Talk:Warrior Monk (3.5e Class)

Rating

Power - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because it gets all the abilities of a monk, with a high base attack. Also, you are adding you wisdom mod to damage, and you put the AC bonus totally too high. And, just in case you get hit, there's always your DR. It's like you didn't even try to balance out all the stuff that you put in. --Ganre 22:34, 18 March 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because copy pasted pretty much straight out of the SRD. --Ganre 22:34, 18 March 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because while you used tables, and normally that would rate a 3, you used no text emphasis, and the article can hardly be called linked --Ganre 22:34, 18 March 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because it's a really bland flavor of monk, no story, no place in a campaign --Ganre 22:34, 18 March 2009 (MDT)

I am invalidating my rating because there have been signifigant changes made to this class. I will re-rate at a later time. --Ganre 08:26, 19 April 2012 (MDT)

Yea I am hoping to finish it off soon though it will take a little bit yet as I am still rounding out the RP side of the house now that the mechanics aren't terribly out of wack. Tivanir 10:43, 19 April 2012 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it finally allows a monk to match a fighter's offensive capabilities, without forsaking the standard hand to hand combat of a monk. and the increased starting ac helps with matching an armored warrior. --Nutcase65 21:23, 8 October 2011 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because everything seems to flow nicely. I look forward to seeing a completely finished product. --Nutcase65 21:23, 8 October 2011 (MDT)

Formatting - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because it still needs an epic level advancement chart. --Nutcase65 21:23, 8 October 2011 (MDT)

Flavor - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because it lacks anything past the initial description. Consider adding a knowledge check for people to notice the difference between a standard monk and the more ruthless warrior monk. --Nutcase65 21:23, 8 October 2011 (MDT)

Ratings struck as class has changed significantly since rating. Tivanir 09:41, 29 April 2012 (MDT)

Modifications

If no one has objections I might tweak this up to make it more in line with regular classes. Seems like no one has made meaningful contributions in over a year at this point other than slightly changing descriptions. Tivanir 16:50, 8 March 2012 (MST)

Please let me know how you think the revamp is doing. I will be fleshing this out more over the next few days just trying to make sure the base is good to go before I bother running through and adding more stuff. If anyone can think of abilities that need to be added by all means have at. Tivanir 18:34, 8 March 2012 (MST)

Finished up a lot of bits so now hoping for some input on whatever should be added to this article or any changes people think should be made. Tivanir 16:28, 9 March 2012 (MST)

Comments on insightful strike

I am having some slight issues with insightful strike and am considering dropping the bonus to hit and damage to 1/2 wis modifier any thoughts? Tivanir 10:44, 19 April 2012 (MDT)

Also just finished the combat simulation and for SRD it exceeds a fighter by a bit but isn't too overpowered. However if you start tossing in any homebrew it is obviously underpowered. Tivanir 07:56, 20 April 2012 (MDT)

It is an odd problem, but I think it has good precedent in Swashbuckler. I don't see serious problem leaving as is. --Ganre 10:35, 20 April 2012 (MDT)

True though my major concern was that it also affects AC so it would be essentially combining dex and strength into a single attribute for the warrior monk. I was just concerned that the mixture would be a bit unstable since that would replace multiple attributes solely for strength. Tivanir 11:27, 20 April 2012 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because the class is very close to the monk in power level. There are a few potentials for abuse, stacking improved natural attack comes to mind, as well as the number of attacks this gets. If this character were to get pounce, and two weapon fighting, cue blender. The last problem I have with balance is the damage bonus. It's not excessive, but it is certainly notable, especially since it already adds 2 stats to damage. --Ganre 11:40, 24 April 2012 (MDT)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the use of monk and warrior monk is inconsistant throughout the article. Also, it is unclear on how improved natural attack stacks. The last problem I have is the name of the speed bonus. I know it's right out the SRD, but for the life of me I cannot understand why an Ex ability grants a magical bonus. --Ganre 11:40, 24 April 2012 (MDT)

Formatting - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because the article uses tables and is linked. Text emphasis is well done. Afew minor problems(One dead link, and missing the class on the example NPC 'human male warrior monk' is all that is keeping the from being a 5) --Ganre 11:40, 24 April 2012 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it effortless integrates with the current monk slots, and provides enough diversity to set it apart. There is plenty of background information, and the example NPC is very well done. --Ganre 11:40, 24 April 2012 (MDT)

I am currently addressing all of these and I will drop a note as soon as I complete the corrections. Tivanir 07:47, 25 April 2012 (MDT)

Alright reduced some of the special monk abilities or removed them to balance it out a little and make it have a further deviance from the monk template. Fixed the broken links and the wording issues and fixed the warrior monk title for the NPC. Let me know if I missed anything. Also I specified the class improved natural attack is the SRD version so that people don't go off the deep end with the feat stacking with that. I also fleshed out the post 20 rules a bit, so when you have a chance to look it over let me know. Tivanir 12:44, 25 April 2012 (MDT)

I changed it a lot so might want to re rate the class. Tivanir (talk) 14:28, 13 July 2012 (MDT)

Concerns

As I looked over this class, I noticed that it just seems to be stronger monk class. Most of the older features, with a few extra bits here and there. I wasn't all that bothered with that until I read over some of the fluff. A normal monk isn't really all that different from what the Warrior Monk is made out to be. Monks aren't required to be monastic, scholarly, or ascetic, and often times these cases are applied voluntarily by either the player or DM; They can be everything that the Warrior Monk is, without the extra powers or additional noun. Can't really remember, but I think the only difference other than features are the alignment requirements, and that's barely different, if it is.

If you're trying to improve upon the monk, then consider that the Monk is essentially all of this minus the mechanics. If you're trying to make a highly specialized monk, whose abilities are unique and build upon his Monk training and lifestyle, consider making a Prestige Class. Jwguy 08:23, 25 April 2012 (MDT)

The concept for this class is it is an individual who focuses on the physical training and not the enlightment/self improvement/supernatural development that a normal monk focuses on. As it stands I am currently considering the removal of the spell resistence as it doesn't mesh well with the concept I had upon creating this class and it is suppose to be its own branch not something a person goes into later in life. Tivanir 09:24, 25 April 2012 (MDT)

The Self-Improvement that your 'normal' monks focus upon often involves Physical Training, which is usually involved in many real and fictitious ascetic societies and orders, and even the Player's Handbook makes this case, mostly referencing combat and fighting as a part of average monk lives:

“

Dotted across the landscape are monasteries -- small, walled cloisters inhabited by monks who pursue personal perfection through action as well as contemplation. They train themselves to be versatile warriors at fighting without weapons and armor. The inhabitants of monasteries headed by good masters serve as protectors of the people. Ready for battle even when barefoot or dressed in peasant's clothes, monks can travel unnoticed among the populace, catching bandits, warlords, and corrupt nobles, unawares. In contrast, the residents of monasteries headed by evil masters rule the surroundings lands with fear, as an evil warlord and his entourage might. Evil monks make ideal spies, infiltrators, and assassins. An individual monk is unlikely to care passionately about championing commoners or amassing wealth. She cares primarily for the perfection of her art, and thereby, her personal perfection. Her goal is to achieve a state that is beyond the mortal realm.

”

I'm not going to go all flaming warlord on the class or anything, I just thought I'd lend the voice. No offense, the class just comes off as a variant of the normal monk, but with a boost in power, even if small, rather than as an actual class all on its own. I feel it lacks a meaningful distinction and flavor, which seemed to be what you were trying to go with. If you're just interested in building your own variation, though, then by all means, continue. Jwguy 11:48, 25 April 2012 (MDT)

Made a few more significant changes to make sure the class is more out of line with the normal monk. This class is the equivelence of someone who isn't looking to attain a higher state of being and instead is more concerned with the welfare of others. Think of it almost like a monk version of a knights templar or a cavalier, they care more for the people around them then for the lures of spiritual perfection. It is like the difference between someone who goes through monk training in real life and someone who spends all the additional time they spend in meditation/contemplation instead training more extensively with the martial side of life. Tivanir 10:26, 1 May 2012 (MDT)

Featured Article Nomination

— This article became a featured article! --Green Dragon (talk) 21:22, 12 September 2012 (MDT)

Finished up some minor linking issues throughout the article. No real changes just adding ability tags like supernatural. Tivanir (talk) 12:42, 9 May 2012 (MDT)

• Comment — Links are not correct. There should be only one link to each instance of the link for each paragraph and every link that is possible should be linked throughout the class. --Green Dragon (talk) 14:11, 20 May 2012 (MDT

I think I have fixed it up but I will check it again in an hour or so to give it fresh eyes. Tivanir (talk)

• Oppose — Insightful Strike is unbalanced. At 3rd level it is like getting Weapon Focus as well as a feat which increases one's attack damage. If Insightful Strike is intended to be like Weapon Focus with a cap, though, the wording needs to be made clear. Is Focused Resistance intended to give a double bonus? Getting Stunning Fist instead of Weapon Specialization makes more sense to me. Weapon Specialization will, likely, have its requirements met. Although Stunning Fist will have its requirements met by most characters as well, they may not take the Stunning Fist feat tree whereas most characters who take Weapon Focus will take Weapon Specialization (especially since that is, likely, their only weapon). I also think that Stunning Fist is better to stop a character who is almost getting the artifact that the warrior monk is guarding; acting as another barrier against thieves. Does Kiai Shout deal 50 damage? The wording for Kiai Shout needs to be dealt with: the attack, damage, and the effect do not work together in any conceivable way. Improved Natural Attack is unreasonable. Every character will attempt to take this feat earlier, so having it (again) at 18th level is pointless for almost every character. Timeless Self works well for a monk, but for a warrior monk does it really make sense? Since the warrior monk does not have a path to become an outsider, maybe this could be merged into another racial type. Maybe some construct things could be reasonable, merging guarding with the monk. --Green Dragon (talk) 21:32, 10 June 2012 (MDT)

Unbalanced is a very relative term. You are comparing apples to bowling balls. This class seems like it was meant to perform at a much higher level than the mostly terrible monk class. You should note that it pretty much makes up for the mid-range base attack bonus. A really good wisdom for a level 20 is going to be around a +12 to +14 modifier (feel free to do the math yourself, it ends up around there). A +6 to attack rolls just brings the character at a +1 bonus over a fighter.

Also, Kiai Shout seems pretty clear, albeit boring. It lets you make any normal attack (ie. an unarmed strike) with a bonus to hit and higher critical range. --108.162.219.191 12:43, 13 June 2012 (MDT)

I think I have come up with some interesting changes and will see what I can do about making the class a bit more focused on the defensive side. I will also work on the wording as it could be a bit clearer on some subjects. 173.245.48.109 11:17, 21 June 2012 (MDT)

Actually, no, I am comparing a class with other classes' class features. The fighter gets feats. Does it ever get two feats a level?

Which changes are you talking about? --Green Dragon (talk) 20:39, 25 June 2012 (MDT)

Removing featured article for now since I am giving it a quick revamp to make sure the class makes more sense. I should have it up and running shortly with the corrections. Tivanir (talk) 22:06, 25 June 2012 (MDT)

Changed up a lot of stuff. rewording some things for ease of understanding and then it will be ready for FA review again. Tivanir (talk) 14:12, 6 July 2012 (MDT)

Alright attempt number two for FA. Tivanir (talk) 14:29, 13 July 2012 (MDT)

This needs to be toned down. In straight combat this is much better then the monk. Even with the abilities that a monk gets that this class does not get, the class features are too useable together in combat situations. I would make the class features each more unique and not all affect the same style of play. --Green Dragon (talk) 17:22, 1 August 2012 (MDT)

It's also worse than a druid in straight combat. There's absolutely no need to tone this down. It's just giving some teeth to a character archetype that desperately needs it --> the fighting men. I'd probably increase the BAB to full because even a straight fighter would tear this apart, let alone a rogue or druid. Honest question -> do you have any experience at all with class balancing? --192.138.150.9 19:05, 7 August 2012 (MDT)

I do have experience with it but mostly in other game systems (3.5 is still quite a bit wonky for me so I keep trying to make sure I don't over shoot) and I actually have moved or stripped out a lot from this class from what it was. Mainly I was trying to make a more militant monk that functioned better in combat, without making it ridiculously over the top. Tivanir (talk) 12:03, 8 August 2012 (MDT)

I just ran a numbers simulation assuming everyone is doing the best they can with the rogue, monk and warrior monk level 20 fighting against a balor. The current increases (doing average damage for all parties) shows the rogue, monk and warrior monk doing the following with the base numbers 20-5 making all other things equal: Rogue straight damage 216, monk straight damage (counting for improved natural attack, a feat they have to take) 140, warrior monk (base) 216. this is not factoring special circumstances or abilities so overall I think this is falling more into the balanced factor than not. I will look to see if I gave some ridiculous bonuses to a specific ability, otherwise I view it as fairly viable at this stage. Tivanir (talk) 12:24, 8 August 2012 (MDT)

My comment wasn't directed at you. The class seems really neat and well designed. I like how it uses Stunning Fist. But I'm actually surprised (pleasantly surprised, that is) it hit comparable damage to a rogue. Maybe I was wrong about a fighter tearing this apart -- druid still would, but druids are probably not the level of power you are shooting for. The Green Dragon dude needs to retune his balance sensors because they are not calibrated very well. --192.138.150.9 12:36, 8 August 2012 (MDT)

Before talking about other users make sure you understand the time of the post with regard to the history of the article (I have changed things, for example). --Green Dragon (talk) 20:38, 8 August 2012 (MDT)

Thinking of a slight rework on intuitive strike, instead of stunning fist for one round of bonuses maybe one use for rounds equal to wisdom modifier, simply because even with the massive amount of uses for stunning fist the individual will run out quickly based on the various things that use stunning fist (I am also going to have the designation for defenders feats also eat a stunning fist use every time.) Thoughts? Tivanir (talk) 11:31, 13 August 2012 (MDT)

I think with the modifications it is a smart move now as activating all of your abilities uses 9 uses of stunning fist for a single enemy encounter (this is assuming you use each ability once in the encounter) which is just under 20% (estimated resource use per fight) of the total you have at level 20. I do need to modify the abilities again to indicate that the defensive stuff is a free immediate action (can be used at the start of combat) so that it makes more sense. Otherwise I think the balance is coming along. Tivanir (talk) 11:45, 13 August 2012 (MDT)

• Comment — I would appreciate an explanation of why this is balanced. I am asking for this since it appears to be a class with multiple combat possibilities expanded upon, however without coherent sense and direction. --Green Dragon (talk) 16:31, 27 August 2012 (MDT)

Well balanced is subjective, but the key points are this at level 20 this thing still needs a party to be effective (he does a little better than a monk solo but not excessively so), he will use between 10 and 20 percent of his daily uses per encounter (5-10 stunning fist uses on average) depending on what skills he needs to utilize, and none of his abilities are game breaking. Everything all said and told he still doesn't come close to being on par with a fighter for consistent damage ability (since the fighter doesn't expend anything and can keep going once he runs dry) and while sub rogue damage it isn't nearly as large anymore. All of his abilities are designed to stack with one another and they essentially upgrade as he levels, opening up additional possibilities. Honestly I am happy with it at this point and if it continues to cause heart burn I will just remove the FA altogether and tweak it up to be a usable class. I am not interested overall in making it fit a pre determined slot just to attain FA. Tivanir (talk) 13:10, 28 August 2012 (MDT)

It's looking close to done. A few things left to do still. What does in conjuncture mean for Kiai Shout? There are also a few wording problems, and I would read through the abilities for wording as well as check links (missing an end parenthesis, d6 instead of "a base 1d6", superior natural attack is confusing, Wisdom is not linked to in some paragraphs). I find that that it is very close though, and should be an FA soon with a few corrections. --Green Dragon (talk) 18:27, 28 August 2012 (MDT)

I changed it. Looks good. --Green Dragon (talk) 21:22, 12 September 2012 (MDT)

The image is under copyright by Gavin Mechelli. Did we get his permission to use it? Marasmusine (talk) 01:23, 13 September 2012 (MDT)

Not that I know of. Do you know of an alternate? --Green Dragon (talk) 12:51, 13 September 2012 (MDT)

I changed the image. Good catch. --Green Dragon (talk) 21:11, 13 September 2012 (MDT)

New section and quick question according to ToB they upgraded the monks BAB to full any issues with upgrading this guys BAB to full? Tivanir (talk) 16:44, 31 March 2013 (MDT)

How would you justify the balance? The combat-abilities are already well honed, so increasing them more needs justification with another mechanic. --Green Dragon (talk) 19:04, 31 March 2013 (MDT)

I actually forgot that the insightful strike was a insight bonus so I need to redact that I thought I had made it a magic bonus when I first wrote up the article. I will go slap myself a few times for forgetting to reread before I post. Tivanir (talk) 19:15, 31 March 2013 (MDT)

This class's rating now responds to this nomination too. --Green Dragon (talk) 11:50, 25 May 2013 (MDT)

Rating

Balance - 0/5 I give this class a 0 out of 5 because its a blatant improvement over a regular monk class without good reason.

• The increased AC bonus over the regular monk should be raising eyebrows.
• A warrior monk should not be getting Improved Natural Attack feat, it skews the power curve upwards without reflecting it in the Flurry of Blows table.
• Also, the intuitive strike gives him a bonus to attack and damage rolls, it seems you couldn't justify giving the monk a 1:1 BAB, so you slipped that in there.
• Focused Resistance doesn't have a DC, so this is an incomplete ability.
• Stunning Wave a very strong ability that can be spammed. This ability should probably be gated like a breath weapon (once every 1d4 turns) or 3/day.
• Diamond Soul gives a warrior monk gains spell resistance equal to his current warrior monk level + 7. +7 is higher than any other class with a similar ability, in addition, monk already has Evasion and Improved Evasion, this makes him essentially impervious to all magical attacks. Too much synergy here, and is problematic for gameplay. Classes need a weakness. A mage is vulnerable to melee attacks, and melee attacks are vulnerable to magic. I'm overgeneralizing here, but the point still stands.
• Defenders Strength, what is this copy and paste ability doing here? ANOTHER DAMAGE DIE IMPROVEMENT. Way to sneak that one in. At level 20, he would also gain +60 temporary hit points, a +5 shield bonus to his AC, and a damage reduction equal 5/—. Is the warrior monk a Barbarian or monk?! Not to mention a +2 on all attacks, and an additional +5 to all damage rolls. OVER POWERED.

The first points that you bring up and Defenders Strength are part of this classes "warrior" focus. Relating it to the Monk it takes away the classes mobility and resolve, e.g. Wholeness of Body, Timeless Body, Empty Body, and Perfect Self in place of combat aptitude. If these trade offs are not fair, what what you consider as fair?

Focused Resistance is against diseases which have saves of their own.

Stunning Wave does have a cap, based off SRD:Stunning Fist.

Diamond Soul on the Monk is a +10. --Green Dragon (talk) 11:44, 3 June 2014 (MDT)

The monk is by far one of the weakest base classes and isn't even generally considered balanced against any other base class.

• Intuitive strike was to improve the base attack, to put it more in line with what a fighter gets. Also a monk doesn't usually stack strength, and he has to use an expendable every time he wants to turn it on.
• Focused Resistance adds the warrior monks ability score twice. That means if he has an 18 con he would receive +4 base modifier and an additional +4 for a stunning fist use that doesn't replenish for 7 days. In addition that is used up even if it fails.
• If you really want to use up nearly all of your stunning fist uses in a combat by spamming stunning fist in stunning wave you won't be able to use intuitive strike or any other abilities.
• Diamond soul for the monk is 10 + class level. Look at other classes before spamming incorrect statements.
• Defenders strength is a level 20 aka end game ability. It is designed in the event the tank goes down and the monk is suppose to take over duties. Further it only works within 60 feet of the thing you designated. Look at level 20 creatures (such as the balor) and you will see he needs EVERY one of those adjustments to live beyond a few seconds in combat. Tivanir (talk) 13:15, 3 June 2014 (MDT)

Wording - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because the wording is fine.

Flavor - 0/5 I give this class a 0 out of 5 because it does not feel flavorful, I don't get the idea that this guy is a warrior, nor does he feel any more monk-like.

Featured Article? I'm not sure how anyone at this site can get away with saying that this is balanced, or flavorful or worthy of being a featured article.

On top of it all, the picture posted of a "Warrior Monk" is an etching of Ugolino della Gherardesca!

That picture is about a father, Ugolino, and his sons that are imprisoned in a tower. The father's sons die one by one of starvation and the father is forced to eat his dead sons, committing CANNIBALISM, before eventually succumbing to starvation himself.

What kind of message are you guys trying to get across to people? Delete this page from the Featured Page!

So your objection to the picture spawned this review? Just because a picture originally depicts one thing doesn't mean we can't use it in a different capacity. No one said that this wasn't used in a different capacity, and it can easily be used in multiple capacities since it isn't actually showing the act of cannibalism. Tivanir (talk) 13:15, 3 June 2014 (MDT)

Apparently I forgot some wording

Defenders resolve is supposed to stun the character for a round when completed so you can't chain it back to back and the improved natural attack was suppose to come off. Any issues if I adjust the class based on those changes? It keeps the damage curve smoother and less ridiculous at higher levels. Tivanir (talk) 05:42, 9 September 2016 (MDT)

What is the wording you intend to use? Would it take a move action? Use more uses of stunning fist for full immunity? --Green Dragon (talk) 11:32, 9 September 2016 (MDT)

On the end it was supposed to say: Once defenders strength ends the warrior monk is stunned for one round. Tivanir (talk) 07:05, 10 September 2016 (MDT)