Talk:Main Page/Archive 3

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Its contents should be preserved in their current form. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 2 |
Archive 3 |

Submitted for Your Approval[edit]

I present the new form for submitting (non-epic) spells, Courtesy of Semantic MediaWiki and Semantic Forms. Here's what it looks like with the fields populated. —Sledged (talk) 15:30, 5 March 2008 (MST)

Hm... I wish you could make it work more like Form:Rating where it uses a template which, once saved, goes to the normal wiki formatting. Can this be done with spells as well? It's just that I do not really want the formatting of all the spells changed to this new "standard". --Green Dragon 20:18, 5 March 2008 (MST)
If that is what is wanted all you have to do is add subst: in the form code next to any templates you want to be substituted onto the page. --Hawk 20:33, 5 March 2008 (MST)
Just be aware that if subst: is added, you'll lose the option of using the form to edit the page once it's been created. —Sledged (talk) 11:21, 6 March 2008 (MST)
It is a price I would be willing to pay. --Green Dragon 13:44, 6 March 2008 (MST)
Okay, there's a problem with subst:. Part of the way to form works is that it looks at the template to see what properties it has and which parameters are associated with each property. When you use subst:, it's looking for the page Template:subst:template name instead of Template:template name and it makes the form useless as a result. —Sledged (talk) 14:37, 6 March 2008 (MST)

Wiki Criticism[edit]

This is the most useless Wiki I have ever found on D&D. I'm sick of homebrew rubbish. I'm trying to find info on Mask and Olidamarra (spelling?) and I can't find anything good) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) . Please sign your posts.

Admittedly, this probably isn't the best wiki to go to for official WotC material, but that doesn't make it useless. What's wrong with homebrew? WotC seems to encourage it, and the only real difference between good homebrew and published material is that the former is sold in books. --Daniel Draco 05:40, 14 April 2008 (MDT)
We are not allowed to have information about Gods and Goddesses on D&D Wiki. They are reserved as product identity. Sorry about that. --Green Dragon 21:27, 14 April 2008 (MDT)
Should be in Deities and Demigods, no? If you want even more information than that, you're likely looking into some very specific Forgotten Realms books. --Sulacu 18:51, 20 April 2008 (MDT)
Boy, I thought I was pushy and opinionated. This site rocks for people like us who want to post and discuss shit. What else could you want? So you want Wizards information? So what! They want your money! Give them money or shut up and start writing. That's just my opinion of this issue.
P ;) -- xido 15:07, 23 June 2008 (MDT)
Yeah, this place is cool... Homebrew is awesome. Problem is (though the first dude will prolly never read this) that if information on those two would be available, the site'd get killed. Would be a shame :). Anyway, enough about that guy's comment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Deranged (talkcontribs) 14:09, 28 July 2009 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

WotC Website Material[edit]

It occurred to me as I was answering a question about what material we have on the site...would we be able to host material from the wizards site? The Mind's Eye, for instance, has some interesting things, and I would love to see things like it on the wiki. --Daniel Draco 19:16, 18 April 2008 (MDT)

Hm... Can we --Green Dragon 14:19, 19 April 2008 (MDT)
According to section 2, "You are granted a limited, non-sublicenseable license to access and use the Site and electronically copy (except where specified as prohibited) and print to hard copy portions of Site Content for your personal, noncommercial use only; provided, that you preserve any copyright, trademark or other similar notices contained in or associated with such Site Content. Such license is subject to these TOU and does not include: [...] (ii) the collection and use of any product or service listings, pictures or descriptions; (iii) the distribution (electronic or otherwise), public performance, or public display of any Site Content; [...] downloading (other than the page caching) of any portion of the Site, any Site Content or any information contained therein, except as expressly permitted on the Site; [...]"
In other words, I think not. Hosting anything more than links here violates the spirit of the first, italicized part (my emphasis) and also several of the explicit prohibitions (especially the bolded one, also my emphasis added). So... probably not. And WotC has a history of taking a very hard line against IP infringement, copyright suits, etc. —EldritchNumen 14:33, 19 April 2008 (MDT)
Well once you sift through a little legal phrasing, that's pretty clear...their terms of use explicitly forbid it, since a wiki definately counts as public display. Oh well :/. --Daniel Draco 16:50, 19 April 2008 (MDT)
The shame is that this material will disappear. When I was documenting Wizard's past products, I found that many items had dropped off their site. They are poor caretakers of their own material. The academic in me want to preserve their own web content for their own good. --Dmilewski 18:10, 19 April 2008 (MDT)


How about an area under the Featured Article for a 'Feat of the Day' with a link to a feat... --Calidore Chase 19:14, 19 April 2008 (MDT)

If you go that route, you can just as well try to implement such a component feature for other groupings of data. Spell of the Day, NPC of the Day, etc. --Sulacu 18:54, 20 April 2008 (MDT)
I agree, no such special section for feats is necessary, they can become featured as well ;). --Green Dragon 00:44, 21 April 2008 (MDT)
Link of the day? kinda like a word of the day feature... --Calidore Chase 08:10, 7 May 2008 (MDT)

Other Netbooks[edit]

Does anyone know where to find the other netbooks from FanCC? I'd be interested in seeing them, possibly up on the wiki. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gruegirl (talkcontribs) 22:00, 23 April 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

I am not sure, sorry. --Green Dragon 20:12, 29 April 2008 (MDT)

4th Edition Link[edit]

I've had a thought; I think we could, and probably should, put the link to the 4th edition homebrew (and possibly the SRD, though we can't put it up yet, for obvious reasons) on the main page, because, as people in ENworld have proved, we have enough preveiw material from the PHB Lite (derived from the pregenerated characters and rogue preview) to make some powers, the 1st level for classes, and odd things here-and-there. As ENworld is already doing odd bits of 4e homebrew based on previews, we might as well provide a place for it to go now, rather than later.

Also, my gaming group has started a 4e campaign with the Pre-Generated characters, and everything is so much more better than 3.5. The fighter felt more like a fighter than in 3.5. --Sam Kay 12:26, 26 April 2008 (MDT)

Although as the deadline is drawing nearer and nearer I am leaning towards using the same revised 3e pages and just changing the identifier/creating a namespace for them. The voting (please see above discussion) outlined that the community would prefer that we distinguish 4e from 3.5e with just namespaces and categories. I know you have spent a lot of time on the 4e pages, however do we really need them? Is there any way we could utilize the current pages with 4e? Thoughts? --Green Dragon 00:16, 5 May 2008 (MDT)
Won't be playing 4e for quite a while. Checkbook ain't so hot right now. So I would personally prefer keeping a 3e section and a seperate 4e section. --Calidore Chase 08:13, 7 May 2008 (MDT)
I don't think it would be possible anyway. I think it would be easier and less confusing to keep them seperate... --Sam Kay 08:23, 7 May 2008 (MDT)
I have had a look over the 4e Homebrew page and checked it, and I think it is as ready as it can be before 4e comes out; we just need a preload for classes and dragons and we're fine (not enough info right now!); so as it's two weeks this friday I feel that we should put up the link for the 4th edition homebrew (but not the SRD!) now for the reasons I stated above. I don't think that we could combine the 3e and 4e sections, and I feel that it would be easier to use if they where seperate. --Sam Kay 11:57, 21 May 2008 (MDT)
Looks good, thanks for doing that. --Green Dragon 18:25, 22 July 2008 (MDT)

Random Link[edit]

Would it be possible to add a random link to the navigation links too the side? This will allow for a more rounded out site over all. Eg. people are able to fix and contribute to content that they may not normally get to see. This will also allow DM's to make more interesting characters. --Sabre070 00:21, 6 May 2008 (MDT)

I like the idea of a random page link too. Course there is one in the special pages link on the side and you could add one to your user page (as I have). --Calidore Chase 08:09, 7 May 2008 (MDT)

Featured User[edit]

How about a link to a particularly good user page. There are a few out there and it may encouraage others to create pages of their own. Maybe have a pool of good user pages that the link is randomly derived from. --Calidore Chase 08:07, 7 May 2008 (MDT)

I vote no. --Othtim 17:56, 16 May 2008 (MDT)
Any particular reason? --Calidore Chase 19:25, 16 May 2008 (MDT)
Perhaps because it could be taken as a glorification of the user chosen. OptimizationFanatic 19:54, 16 May 2008 (MDT)
A little recognition isn't a bad thing. It would also be a way for newcomers to see what they can do for their user page. --Calidore Chase 20:41, 16 May 2008 (MDT)
I am against it because it would further clutter the Main Page and I do not feel it would be used as much as, say, the FA link. --Green Dragon 22:21, 16 May 2008 (MDT)
I'm just imagining how it'd work:
Sledged is a wiki admin who likes templates, optimizations, and long walks on the beach. Come visit his user page.
Gives me a little chuckle. —Sledged (talk) 22:28, 16 May 2008 (MDT)
Ooh, I like long walks too... --Calidore Chase 17:38, 17 May 2008 (MDT)

Search Function Broken[edit]

Most searches return no pages; even a search as simple as "magic" gives an "nothing found" screen. Noname 21:13, 20 May 2008 (MDT)

Not that big of a problem... just search externally and it works fine. Just click a few extra times and your done. Nice to have it working again, but until then let's not make a huge deal of it. Palantini 20:52, 21 May 2008 (MDT)

4e SRD[edit]

There is some news about the 4e SRD here. --Sam Kay 03:03, 7 June 2008 (MDT)

WYSIWYG extension[edit]

I was thinking about how we want our users to have an easier time to post homebrew content. Then I realized that I spend a lot of time formatting tables and such. With a lot of website installations I do, I use Joomla, which comes with a built-in WYSIWYG editor. Well I did some research and apparently there is a good one for mediawiki. Take a look at I think this would be a sweet component to install -- for both new and experienced users. If there is a way to configure on your user profiler which editor to use, that would be even better (I'm not sure about that yet). --Aarnott 10:34, 20 June 2008 (MDT)


FYI. ENworld has opened a wiki.!/6718 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dmilewski (talkcontribs) 07:23, 7 July 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

It seems like D&D Wiki and ENworld Wiki have the same goals in common... I guess I just hope it dies out then, and luckily right now D&D Wiki is far superior. --Green Dragon 16:22, 7 July 2008 (MDT)
Death to Enworld! Long live D&D Wiki! Really I also hope their life will be short, after all we are far older. --Lord Dhazriel 16:24, 7 July 2008 (MDT)
One big problem is that they continue to garner support from people on the WotC D&D Forums. That is getting them to publish their Homebrew stuff on their site, while I find most users there do not even know we exist. It might be smart to more actively promote our Wiki among the Homebrewers there and try to solicate their content. Also ENworld seems to be pickier about submissions being completed within a timely fashion, and that they are grammatically correct with proper spelling. This may be something we should pay closer attention to; eliminating entries that have sat uncompleted for months on end, or ones that are painful to read because of grammer and/or spelling. --Sepsis 15:42, 15 September 2008 (MDT)

Featured Articles[edit]

Yipes...I've heard it mentioned elsewhere but there really needs to be a schedule for changing out the Featured Article. The current one has been up for 7 or 8 months, and I know there are 11 current nominees. Perhaps the nominees need to be better presented so members can vote on them without it seeming like they must hunt to find them. -- Sepsis 11:28, 9 October 2008 (MDT)

Tamriel and Elder Ccrolls: Oblivion[edit]

The Campaign settings involving the elder scrolls universe should all be merged together this includes those discussing: Nirn Tamriel and the elder scrolls IV: Oblivion, the nine divines, daedra and aedra, the tribunal temple saints etc.. it is kind of pointless that we seperate and break all of these up. --Moon Sugar Vehk 10:06, 27 October 2008 (MDT)

I think you should put this on the oblivion page.. Also, I think it has stopped development. --Sabre070 16:52, 13 November 2008 (MST)

Moving to new MediaWiki version[edit]

Hello all! I have not been keeping up as well as I should have on updating D&D Wiki, and have decided that we should get back on schedule. I went through all of the extensions and updated all of them that I could, and would really appreciate if people could go through a version of the site with the new MediaWiki (and extensions) installed, and let me know of any problems so they can be settled before I transfer over the site. The temporary site can be found at If everyone would take a couple minutes and browse to the parts of D&D Wiki that are really complicated, and then post the findings here, that would be great!

Please note that right now MoI's and Search and not going to work. They are domain specific, and I feel that they will work on the new version. Everything else, however, I just blindly upgraded! — Blue Dragon (talk) 13:36, 28 October 2008 (MDT)

A few things I just noticed on the spot. The categories look funny, and all the pages which use SMW things do not work (such as DnD Flaws, DnD Traits, 3.5e Sorcerer/Wizard Spells, and the first part of 3.5e Optimized Character Builds (4e pages are the same problem, of course)). Also DnD Equipment looks funny, and all the sub-pages of it do not work, like User Mundane Weapons. Also a white loading page now shows up when adding a page through a form. Other then that though, as far as I can tell, it looks great. --Green Dragon 13:40, 28 October 2008 (MDT)

Meta Pages[edit]

I just added a link to Meta Pages. Thoughts? --Green Dragon 03:52, 20 November 2008 (MST)

Downtime Today[edit]

Hello all. Today a water pipe broke and completely destroyed our router shutting down D&D Wiki for roughly 12 hours. I was not alerted to the problem until roughly 2:00 PM today, and it took several hours to get a new router for it and switch around the DNS. There will be some remaining problems throughout the week until a solid router can be used as a replacement. In the future I will make sure that there is not such a problematic single point of failure that can take the site down for such a long period of time, and I apologize for the lack of foresight in placing the router so close to a water line. Quite honestly, I didn't think that they randomly break. Strange.

The servers were not affected by this outage, so none of the data should be lost. Please let me know if there are any D&D Wiki specific errors which are occurring after this major outage.

Also, the fundraiser at the end of this year will be used to invest in second router to gain redundancy and try to ensure that if something similar occurs this will not be an issue.

Thank you all for your consideration, and I am sorry that this site has been so unreliable over the last few weeks. Reliability is now a much higher priority, and hopefully things should change after the new router. — Blue Dragon (talk) 21:23, 22 November 2008 (MST)

As some of you might have noticed this last Wednesday we received a backup router. It has not had an issue since it was installed, and should be more than capable of handling D&D Wiki's traffic for years to come. It has also been strategically placed away from areas that would cause such a major outage. — Blue Dragon (talk) 09:36, 29 November 2008 (MST)

Featured Article[edit]

For how long does each FA remain on the main page?   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   11:15, 4 December 2008 (MST)

I really believe we need to update our featured article more often. I know its unrealistic with our current size and contributerships to have a daily one just yet, but I believe that atleast monthly if not weekly is easily achievable. People who only rarely come to the site need to see changes, and perhaps they will be more inclined to see the site as more active and contribute themselves.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   10:13, 17 December 2008 (MST)
I concur. I've seen that living dead one for about a month, and it's not even that good/interesting. Jota 22:55, 8 January 2009 (MST)
As soon as another featured article nominee meeds the featured article criteria it will change. If you want to help change the current featured article, comment on a few featured article nominee's talk pages - either support them, comment on them, or oppose them. Once a consensus has been reached the FA will change. --Green Dragon 03:51, 9 January 2009 (MST)


Merry Christmas/Other Festival and Happy New Year everyone. Are we doing anything special with the main page for either holiday?   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   12:21, 23 December 2008 (MST)

No. However I feel that we should do something special for february 4th - D&D Wiki's birthday. It's turning three this year. --Green Dragon 03:52, 9 January 2009 (MST)
Does anyone have any good idea on what we could do for D&D Wiki's third birthday? --Green Dragon 03:20, 27 January 2009 (MST)
Maybe have a few people work on altering the main page code to have slightly different colors, say happy birthday. Maybe a birthday hat or the like somewhere. Have the featured article for the day be one on Age in D&D. If we don't already have that article it'd be easy to compile some age charts for the base races or something.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   07:57, 27 January 2009 (MST)

One Million Main Page Views![edit]

We have reached a major milestone here, over 1,000,000 views of the main page of the wiki . While I'm not an admin, I thought that this moment deserves some sort of commemoration, however slight. --Noname 19:34, 21 January 2009 (MST)

Nice catch. I welcomed our 2,000th registered user not long ago. It is great to see the site growing so well. Congrats all and HAPPY EARLY BIRTHDAY D&DWiki.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   19:36, 21 January 2009 (MST)
I added it as a news item. Also, I wanted to mention something about the 2000th user, however I cannot remember what date it happened on. Although I feel that the one millionth page view is a little larger of a thing, so I guess it should not matter too much. --Green Dragon 08:57, 22 January 2009 (MST)
Here is the diff [1] from when it happened. 14th.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   10:06, 22 January 2009 (MST)

D&D Classifieds?[edit]

I had an idea, what if we created a page for people to register if there looking for groups and groups looking for people, we'd keep it to user names on the site for privacy. but they could register maybe what state there in, city perhaps, or country if there in europe or auistralia. that way people hwo are haveing trouble finding a group could have a good place to look. my only issue is privacy, but i think if we kept it on a user name basis on the site it would be fine. your thoughts? Summerscythe 11:22, 13 February 2009 (MST)

I added to my page a User Category for Category:American Users (which then breaks that into Category:User from the USA and Category:User from Canada), and a few for Category:British Users are around. If this was properly applied to all active users, a page on DnD Other could be made linking to the cats. If enough users got involved we could then sub-cat that into more finite areas within each country that a certain user is from (i.e. for me, my main cat would be Category:American Users, broken into the subcat Category:User from the USA, then broken into one last subcat: User from Kentucky).   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   14:12, 13 February 2009 (MST)
Go Category:British Users! --Sam Kay 14:43, 13 February 2009 (MST)
You might offend some Canadian users by superclassing them as American... And, yes, I'm one of them. Just do it by country, then state/province/territory, then city. In my case Users from Canada > Users from Ontario > Users from Kitchener/Waterloo. Good idea though Hooper. --Aarnott 15:35, 13 February 2009 (MST)
Users from Canada > Users from Quebec > Users from Terrebonne. Sound a bit funny. Well im not against the idea.--Lord Dhazriel 15:49, 13 February 2009 (MST)
Ah, I didn't mean to offend. When I said America I meant as in the continent of the Americas, but I can see what you mean. Its alot more clear when the continents name is Europe, but with the U.S. citizens going by Americans it complicates things.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   15:52, 13 February 2009 (MST)
Ah! Sorry, I accidently deleted this entire idea because I saw one of the categories on Category:Candidates for Deletion and thought the deletion of all of them was discussed.
I think thıs is a great idea - maybe it can get groups of people together ın towns who would otherwıse have no one to play with. Groups of likeminded players who like to play with homebrew items. Here ıs what I thınk are good categoies. By Continent (North America, Europe, Antarctica, etc) done in English since it is the international language, then country (United States of America, Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Türkiye, 中國, دولة الإمارات العربية المتحدة, etc) done ın that counties language (so one is not imposing English upon them), and then state (Nevada, Califoria, New York, Niedersachsen, Emsland, Hovedstaden, أبو ظبي ,الفجيرة, etc) again done in that countries language, and then finially done by cıty (New York, Chıcago - you get the ıdea) done in that countries language again.
I added them to my userpage. --Green Dragon 07:26, 20 February 2009 (MST)
I think state should be county/state, as some countrys are split into counties, not states (england etc...). I find the general assumption that all countries have states is annoying (such as on order forms, etc...). It's not as if I live in the state of gloucestershire (especially as that sounds wierd...). --Sam Kay 07:43, 20 February 2009 (MST)
The name should not matter. Since it is added to the countries category, weather it is a state, county, Bundesländer, etc, no name will be attached to them. Sorry, I just said "State" above since I do not know an all-encompasing word for these thıngs. --Green Dragon 08:12, 20 February 2009 (MST)

Dead Space[edit]

Maybe I missed it with the last FA, but I can clearly note a dead space to the right of center of the main page. Seems we could pull the FA space out to the left by quite a few pixels. Didn't want to touch any of that important stuff just a note.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   12:53, 20 February 2009 (MST)

The Lute Strummer of Destiny[edit]

This is to be used when taking any Perform check, when performing with a lute. The Lute Strummer of Destiny grants a +10 bonus to perform check rolls using a lute.

The item was last seen in the History of Stone Museum, in the city of Hammerfall.

Isn't this site for general D&D Wiki stuff not necessarily items? Great concept though. (Oh and you forgot your user name.) Omen 14:16, 4 July 2009 (MDT)

Arneson Gone at 61[edit]

Dave Arneson, co-creator of D&D with Gary Gygax, passed away Tuesday, April 7th, 2009, at the age of 61. Read coverage on it at Wired, BBC News, Yahoo! News, /., and many other news sites. —Sledged (talk 22:19, 10 April 2009 (MDT)

Question: Category for SRD Templated Creatures etc[edit]

It doesn't seem right that the creatures listed in e.g. the SRD:Summon Monster Table are in the 3.5e Homebrew category. Random832 16:49, 28 June 2009 (MDT)

The creatures with the template applied are not technically part of the SRD. --Aarnott 18:34, 28 June 2009 (MDT)
Right, but I was thinking e.g. a specific category/section to indicate that it's constructed from nothing but SRD material. Random832 08:43, 2 July 2009 (MDT)

Statistics for a Specific Page[edit]

How does one see this? Things like times edited, times viewed, etc? --Ghostwheel 06:20, 31 July 2009 (MDT)

Check the Special Pages page to find some statistics for all sorts of stuff. Number of views are found on the footer of every page as you view it (ie. "This page has been accessed 1,695,529 times." for the main page). I think you have to look at the history to figure out the number of edits (is there really a point to that though?). --Aarnott 09:39, 31 July 2009 (MDT)
Just out of curiosity :-D That works, thanks! --Ghostwheel 09:45, 31 July 2009 (MDT)

Ads and Hierarchy[edit]

I will look over the ads which were added to D&D Wiki slowly. First I want to see how they function and then I will look at them for aesthetic value. Other then that and editing the SRD (please let me know if you want to or need to get rights to edit it; for right now), I will think a bit more about D&D Wiki's hierarchy and maybe change a few things. For example I don't like getting banned from my own website, etc. --Green Dragon 18:37, 10 August 2009 (MDT)

The Tavern is Down[edit]

I don't know if anyone else noticed, but the tavern chatroom is currently... inoperable. Not sure why. -- Noname 02:49, 27 August 2009 (MDT)

The server the Tavern is on is currently being worked on (getting a bit of an upgrade). It, as well as the Tavern, should be back soon. --Green Dragon 22:27, 27 August 2009 (MDT)
Please allow other IRC clients to connect to it >_> --Ghostwheel 22:38, 27 August 2009 (MDT)

Wizards of the Coast Community Site[edit]

WotC unveiled their new community site, and I went ahead and got us on there ([2] as a group. Join up!   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   17:25, 27 August 2009 (MDT)

GD, I assume you're on the forums. If so, when you join I can give ownership of the group over to you.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   12:52, 28 August 2009 (MDT)
No it's fine, I don't really care all too much; thanks though. --Green Dragon 18:58, 29 August 2009 (MDT)

50,000 Pages[edit]

I just noticed we recently hit 50,000 pages! Roughly half of which is proper content (i.e. not talk/discussion/category...etc.). Congratulations D&Dwiki!   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   18:00, 27 August 2009 (MDT)

Also nearing our Main Page's two millionth view!   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   12:53, 28 August 2009 (MDT)
Over 10,000 views in two days and an increase in unique traffic of 30 percent over the last week (a lot of it coming from the new WotC community site). Great job guys!   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   18:14, 19 September 2009 (MDT)
Another interesting statistic/fact/trivia I found neat. Wil Wheaton, the actor who portrayed Wesley Crusher on Star Trek: The Next Generation, can be found on Suicide Girls ( here) discussing D&D, and utilizing pages here on D&Dwiki as links for reference. Hey Wil, if you read this, join up! Also - Suicide Girls, sup ladies?   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   16:05, 23 September 2009 (MDT)
Please tell me someone is reading these bits of trivia so that I'm not talking to myself (again....). Anyways, according to traffic we're up an amazing 52 percent in use and here you'll see us listed in the Top Ten D&D sites - at number 3. I'll argue number two should just be a tie with us - but meh. 3rd is good.....for now.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   23:03, 2 October 2009 (MDT)
I was reading them. --Chainer 14:00, 3 October 2009 (MDT)
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