Talk:Spiritual Will (5e Class Feature)

Ki Replenishment From the Spiritual Will Feature Justification

Monks at 3rd level deal an average of 14 points of damage each round, or 19,5 using flurry of blows. For comparison, a Ranger with the Hunter subclass, not even one of the strongest, with the two weapon fighting style (a style comparable to martial arts), would be doing 17,5 without spending any resource, or up to 24,5 by casting hunter's mark, a spell that can be used trough multiple battles.

Also, it puts the monk in a similar foot with the rogue in terms of mobility, if he decide to sacrifice damage, since regaining 1 ki point at the start of each turn allows them to take the Step of the Wind whenever they want, like most classes that gain some feature akin to Cunning Action, (like Rangers being able to Dash with a bonus action). Anastacio (talk) 12:08, 6 August 2021 (MDT)

So, the level after you get ki, you are able to replenish it right away? You do realize that is stronger than the monk's capstone, which lets you get 4 ki points upon rolling initiative if you have 0, right?--Lavie (talk) 03:58, 26 November 2021 (MST)

First, i wouldn't call the monk capstone a powerful capstone in the slightest, specially when compared with the capstone of other classes. Second, the biggest problem with monk is that it needs to spend ki in order to do things that similar classes can do for free. For example, the rogue doesn't need to spend resources to use Cunning Action. The minimum of 1 ki each turn fix that problem by allowing the monk to use its features at will, like other classes can. The monk is an underpowered classes, and there's no denying that, and making its features at will not even make it more powerful than other martials, just bring it to their level.

Anastacio (talk) 06:30, 26 November 2021 (MST)

Whether or not the monk's capstone is strong is irrelevant. It's the official capstone and regaining 1 ki point at the start of each of your turns (2 at 11th level) if you have none eclipses it, because you regain 4 ki points if you have none upon rolling initiative. You literally just ignore the fact that the monk's capstone gets eclipsed by this and also makes it a non feature because you will always have at least 2 ki points, making it unable to trigger. At least with it being once on a long rest recharge well after the ki feature makes Perfect Self a useable feature. --Lavie (talk) 09:23, 26 November 2021 (MST)

The capstone becoming irrelevant is less of a concern to me than making the monk useful long term. You having a martial class that have its abilities restricted, and a DPR class that is unable to deal damage makes the monk always the worst martial option for those who want to play it. Giving 1 ki point (2 at 11th level) make the monk at least able to use its class features, but limit just enough so it must choose carefully what ability to use. You are focusing on the capstone being turned useless while ignoring how the monk is underpowered compared to other martials and how this works to fix it. Anastacio (talk) 11:26, 26 November 2021 (MST)

Compared to just about any other capstone available to any other class(four attacks for fighters, archdruid, and god forbid whatever the paladin has), the monk capstone is like a 4th level feature. Of course it's gonna outclass it, literally anything would. I stand by the proper ki regen. --SwankyPants (talk) 11:35, 26 November 2021 (MST)

Mate, you can't just ignore whether or not the capstone becomes irrelevant when making a variant feature. Even when this was a class, the capstone was the same as the official monk. Go make a variant monk class with the feature how you want and make a new capstone that wouldn't be worthless with it. Leave this as is because your version literally makes the capstone a non feature, which is a terrible thing to do, because then a 20th level monk gets nothing which is worse than what it is now. Even with the weakness of the monk, you don't make another feature gained later practically non existent. Imagine getting to 20th level and you get nothing as a feature. Literally nothing. That just feels terrible. --Lavie (talk) 11:36, 26 November 2021 (MST)

Dude, this was a monk variant until you decided to change it to a variant class feature, which i'm ok with it. How about this then, i give something for the Spiritual Will feature at 20th level to replace the usual monk capstone. This would fix it? Anastacio (talk) 11:39, 26 November 2021 (MST)

It was barely a variant anyways, as it had most features and I take it you didn't fully read what I said. Go ahead and do that, then. --Lavie (talk) 11:41, 26 November 2021 (MST)

I did fully read what you wrote, that's why i get that, if your only complaint with this feature is how it makes the 20th level feature worthless, this is easy to change just making this feature scale to capstone level and being a replacement to the normal capstone feature. Anastacio (talk) 11:42, 26 November 2021 (MST)

New Edits

I'll literally just keep reverting this page until you provide me with a compelling argument to change the feature. Anastacio (talk) 04:47, 14 November 2022 (MST)

I already have. Stop negating resource management. There is no need for monks to just constantly be regenerating ki, especially when it comes back on a short rest. You're the one that keeps on ignoring that, acting as if it doesn't matter. --Lavie (talk) 17:43, 14 November 2022 (MST)

I'm not ignoring resource management. Ignoring the capstone, which is allowed to be slightly broken (as per Moon Druid Wild Shape immortality, which is core), lets focus on the 11th level 1 ki regen. Having 1 ki regen at 11th level have three consequences:

• You can take the Dash or Disengage action for free (which rogues, a similar high mobility class can do at 2nd level).
• You can make a fourth attack in each of your turns, but it requires a bonus action. Most martial classes already gain a 3rd attack equivalent as part of the Attack action at 11th level (divine smite, extra attack for fighters, a plethora of features for rangers). So, giving this extra attack just helps the monk to keep up in terms of damage.
• You can take the Dodge action or Stun a target for free. These are huge, but they are dependant on the monk choosing between dealing more damage, or acting strategically.

So, it looks a lot, until you consider what this means in terms of damage. The average damage for a 11th level monk is 24,7 using flurry of blows in each turn. For comparison sake, a fighter gets 22.4 of average damage without using a bonus action or spending resources, while being more durable than the monk. The rogue can get 25,9 av. damage without spending resources or using a bonus action. A paladin have an av. damage of 20.8 without using resources or using a bonus action.To add insult to injury, the Warlock, a full caster causing force damage at distance have an av. damage, without spending resources, of 20,4 (or 27 if you use hex, a single resource that at 11th level lasts the full day). So, as you can see, the average damage is in line, and even a bit below what martials can do, even with free flurry of blows.

But, since this gives you a bit more versatility, this kinda makes up for it. You can use Dash, Disengage or Dodge, but this reduces your DPR to 12.3; or you can use stunning strike and reduce your DPR to 18,5 to attempt to stun your targets. Conclusion, this modification just brings the monk more or less in line with the rogue in terms of fighting potential (but with reduced versatility, since monks lack viable ranged options).

Now, for your argument that this "ignores resource management", there are other features monks need ki for, so they still need to manage resources. 1. If a monk wants to use more than one feature at the same time for some nova damage or for any other reason, the will need to spend more ki than this feature allows him to regen; 2. If a monk uses a feature that requires more than 1 ki point (like a couple of ki features from subclasses) this feature doesn't allows them to use.

This feature only allows the monk to not be stripped from the only thing that makes them viable in their main role, as frontline damage dealers. Anastacio (talk) 20:06, 14 November 2022 (MST)

Monks dpr is fine even without it, especially at 11th level. They get more movement speed than rogue, so they can still use their bonus action for something else, unlike the rogue. Not every class needs to be a high dpr machine. The monk's other features allow them to be helpful to a party. Not only that, this is effectively a stronger version of the capstone anyways. Also, the rogue only gets one chance to hit, and without sneak attack they do nothing. The monk can ensure that the rogue gets it with their movement speed. The monk can move around the battlefield a lot more than others, picking off specific targets. It's not so much of a frontliner as it is one that picks off weaker foes carefully so that others can focus on the bigger threat. Using just damage to determine usefulness is pointless as the monk has a number of other ways to help. The monk always has access to effectively two weapon fighting without feats or a fighting style, and if they really need a damage boost, there are simple weapon magic items. They are also great at avoiding damage and drawing aggro, as they would likely be targeted due to being both a pain dealing with a number of weaker foes and being seemingly easy to hit. They can also reduce the damage of ranged attacks as well. Focusing on just dpr ignores all the other things monks can do. --Lavie (talk) 23:47, 14 November 2022 (MST)

Can you show me your evidence to say why monk dpr is fine? My changes don't make the monk a high dpr machine, make him average dpr. Ok, being a high version of a capstone is another side of the coin, and i'm willing to discuss that, if you can at least consider my arguments backed by numbers and concede that recovering 1 ki point every turn when you are at 0 hit points at 11th level is a positive change in the class. Now, for your other arguments:

• "Also, the rogue only gets one chance to hit, and without sneak attack they do nothing." They can literally use sneak attack every turn thanks to Steady Aim. Second, relying on a single attack for the whole damage on your turn is a positive thing when that attack is made at advantage, which it is thanks to this feature.
• "The monk can ensure that the rogue gets it with their movement speed." Almost in all situations, from 3rd level onwards, the rogue doesn't need any other creature to ensure he will deal sneak attack damage.
• "The monk can move around the battlefield a lot more than others, picking off specific targets." Rogue can do the same thing, by using ranged attacks, a more reliable and less dangerous way to do the same thing.
• " It's not so much of a frontliner as it is one that picks off weaker foes carefully so that others can focus on the bigger threat." Again, every class can do this using ranged attacks, this is not a monk strength.
• "Using just damage to determine usefulness is pointless as the monk has a number of other ways to help." The problem is that monks barely have other things to compensate. The exception being the Mercy Monk, who admittedly have some nerfing abilities, no, monks are terrible in most things. And martials need a baseline damage to at least contribute in combat when they are out of resources, that's why all materials except the monk (and at least 1 caster) have a similar DPR baseline.
• " The monk always has access to effectively two weapon fighting without feats or a fighting style, and if they really need a damage boost, there are simple weapon magic items. " Having access to two-weapon fighting style is not, per se, a good thing. That's why calculating average dprs is important. And magic items are not factored into balancing a class, since they are DM fiat. Also, why should the monk rely on magic items for a thing that other similar classes already have by default?
• " They are also great at avoiding damage and drawing aggro, as they would likely be targeted due to being both a pain dealing with a number of weaker foes and being seemingly easy to hit." Monks are not great at drawing aggro. There's no mechanics in monk that help them to draw agro. But yeah, i'll concede that they are great at avoiding damage...by expending a ridiculous amount of resources and sacrificing other abilities.
• "Focusing on just dpr ignores all the other things monks can do." I haven't though. I said why the changes i made on the monk feature help the class with things other than dpr, you just ignored it. Anastacio (talk) 06:02, 15 November 2022 (MST)