Talk:Theurge of Charisma (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

Carrying Capacity Issues

This build just screams Lesser Aasimar (Player's Guide to Faerun).

But remember you're not done until you have feats for all 7 slots and recommended spells for the Favored Soul and Advanced Learning.

Also, how would you distribute ability scores for the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) --Mkill 12:25, 17 July 2007 (MDT)

Hmmm.... My house rules is most often point buy, but would probably do my scores like this:Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 15 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by EaTCarbS (talk • contribs) 12:43, 17 July 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

I would ALWAYS warn people about putting an 8 into the Str score. The reason is entirely due to the maximum load you can carry. I play with a group that isn't too overly concerned with carrying capacity, but we do try to keep a reasonable record on that. A Str of 8 doesn't allow you to carry much at all, especially if you are wearing armour!!! --Skwyd 14:35, 26 July 2007 (MDT)

Str 8 gives light load 26 lb. or less / medium load 27–53 lb. / heavy load 54–80 lb. The heaviest armor he'll ever wear is a chain shirt, which weighs 25 lb. (mithral breastplate only 15). And for everything else, he has a pack mule, a bag of holding and the group dwarf. Absolutely no problem. --Mkill 04:42, 27 July 2007 (MDT)

So, with 25 lb. armour, if he uses anything else heavier than 1 lb., he's in medium load with all of the penalties associated with that. So basically if he uses any weapon heavier than a dagger, that's a medium load. And, you can't really have any spells that require material components, because your spell component pouch weighs 2 lbs. I don't think that many characters have a bag of holding at 1st level. Likewise, using a pack mule to carry your items is all fine until you have to cross that rope bridge or crawl through a narrow hole. That leaves the group dwarf to carry EVERYTHING you need, so you'd better keep him within arms reach. Of course, the dwarf is likely a front-line fighter, so he's going to be way up in the midst of battle. This may seem like I'm being overly picky about weight, but in my experience, if you give a character a little leeway, they will take it a long way. I've seen many times where a player has to put an 8 or 9 somewhere and they choose Charisma because they are a martial-based character. That's fine on the surface, however that same player would always use his character to talk to guards and innkeepers and nobles and pretty much anyone else and the player would try to make the character seem very persuasive and smooth. Then he would get mad when I required a Diplomacy Check or something and tell him he failed because of the roll. This seems like a case where an 8 is put into Strength because it has to go somewhere and the other stats seem more important. I would say that with an 8 Strength, there are penalties that can't be overlooked. But again, that's just my 3.5 cents. --Skwyd 09:44, 30 October 2007 (MDT)

How would you recommend fixing it? --Green Dragon 19:59, 30 October 2007 (MDT)

Str 12, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 15 --EaTCarbS 13:56, 9 November 2007 (MST)

The tricky part (IMO) is that there are there are many class features that need different ability scores. Charisma is probably the most important because it determines what level of spells (and bonus spells) that a Favoured Soul and a Warmage can cast. It also determines the DC of the Warmage spells. So I'd put the 15 there. Wisdom is the score to determine the DC of the Favoured Soul spells. So, if you are concerned about the DC of those spells, you should put the 13 there. If not, you can swap it lower however you like. To gain any damage bonus from the Warmage Edge ability, I would put a 14 in Intelligence. This also gives more skill points, which isn't that critical, and also gives 2 bonus languages, which can be nice for a high Charisma character build. I would put the 12 in Strength because both classes can wear armour and cast, so being able to move around in that armour would be nice. That only leaves a 10 for the Constitution and an 8 for the Dexterity. When I run games, I usually do a point buy with 28 points, which gives a little more room than this (which equals 25 points). So, my final array would be Str 12, Dex 8, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 15. Another thing that comes to mind is the fact that Favoured Souls have access to the stat buff spells (except for Cat's Grace, I think) and so if you want to use one known spell to push something up, that could be an option as well. Then again, you'd have to play through the first 3 levels without that spell because that's when you get access to 2nd level spells. So I guess that's my thoughts. --Skwyd 14:01, 12 November 2007 (MST)

One could afford to make Wis the dump stat with this build. Just load up on favored soul spells that are either non-offensive or don't allow a save.

Also, the last two levels of the build can be replace with one of archmage and one of hierophant. Select spell power both times, and your caster level for all your spells will be 21st at 20th level. —Sledged (talk) 20:07, 6 December 2007 (MST)

Spells

Level 6 spells by level 20? And only blast spells on one side? Not even close to worth it. Not an optimized build. Ghostwheel 00:55, 8 July 2009 (MDT)

Wrongly Templated

This in no way warrants deletion.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   21:30, 2 September 2009 (MDT)

What does this template bring to the table that's optimized? How is it demonstratably better than a straight favored soul or warmage? --Ghostwheel 21:36, 2 September 2009 (MDT)

Those questions warrant a playtesting request or template, not deletion.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   21:37, 2 September 2009 (MDT)

Except one can see (and has been demonstrated many times on countless threads on the WotC boards) that Mystic Theurge builds that don't have a way to get in early are fairly crap. --Ghostwheel 21:39, 2 September 2009 (MDT)

This is D&Dwiki, not WotC boards, and it warrants playtesting here.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   21:39, 2 September 2009 (MDT)

Issue regarding assignment of "+1 to existing spellcasting class"

I don't know where, or if, it is stated that a spellcasting class is limited to a class that provides its own spell list. I have a build I'd like to introduce, but I am hesitant if this is going to be the end-all. If someone could provide a reference to said definition/rule then I'd look at it, but as with ALL D&D rules, they are listed as 'guidelines' and can be used or ignored as the groups discretion. -Ithrion The Grey

Munchkin-Size Me

Substitute Theurgist levels 2-10 with thaumaturgist or Loremaster levels! Guaranteed to cause major damage. Since they say "add +1 to 'existing spellcasting class' witohout it being arcane or divine, you can add that to Mystic Theurge! Add in Archmage for Mastery of Counterspelling and Reactive Counterspell, and you can just use your spells to paralyze the magic of other mages while using summoned outsiders to eat them alive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sir Milo Teabag (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

*Edit* A spell casting class is defined as a Class that has its own spell list. As such, choosing Mystic Theurge as Loremaster's Spell Casting class is NOT allowed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.72.34.183 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.