining their AC with or without armor. I mean, seriously, have you seen how many "you can't hurt me" features this class has?! I feel like the resisting damage "through sheer physicality and force of will" is already achieved by the numerous other ways it resists things. Finally, I've done some research on the lumberjacks of old and their culture, stories, and lifestyle, and let me tell you, again, I find nothing indicating "wisdom" as a hallmark for a good lumberjack. They tended to be strong, hardy, strong, have good reflexes, be strong, be hardy, were strong, and they were strong (repeats intended). Whatever skills they had with animals, noticing things, patching wounds, they acquired through their trade. This is called a Proficiency, which the class offers and you are likely to take for the exact reason of being a lumberjack who sees things. But again, I would like to emphasize the monk's lore reason for having WIS as part of its AC is because of their special training in the manipulation of life force energy to enhance their reflexes: nowhere does the lumberjack hint at anything like this in any way. The lore describes the picking-up of learned skills as part of the trade, not a passive know-all for all aspects of nature and somehow gaining a class-wide attunement to nature.

Unrelated to any of that, "Aura of Vitality" is the name of a spell in the PHB so it might be "wise" to change it, and Ageless Guardian lets you never eat, drink, or sleep again and not die (although you would still have 0 speed, disadvantage on everything, and 1/2 hit point maximum via exhaustion) because of it. I know it's a little cliche, but maybe being immune to magical aging might fit better? I know it's a very different effect, but has fewer "weird" fringe cases like that, and is more immediately helpful because I don't think there are as many instant-death effects around that level as there are magical-aging effects. --IntellectMaster (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2021 (MDT)