Talk:Godslayer (5e Class)

Issues With the Class

Overall, i think this class has a well defined roll as a defender, but i have some concerns about the following features:

Adding Scars

I'm not so sure about this feature, and i feel this should be tested against a gauntlet of encounters in each of the four tiers of play. This negates damage against any type of damage, so is basically a permanent resistance and potential immunity against some attacks.

ASI

Why more ASI's at 6th level? This class already gain a feature at this level, the improvement in the Indomitable Will, there's no need for what is basically a filler feature.

Extra Attack

There's no need for an additional extra attack at 14th level. One extra attack at 5th level is the default, and 14th level is not a good level to give a tier level feature. Anastacio (talk) 21:09, 24 September 2020 (MDT)

It seems there is some agreement the class has some overpowered things then from the mimicking of fighter. Nerfing the ASI and extra attack should make it less fighter like and bring the power down. The damage reduction is a central piece to the class and the jury seems hung on it so until tested, it can stay.--Yanied (talk) 20:48, 26 September 2020 (MDT)

Balance

This is very unbalanced this class has barbarian HP with fighter feats, challenge is fun it would be extremely difficult for a DM to challenge you with this class.

I wouldn't be opposed to docking it a bit, considering I'm not totally in favor of the extra ASI increases. The d12 hit dice is supposed to attest to the fact that they are indeed supposed to be a tank. But a d10 hit dice would not be so bad. A DM can also just about challenge anyone anyway with some imagination. Also, please sign your posts with 4 ~ at the end.--Yanied (talk) 17:14, 24 September 2020 (MDT)

I really like the concept and would love to use this class, but it really needs some rework. There are plenty of perfectly acceptable features, but the unbalanced ones are so bad that it just breaks everything. I really hope that this class gets fixed. If no one else does it, I'll try, but I can't say it'll be what the original creator intended. --Amalgamation (talk) 17:12, 27 November 2020 (MST)

Fighter

they need the extra attack feature to match up with the other melee classes

They don't need that many. Also, you boosted their ASI for no reason either. They aren't fighters you know.--Yanied (talk) 14:48, 24 June 2020 (MDT)

given that they dont get things like sneak attack or the spells that a paladin gets,i think they need the aci and extra attacks,they are meant to be God Slayers right?,they should at least be a bit stronger then the standard fighter

Not that they need to be stronger than a fighter. The point of homebrew is not to outdo the official classes just because it's named so, but to make something on par with it. An actual godslayer would be utterly game-breaking. The gimmick behind this class is more that it reduces damage. Oh, and you can sign your posts with the signature button or four of these ~ at the end.--Yanied (talk) 20:11, 24 June 2020 (MDT)

The Vision Abilities

At level 17, this class grants one-hundred and twenty feet of TRUE SIGHT. I don't know as much as others here, but I KNOW that isn't balanced. Maybe if the rest of the class was severely nerfed, but as it is now, no. Just no. Also, the Weave Slasher sub-class grants 120 of devil's sight. That's two rare vision abilities, just kinda for free. Again, I'm not the best judge of balance, but that's OP --Amalgamation (talk) 17:02, 27 November 2020 (MST)

While I will concede on the point of 60 feet of truesight being a level 20 boon, devil sight is available to a warlock at 2nd level as an invocation of the exact same distance. So that is balanced. As for truesight, I limited it so it is a bit more like the true seeing spell.--Yanied (talk) 23:02, 27 November 2020 (MST)

Totally Rebalanced the Class

Hey there!

I just finished rebalancing the class, as many people agreed it was much too powerful before. Here's what I did:

• Changed Indomitable Will so it only gives resistance to Divination spells, not immunity
• Changed Adding Scars so instead of the damage reduction being permanent and not costing a reaction, it has a limited number of uses and costs a reaction
• Changed it so it only gets one extra attack
• Nerfed Aposatic Weapon so instead of permanently having advantage against attack rolls against a certain kind of creature and dealing max damage to that creature on a critical hit, you can get a bonus to hit that kind of creature, it deals some extra damage on a critical hit, and it is temporary
• Nerfed Ascended Battler so instead of getting a permanent feature where if a creature doesn't succeed on a saving throw it automatically misses, it gets a 1-minute bonus that creatures that don't succeed on the saving throw roll with disadvantage.
• Changed several subclass features that were very powerful

And I think that's about all I did! Pease let me know what you think of the changes. I am currently trying to make everything as balanced as the official WoTC material, so if you think I should change something with this class, please, PLEASE comment down below. I will change it to the best of my ability. Thanks! --MarshDASavage (talk) 08:43, 29 December 2020 (MST)

Edit: I forgot, I reduced the range of the blindsight significantly (60 feet to 30 feet). I also nerfed the Truesight ability so it has infinite uses, but after the first one they start to gain exhaustion and it lasts for a short period of time. If the feature is unclear, let me know. I'll fix it. Thanks! --MarshDASavage (talk) 08:45, 29 December 2020 (MST)

The class actually was sorta rebalanced earlier. I am unsure of the following nerfs:

• The adding scars is kind of the centerpiece of the class so I'm not sure about making it only per rest. It's supposed to be a bit passive like rogue sneak so that it is prevalent throughout.
• Survivor's advantage in death saving throws is comparable to the phantom rogue's token of the departed. This version with the added exhaustion seems like overkill.
• Apostatic weapon is more meant to deal lesser damage yet be able to be used more often than once per rest imo but fine.
• You worded transparency weird so it now requires an action and a bonus action. The wording of its usage is also nonconventional and confusing.
• Tools to kill now just adds your prof bonus to damage, which is kinda peanuts at level 13.
• Evoke burst doesn't need a charge since it can only be used with Surge, which is already limited to per rest!--Yanied (talk) 09:21, 29 December 2020 (MST)

My two cents on this conversation:

• By looking at this class features, this is supposed to be a tank class. Due to this class having a d10, and not a d12, for hit die, seems fair to me that the Adding Scars feature should be a passive ability. What could be argued is how much this scale, as well as the types of damage the feature is able to reduce.
• Limiting the advantage to something already circumstantial like death saving throws is a unnecessary nerf. For one, this is a feature that for itself doesn't break balance, and if a class is imbalanced, is probably by reasons outside this feature.
• Apostatic weapon is a 11th level feature, which means that it is a Tier Feature. A tier feature that give you advantage on attacks for only a few minutes is a joke. For comparison, at the same level, other classes gain: An extra attack (fighter), extra radiant damage in all attacks (paladin), a circumstantial extra attack (ranger subclasses), a 6th level spell slot (spellcasters), all game changing features that bring the power of the character to a new level.
• Transparency shouldn't be changed, only limited in the number of uses.

Anastacio (talk) 09:56, 29 December 2020 (MST)

Hey there!

So, it appears someone has gone and undone most of my changes. Here's what I did, and my thought process:

• I gave advantage on saving throws against Divination spells that would read your mind or detect your location, instead of immunity. That's because immunity was ridiculously powerful, especially at second level. This later scales to resistance to damage done by Divination spells and advantage on saving throws against a Divination spells. This was because I didn't want players to get immunity to a whole branch of magic by 6th level, which is what it was originally and was much too powerful in my opinion. This has not been changed, for obvious reasons- immunity to a whole branch of magic is insanely powerful.
• Adding Scars was a feature that basically allowed a creature to get permanent damage reduction to any form of damage. Using the rules of this feature, the character could potentially reduce the damage to next to none, basically functioning as resistance to all types of damage. A damage reduction of 3 for bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage was apparently strong enough for WoTC to make it the core feature of a whole feat- Heavy Armor Master. This class gets even more powerful damage reduction and they can use it infinitely and against any kind of damage. I felt like I either had to make it against only certain kinds of damage or make it limited, so I opted to go for the latter. I stand by my decision there.
• Aposatic Weapon was an interesting one. I admit I nerfed it too much, but what it is currently is too powerful. It allows a person to have permanent advantage against a type of creature and max out their damage when they score a critical hit. It may be situational, but it is game-breaking when it does come up. Unlike all other 11th-level features, which are either used often or are very good but situational, this unbalances combat by an insane amount. The way it is currently is gamebreaking.
• I admit, I messed up with the death saving throws. I removed the advantage on death saving throws and made it cause exhaustion. However, advantage on death saving throws is incredibly powerful when it does come up, as, by the nature of death saving throws, advantage makes it nearly impossible to fail. It totally removes the purpose of death saving throws as a whole.
• They way I wrote the Transparency feature was awful, and I'm gad someone changed it. When I wrote it, I was thinking of the Eye and Hand of Vecna, and how the eye could use its X-Ray vision multiple times but it caused exhaustion. I wrote it around that, but in hindsight, that was a major blunder. Whoever wrote the new version, it is much better. Thank you for doing so.
• Ascended Battler has remained the same, which is good. Earlier, they missed the attack if they failed the saving throw, and the benefits were permanent.
• Most of the subclass changes have remained the same, with the exception of Evoke Burst. I made a mistake by making it independent of the Surge feature, and I'm glad someone changed it back.

I'm going back to change a couple things that I think were too powerful. I'm sightly changing Adding Scars, so it is now based on your Constitution modifier and is per short or long rest. I'm also nerfing Aposatic Weapon slightly so the critical hit damage isn't as much as it was before and it doesn't get advantage against a type of creature forever. I also will give it advantage on saving throws against effects caused by creatures of the chosen type. Hopefully, this will solve all the major issues and also not arise too many complaints. If you think a feature is over- or underpowered, please let me know. Thanks! --MarshDASavage (talk) 16:38, 29 December 2020 (MST)

I am slightly bothered by the change you made to Adding Scars. Like Anastacio and Yanied said above, this is the centerpiece to the class, and what makes it different. On the guide to making homebrew classes, it recommends to put emphasis on unique mechanics to stand out from the traditional classes. This class is based around not having to worry about low damage attacks, and so I believe that it should be a passive ability. I understand the point you are trying to make, that incredibly high reduction would be overpowered. I believe it would be in better interest to balance the reduction. Mushroomwizard (talk) 17:34, 8 February 2021 (MST)

Okay, I took your suggestion and changed Adding Scars a bit. Now it is passive, though it does require a reaction. However, it reduces damage by about half of what it used to be. Let me know if this is too overpowered, too weak, or is just right this time. Thanks! --MarshDASavage (talk) 13:15, 10 February 2021 (MST)

I think this is agreeable compared to damage reduction in official with magic items -b (thumbs up)--Yanied (talk) 16:34, 10 February 2021 (MST)

Thanks, Yanied! I try my best to make everything as balanced as possible. Please let me know on my talk page if you want me to rebalance something, or if one of my creations are unbalanced. I'll try my best to balance it. Thanks! --MarshDASavage (talk) 17:43, 10 February 2021 (MST)

This is great! Congrats, I find this a very wonderful rebalance. Kudos. Mushroomwizard (talk) 20:30, 10 February 2021 (MST)

Come On Guys

I know this might be hoping for too much, but we know edit warring is bad, right? Constantly undoing each others' edits isn't getting this class anywhere. Please talk about your problems before an admin locks the page for unconstructive editing.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:08, 9 April 2021 (MDT)

Every time I go to look at the edit and every single time I see the same thousand spelling mistakes, poor wording examples, and so on. I am in full support of locking this page. --SwankyPants (talk) 12:10, 9 April 2021 (MDT)

Okay, I have been on vacation for the last week or so, and therefore I have been inactive on the wiki. So, I went to check my watchlist, and I saw just a ton of edits done to this page. What is going on? I looked at the history a bit, and I saw this guy going in and reworking a ton of features, buffing some and nerfing others. What has been happening with this page? —MarshDASavage (talk) 13:06, 9 April 2021 (MDT)

I’ve been looking over the changes, and I think I understand what happened. They weren’t nerfing features, they just totally redid almost all of the features in this class to make it incredibly powerful. They also worded these features very poorly, making it really difficult to read. This sparked an edit war between God9876 and Ref3rence and SwankyPants, with God9876 making a ton of edits and SwankyPants and Ref3rence reverting them. Did I get the gist of it? —MarshDASavage (talk) 13:27, 9 April 2021 (MDT)

Something like that. --SwankyPants (talk) 13:28, 9 April 2021 (MDT)

Okay, good. I agree with you, Ref3rence and SwankyPants. The edits they are doing are doing more harm to the class than good, and they need to be stopped. I would be all in favor of locking the class. This is a very controversial class, with some people thinking it is too weak and some thinking it is way too strong. I would say that the previous version, the one God9876 keeps undoing, should be the one that is kept, as most people think it is balanced and a decent class. God9876, if you see this, come out of the darkness and please tell us why you are editing this class so much. If you can give a valid reason why you keep editing this class, then maybe we can talk this out peacefully. Otherwise, this edit war will go on until either the page gets locked or one side gives in. I don’t want that to be the case. Please, let’s resolve this peacefully. Thanks. —MarshDASavage (talk) 13:45, 9 April 2021 (MDT)

Maybe it is possible to make a compromise, with a subclass that has a third caster progression, perhaps? Anastacio (talk) 13:52, 9 April 2021 (MDT)

Maybe? It seems that God9876 is changing existing features rather than creating a new subclass. In addition, he has already made a variant of this class named “Balanced and playable godslayer.” I do want to resolve this peacefully. If God9876 wants to make a new subclass to this and not totally rework all of the features of this class, I’m not going to stop them. I just want to talk it over with them, but it’s hard when they are dodging the talk pages. —MarshDASavage (talk) 14:03, 9 April 2021 (MDT)

I have locked the page accordingly. In terms of casting, I am sort of against giving it anything more than an extremely limited casting, if any at all. It would have to be a small list of custom-picked spells due to the power of auto-damage reduction in the class.--Yanied (talk) 14:05, 9 April 2021 (MDT)

Hey, I noticed the page lock expired just a few days ago. Won’t touch it, but I am watching to see if God9876 comes back!^^Firerealms13yk (talk) 17:43, 22 April 2021 (MDT)

Nah, he's made the Iconoclast (5e Class) instead.--Yanied (talk) 20:27, 22 April 2021 (MDT)

Question regarding Adding Scars

So I noticed that the Adding scars feature was changed from being passive, to a reaction. I was looking at this and began to look at a number of the balancing features and unfortunately it causes this class to fall off at moderate to late levels of play. The feature being passive and against all attacks to me actually seemed reasonably balanced considering that one can’t be healed from spells at all. So if we look at this and compare it to… Say the Rogues uncanny dodge, the class kinda loses its significance and strength and a its core feature.

I’m gonna advocate for it to be changed back to its previous design iteration, at least while it goes through play testing further.

SoulKnight (talk) 23:17, 1 July 2021 (CDT)

The original reason it was changed to be this way was because Adding Scars reduced 20 damage, permanently. This was an incredibly powerful feature that broke the balance of the game, at least in my eyes. Now that it is down to 10 damage points at the cap, I could see why it should be passive. However, it does get a lot of other really good features, so maybe not. It’s kind of a toss up. I will say, though, changed it to passive drastically increases the power level of the class, so proceed with caution if you do decide to change it to passive. --MarshDASavage (talk) 08:49, 2 July 2021 (MDT)

I wouldn't mind returning the change to the original idea since the heal restriction does limit your options (and it is a centerpiece yeah). I'm glad to see the playtest went well. Maybe another run with the passive vs. reaction-based will show more. To begin with, the adding scars was to compensate in survivability for the class being a tank without a d12, as well as the fact spell heals aren't viable.--Yanied (talk) 13:10, 2 July 2021 (MDT)

Not really sure where or how I'm supposed to add this, but my suggestion for the capstone would be to reduce the flat damage reduction, and give a reaction that lets you roll to reduce the damage more. Makes it a bit more fun and engaging.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by ‎Apples the Hero (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

I’ll go ahead and adjust the Adding scars feature back to its previous iteration while keeping the amount the same. I’ll do some play testing and let y’all know how it goes. I will let everyone know how it turns about. As far as the capstone, do you mean the centerpiece feature? If so then I feel like rolling adds an element of chance of it that might make the class… inconsistent. I feel the passive is good as it is, and should be on every attack SoulKnight (talk) 19:27, 2 July 2021 (CDT)

I think that's what apple means, making it partially passive with a stronger possibility when you expend your reaction. It sounds like a good halfway possibly, if the pure passive route is too powerful. Anyway, thanks again for the interest and good luck playtesting.--Yanied (talk) 19:34, 2 July 2021 (MDT)

Some thoughts

I just finished rewriting the page in short. SInce this page seems quite hot with lots of changes over the years, I'll just leave some of my thoguhts on balance and design.

• Surge heals too little hp, even taking in account the damage reduction this class has making all healing more efficient. It's only one more d10 than the fighter's second wind, but the fighter gets its second wind as a level 1 feature, and it scales from being good to being okay at higher levels. This is already just "ok" when you get it (you'll have 137 or 151 hp on average at level 14, based on your con score. this would heal 25 hp). I think it should be changed to 4,5, or 6d10, based on how much one desires to push the class
• I think perseverence is badly designed. Slashing piercing and bludgeoning are almost always put together when given as resistances to players because it's basically random which one an enemy will hit you with (you can plan and expect elemental damage, you can't plan what kind of weapons dudes you'll be fighting will carry). Only getting one means you will be very strong in a random 33% of hand to hand encounters. I don't think it's a weak feature, I think the design is bad. I don't think it would be too strong if it had 2 or 3 of the resistances, but it could also be replaced.
• The Ascended battler is slightly weaker than the vengeance paladin capstone, while only gaining 40 feet of movement, where the vengeance paladin gains 60 ft. flying. All other paladin capstones are stronger than both of them. I think a level 20 feaure that makes enemies roll wisdom saving throws to get disadvantage on attack rolls is both weak and unnexciting. If not reworked, or having other effects be added, it should at the least give the disadvantage for free, and make enemies roll wisdom at the end of their turns to remove it. The 3 intelligence requirement is unfitting for a capstone feature. You should be strong enough to scare gellatinous cubes or wolves as well.
• The weave slasher's last feature should also let the godslayer move up to his speed or half of it, since spellcasters usually don't cast spells within 5 feet of their target (they get disadvantage)
• I think this class could benefit from an extra ASI, it's simple enough that a player may want more feats and it fits in with the other two class that get more ASI's (fighter and rogue). A vision feature may be removed, or maybe one could combine survivor and rebuke to make space. I want to clarify that when I say "could" I really mean "could", not "should". If all the above features were buffed, giving it an extra ASI might make it stronger than the barbarian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by vladulenta (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

There's not really any way this thing will compete with paladin, considering paladin has also spellcasting and 5e is biased against non-casters. This class initially had more ASI, and, as earlier comments said, that short of jilted the balance and whatnot, which is why it was removed. I do feel an extra attack could be added at level 20 just to get an extra use from the damage feature per long rest, and also make adding to ascended battler unnecessary.

• Perseverence was a bit of a compromise since barbarian has immunity to all three but only for the extent of its rage. I'm not sure if two of the bps trio is alright, but I'd be more sure if it was one of bps and then one from a non-weapon damage type list.

I'm slightly confused by some of the changes in flavor, but that's fine. As for the ascended battler's aura, it's more likening to Bleach's reiatsu than a golden halo of light.--Yanied (talk) 19:22, 16 August 2022 (MDT)