Talk:Lati (5e Race)

Latius?

What is a "Latius"? — Geodude (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 12:03, 29 September 2018 (MDT)

• A Latius is a hybrid of a Latios and Latias, as explained in the 3.5e version of it. Latius (talk) 12:22, 29 September 2018 (MDT)

Revision and Impressions

Section 1

I feel this race deviates from the pokemon concept. For one, the justification of natural armor is feathers, which I'd say neither pokemon have in canon (I believe they're just called fins on Bulbapedia). Furthermore, I think the traits need culling and clarification. For the flying, it says flight speed but described gliding. It can be succinctly linked to the gliding variant rule. And then it can get full fly speed at 5th level. The natural armor should be removed and the claws should just be on the base race, rather than Latios getting a boost of it. To keep the subraces more equal, I think they only need separate breath weapons. Latius could even be reduced to a racial feat I'd argue, like a mega evolution.--Yanied (talk) 12:07, 1 August 2019 (MDT)

Well, I wish you had asked first before making the alterations, but looking at what you've done, I have the following comments to make, based on the order of edits you did:

1) I liked how you managed to fix the Random Height and Weight stuff, although, from that edit, I can see that you were thinking about culling the Latius - which the possibly the main objection I have about this so far.

2) I didn't realise it went over the 8 at the time (except for the Latius) - if you had corrected me here about it, I would have been able to help with culling things to make it more acceptable.

3) I honestly thought that I read something about them having down feathers or something like that, but I might have mixed up Mist Ball's furry of down with the feathers. And I like how you included Levitate and Invisibility as well as the Latias' ability to appear human, although I kinda miss the fact that you had to cut out Mist Ball in order to do so. Still, more flavour text is good.

4) Not sure about the Mega Evolution thing, but I would say that it would require a focus, be time-limited, and require a long rest to recharge.

5) I don't know why you moved Trick of the Light to be Latias exclusive so that Latios could get Message at will - although maybe it should be altered that said Message has to be visual. But making the Latias ability to appear human work with more races is good.

6) This is where I feel the Latias misses out on not having Mist Ball, because the bonus to Luster Purge during the Mega state does not include a Latias bonus to offset that.

7 - ConcealedLight's edits) Combining Alter Self and Trick of the Light into Light Tricks is... not exactly a good idea. Especially as flavour text is lost as a result, and I prefer Alter Self's version over Minor Illusion/Disguise Self.

I just need to know the new actual Musicus score of each race after this so that I can see where we can balance things out and/or work Latius back in. Latius (talk) 02:15, 2 August 2019 (MDT)

I don't know if the Levitate skill would count as 1 point or 2, but if it is 2 points, then Latios has a score of 7.5 (if the Luster Purge counts as a 1-point) and Latias has a score of 8. In that case, I would possibly suggest Savage Attacks for the Latios to have them both have a score of 8.

If it's only 1 point, though, then Latios has a score of 6.5 and Latias has a score of 7 - from this, I would suggest Latias gets their own version of the attack which uses Charisma and which may deal less damage but could increase the DC of the target(s) spells or a given period of time, and Latios gets both the Savage Attacks and the innate ability to cast Invisibility at 5th Level (as they too can use it).

Regardless of which, I've been thinking about how to redo the Latius, and I'm thinking that they may get a bonus to Wis, and may have Relentless Endurance, Lucky and... I'm tossing up between them having access to one of the two Breath Weapons, their own Breath Weapon, the innate ability to cast Invisibility at 5th level, or a bonus point of HP per level.

Latius (talk) 06:08, 2 August 2019 (MDT)

I reread on the bulbapedia and you are correct that Latias has the feathers necessary to change the lights and allow it to cast illusory effects. It does not make sense for unarmored defense, however. I apologize if my edits seemed abrupt. I honestly have no reservations whether an OC like Latius is included, and I don't know anything about it (since it's your OC) so you can add it back in. It's just that from the previous impression I got, Latius just seemed like the best parts of both Latios and Latias, which made it an outright better subrace, so if re-included it'd have to be more balanced.

• 4 - The mega evolution thing was mainly an experiment on my part, as only one other pokemon race (Swampert (5e Race)) has it. I figured it wouldn't really be a trait worthwhile if it had too many prerequisites and extremely limited usage. There are feats that are limited in use but they do not require specific items like mega stones. This was to make it more general and accessible, mimicking real evolution (as per XGtE) rather than just temporary evolution and de-evolution.
• 5 - Trick of the Light was moved mainly because, as other pokemon people told me, only Latias really uses invisibility and such.
• 6 - The mega state's been edited so it doesn't help luster purge.
• 7 - I like the use of escalating spells, but I'd like it to be specific to humanoid shapes since Latias is not shown to be able to change to anything else (as per the Disguise Self spell), specifically)
  

On Latius, I think it would be interesting for it to have those traits that show off an endurance. You'd also just need a separate RH&W table for it, if it is bigger or smaller. On the base race though, I'm wondering if the 25 feet base walking speed is too much a compensation for hovering and glide. If so, it can be reverted to 30 feet. But in general, I'd like the race to steer clear of an 8 Musicus rating just in case.--Yanied (talk) 11:35, 2 August 2019 (MDT)

According to the pokedex, Latias does have feathers, as shown in Ruby's Pokedex entry: "If it senses any hostility, this Pokémon ruffles the feathers all over its body and cries shrilly to intimidate the foe." and Sapphire's Pokedex entry: "It is covered with a glass-like down." So it is feathers.

And regarding the Musicus score:

+2 Dex ASI is worth +2

-5ft Speed is worth -0.5

Levitate is considered as Hovering so its worth +1.5

Glider is based on a the homebrew variant rule glide speed so it is tentatively worth +X

Thus the base race is worth 3+X

For the Latias subrace:

+1 Cha ASI is worth +1

Light Tricks is worth 1.5 because its innate spellcasting

Thus the total for Latias is 2.5 and with the base race, it is 5.5+X

For the Latios subrace:

+1 Int ASI is worth +1

Breath Weapon is worth +1

Thus the total for Latios is 2 and with the base race, it is 5+X

So I am guessing you are assuming Gliding is worth 2? If so:

ASI is +1 per, Lucky is 0.5, Relentless Endurance is 1, Breath Weapon is 1, Innate Casting for Invisibility is 1, Toughness is 1.5

So you're going to cull some of those things if you want to stay within 2-2.5 like the other two subraces. --Alearori (talk) 10:58, 2 August 2019 (MDT)

Well, obviously, as I said I was going to use one of them. And I assume Gliding is 2 because normal flight has a min cost of 2 points. So I might just stick to the ASI, Lucky and Relentless Endurance for them Latius (talk) 16:11, 2 August 2019 (MDT)

Since you cannot glide without already being in the air, the feature may or may not be worth 2, since there is no way for a player to get at least 10ft into the air without a spell such as the Fly spell or they're in a situation such as jumping off a cliff. So if Flying is worth 2, this should be worth less, cause a player is unable to use the feature unless they get into the air somehow to achieve the same effect as a fly speed.

But assuming the former, you would be able to obtain the Mega Evolution feat by the time you get the 3rd level spell, thus obtaining a Fly speed without the Fly spell. Thereby making the feature useless cause you got Fly speed which is superior in every way to glide speed.

In fact, under the interpretation that you are also gliding while flying, you could actually drop 5ft against your will while flying due to the interaction between this gliding feature and flying, and drop straight to the ground after failing the con save. When you would otherwise not if you had only the fly speed. Which would make the feature more of a detriment than a bonus. --Alearori (talk) 16:39, 2 August 2019 (MDT)

The names of the race should not be capitalized in the lore, as per the wiki capitalization rules. Savage attacks doesn't... make too much sense in context. And hybrid stamina can be simplified in wording to be like the half orc--Yanied (talk) 17:39, 2 August 2019 (MDT)

Well, we have a slight issue with the fact that the race names - Latias and Latios - are considered proper nouns, and so should be capitalised. Savage Attacks... Well, I see it as a bit of a compromise, as I want to have the three subtypes be balanced, and that was the only 0.5 skill which I felt fit best. And maybe it could. Latius (talk) 17:45, 2 August 2019 (MDT)

Well, there are some races that would also usually be called proper nouns. Latios and Latias are tricky because they are legendary, which usually would signify they are solitary and thus proper. But if they are to be a race, it would be lowercase. For savage attacks, just bring back soul sight with the wording of find familiar. It should fit the number fine.--Yanied (talk) 20:57, 2 August 2019 (MDT)

I modified Latias to mimic the Eldarin's and Genasi's Innate Casting, so that Latias would not require the material requirement in exchange for giving up the Cantrip.

Meanwhile, the Disguise Self didn't have a tooltip to enable becoming humanoids, so I added it in.

But overall, the total worth of Latias should remain at 2.5 with this. --Alearori (talk) 21:14, 2 August 2019 (MDT)

According to Bulbapedia, Latias and Latios has no legs, so it makes no sense for them to have a walking speed. Also, the description states that it can move a "high speeds through the air" but completely lacks a flying speed. -30ft walking is -3, and 30ft of flying is 3, so in total, this would not change the score at all.

Also, your modifications to the feat made no sense. There would be no reason for a player to exit Mega Evolved form cause its better to stay in it forever, because they can. Which made the entire transforming part useless, so I added a time restriction like other similar limited usage buffs.

With this, since I've removed the X on the meter, the race's score can be determined:

+2 ASI (+2), -30ft walking (-3), +30ft flying (+3), Hover (+1.5), so the Base Race is now 3.5

With the subraces being 2.5 each, the total score for each subrace is 6. --Alearori (talk) 22:31, 2 August 2019 (MDT)

It'd probably make more mechanical sense if they just had a "movement" speed that consisted of them traveling along the floor but hovering, rather than outright flying speed. Then it's like in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon where pokemon who "fly" just stay level all the time.--Yanied (talk) 23:27, 2 August 2019 (MDT)

Flying speed allows a creature to travel along the floor, and since this race has hovering, its possible to achieve that same effect just like in the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games. --Alearori (talk) 06:25, 3 August 2019 (MDT)

Except it allows for even more than just hovering above ground, which makes more sense if you consider levitate rather than fly. Also, there are some races that have described flying but actually cannot really fly due to balance.--Yanied (talk) 08:04, 3 August 2019 (MDT)

I don't think flying is that much of a problem with the balance, since this means that under the spell like the 2nd level Earthbind, Lati can't move at all. Also, Latias and Latios have been shown to be able to fly in the air in canon without the need of being in the Mega Evolved state. And despite their "incredible speed" they're still slower than an Aarakocra which has 50ft of flying. --Alearori (talk) 08:16, 3 August 2019 (MDT)

I can get behind the mega evolution fly speed being buffed. On the base race, even if balance isn't a problem, I still think hovering is a more flavorful option. They don't naturally learn fly in the game anyway.--Yanied (talk) 09:39, 3 August 2019 (MDT)

But in canon we can see them flying through the air in the manga and movie without the necessity of being Mega Evolved. So this race should be able to fly naturally.

Many races with wings should probably be able to fly naturally by that logic though. But they were usually written off. Especially when levitating kind of would give the same feel in this circumstance.--Yanied (talk) 20:56, 4 August 2019 (MDT)

But because we have the opportunity to make a balanced flying race, I feel we should take the chance to try to do so instead of clipping it at the bud just to make it easier to balance. --Alearori (talk) 21:58, 4 August 2019 (MDT)

If that's seriously it, then I guess. I probably would have just done hover, then fly later since I like PMD personally.--Yanied (talk) 22:21, 4 August 2019 (MDT)

If we were to mimic the PMD series, then Luster Purge would be a single target melee range attack, but in the anime and manga, Luster Purge was shown to be a long range beam, and in the original game, Luster Purge can hit the Pokemon adjacent to the target. But PMD is also a spin-off, so the things in the game would be non-canon, which is why I opted to follow the anime, manga, and the main line games. --Alearori (talk) 06:37, 5 August 2019 (MDT)

I'm not going to narrow it to the canon main anime and games. I wanted a mix of side and main, since they reveal different aspects of the subjects. So exploration like PMD, for example, and anime for the niche traits, but pokedex in the main games for the main ones.--Yanied (talk) 19:29, 5 August 2019 (MDT)

Section 2

I'm splitting this into sections to help make things a bit easier on the eyes. Anyways, I feel we are close to a near-finished V2.0 for the Latis. Latius (talk) 11:27, 4 August 2019 (MDT)

With the new revisions to the race, the Musicus score total is now 6 for every subrace in total, which is within the recommended 5-6 target score, because:

Due to +2 ASI (+2), 10ft Walking (-2), 30ft Flying (+3), Armor Restriction (-1), and Hover (+1.5), the base race is now 3.5

Due to +1 ASI (+1), 1st Level Innate Casting (+0.5), 2nd Level Innate Casting (+1), Latias gives +2.5

Due to +1 ASI (+1), Breath Weapon (+1), and 1/Long Rest one-way Message spell that also share senses (0.5), Latios gives +2.5

Due to +1 ASI (+1), Relentless Endurance (+1), Lucky (+0.5), Latius gives +2.5

Meanwhile, the feat, ignoring that it is limited usage:

+30ft Flying would be at most +3 because the race already have 30ft flying initially and this is temporary

+1 Bonus to AC would be at most +0.5 because Dual Wielder gets it as a non-limited usage passive

Once per turn, treating a 1 on a damage die as a 2 is at most +0.5 because Elemental Adept gets it as a non-limited usage passive

Thus the feat is at most a +4, but the fact its limited usage should drop it by 1, making the feat worth at most 3. But feats range from 1-4 total worth, so it should be fine.

As for encounters, the race should be balanced for encounters because since every feature except the Lucky feat on the Latius is limited to once per long rest, so this race would be gaining benefits from only the flying during a majority of the encounters, or else they will be unable to reap the benefits of the rest their traits for the remainder of their encounters before their next long rest.

For the combat utilities they do have, excluding the Flying, Latias and Latios both have only one trait with obvious usability in combat. Latias with the 1/Long Rest Invisibility, and Latios with the 1/Long Rest Breath Weapon. Meanwhile, Latius has two which is the 1/Long Rest Relentless Endurance, and the unlimited usage Lucky feat. Meanwhile with the feat, they would gain one more 1/Long Rest ability at level 4 when they can gain their first feat, but after using these features, Latias and Latios will be burnt to nothing to rely on in combat except the Flying, meanwhile Latius still has the Lucky feat.

For the non-combat encounters, excluding the flying, Latias and Latios both have only one trait with obvious but niche utility outside of combat. Latias with the 1/Long Rest Disguise Self, and Latios with the 1/Long Rest Sight Sharing. Latius has one which is the unlimited usage Lucky feat. So in this aspect, the three are roughly balanced with each other.

So to make the subraces balanced with each other, replacing the Lucky feat with something else would be necessary. But overall, the rest of the race should be balanced in regards to having the flying, because the rest of the features will only be able to help the race once before the only help they'd get from the race is the flying. So any additional input regarding the balance would be nice.--Alearori (talk) 22:44, 4 August 2019 (MDT)

Well, I've been thinking about a few things. One of which is that Latis could in theory 'swim' by using their flying speed, possibly 20ft/turn for a 0.5 point increase. Another was the 'trance' thing, which would allow them to have a Long Rest after only 4 hours of 'sleep', which I had in the original one and was 0.5 points as well.

A third thing is that body armours and maybe backpacks would need to be adapted for the Latis due to their wings, which could be able to cover part or all of the cost of Trance and/or the Swim Speed if we include them. Back when Alteration Costs were a thing for Flying, it was -0.5 points for a 50% increase in cost to alter the gear (backpacks or armour) - so I would guess it would possibly be the same.

Also, Latis are weak to Ice Type moves, so I feel this could be added in as a weakness to Cold damage to grant an extra point to spend. This could go towards swimming/Trance, and/or giving them a natural weapon at the baseline. Also, I've been thinking that Arcane Bolt or Elemental Arrow could be a good Cantrip for Latias, Psychic Attack for Latios and Elemental Blow for Latius.

I will admit, I don't know of any feature which would be useful for a Latius which would still only cost 0.5 points and have a 1 use/long rest limit. So for the moment, I'll leave it as it is.

So, in theory:

The base race would get Damage Vulnerability, Cold (-1), Armour Alteration (-0.5(?)), Trance (0.5, used more for the 4-hour sleep to regain uses of skills) and either a 20ft swim speed (0.5) and/or a 1d4 Natural Weapon (0.5) for a modified total of between 3-4

Latias would get either Arcane Bolt or Elemental Arrow (maybe with the one used reworked into Mist Ball in a way?) as a cantrip spell (+0.5) for a modified total between 6-7

Latios would get Psychic Attack as a cantrip spell (+0.5) for a modified total between 6-7

Latius would get Elemental Blow (which deals either psychic or radiant damage instead of the ones mentioned) as a cantrip spell (+0.5) for a modified total between 6-7

This gives the Latis a clear weakness, but gives them some more combat viability and movement options to make up for it. Latius (talk) 01:51, 5 August 2019 (MDT)

The point is to not do that because the race is balanced already, and it is because of the flying that this needs to stay like this, otherwise the race would be too OP at early levels.

Also, Latis could swim using their flying speed already by using 2ft of flying for every 1ft of swimming, so there's no point in giving 20ft swimming when they could already do 15ft swimming

Latias and Latios are not shown to be able to Trance in canon, and it is a feature that could ruin the current balance since it reduces a long rest to 4 hours.

Also, we should not add more combat capabilities, because it already has flying which is a huge boost already, so even though cold is a common damage type, adding more combat utility would make the race more OP

And just because the race falls into the recommended score total in the Musicus meter, it does not mean that it is not OP. --Alearori (talk) 06:24, 5 August 2019 (MDT)

Ah, right. Well, I still say we should include the weakness to cold damage and, given that we don't need the Swim speed or the Trance ability, and the fact that you say that combat is already on point, instead we could have a Damage Resistance to psychic attacks for Latias and Latios, Mask of the Wild for Latias to help their stealthy side, Brave for Latios - my reasoning is that the Latios from Pokémon Heroes had to be brave in order to do what he did, even though it was what ended his life - and as for Latius, I think Lucky could be replaced with either Toughness to complement their survivability, or maybe training in Autohypnosis (Skill Proficiency: Autohypnosis) along with the ability to use their Con score instead of Wis when using Autohypnosis for Resist Dying and/or Willpower - the former being explained as the fact that the Latius has two minds, so the training to gain mastery over their body and mind is made somewhat easier. Latius (talk) 07:40, 5 August 2019 (MDT)

The race doesn't need more combat survivability because of the flying, they can just fly out of the range of most attacks.

Latias already has Invisibility and the +2 Dex from the base race, there's no need for more stealth via Mask of the Wild

One character's personality does not imply it to the entire race. E.g. there are various brave humans in the past, but that doesn't mean humans should get the Brave trait.

Toughness is a trait worth 1.5, so it'd have to replace both Relentless Endurance and Lucky for balance purposes.

In 5e there's no such thing as a Autohypnosis skill proficiency, Resist Dying nor Willpower. So it doesn't make sense to add any of those. --Alearori (talk) 08:11, 5 August 2019 (MDT)

Woops, I just realised that that's a 3.5e thing, not a 5e thing, the Autohypnosis stuff. And... I have nothing else I would suggest for improvements, so I think I'd just say add in the weakness to cold damage and the resistance to psychic damage and have Latis have a score of 5.5 overall. Latius (talk) 11:39, 5 August 2019 (MDT)

Equipment fitting is a variant rule on page 144 of the PHB. So if this rule is enabled by the DM, they have to find equipment that fits them regardless of that trait. And it's actually 10%-40% of the cost of the equipment because the cost to refit is 1d4 x 10. --Alearori (talk) 12:42, 5 August 2019 (MDT)

Well, now that's sorted, I think this version of it is ready to be fully released. Latius (talk) 13:55, 5 August 2019 (MDT)

The part about added equipment cost due to body type is sometimes included in the flying trait due to the fact adjustments mainly are made due to irregular body shape. There are some winged and even large races that have this extra cost written in directly with no mention of variance.--Yanied (talk) 19:32, 5 August 2019 (MDT)

The PHB's example is for when a gnome tries to wear a cloud giant's robe, which would obviously require adjustments because a cloud giant is a Huge creature while a gnome is Small, which does make sense because its realistic. But I feel like adding such as a trait could cause some trouble when the trait interacts with the variant rule in the PHB. Where they'd have a choice between 50% alteration cost, and the PHB's 10%-40% alteration cost. From a player's point of view, they would obviously want to pay the PHB's cost because its cheaper, but the DM could want them pay the 50% alteration cost because that's what the trait says, which could potentially cause chaos at the table because this homebrew trait and that variant rule would contest each other. It'd be better to prevent all that by not having such a function in a trait. --Alearori (talk) 21:28, 5 August 2019 (MDT)

Well, I wasn't sure about what price I wanted, but thinking about it, it would possibly be about 20-25% due to just needing gaps in the back for the wings. But like you said, we can leave that out of the main stuff. Latius (talk) 00:04, 6 August 2019 (MDT)

"The cost of such alterations are DM fiat and shouldn't be included in a racial trait." is a valid stance other users on the site have taken. Of which I see as being reasonable given 5th editions design philosophies. For simplicity and ease of use, I wouldn't include it. —ConcealedLight (talk) 00:22, 6 August 2019 (MDT)

Well, I haven't included it, but I've left a note saying that if it is being used, the modifications need to be made, otherwise there are two downsides - the inability to fly, and the disadvantage to Dex stuff. That feels like it works out best without actually including it.

And with that, I think it's about time we end this segment. If there are any more edits, I would suggest putting the talk about that in a third one, because this is getting a bit too indented to do much more. Latius (talk) 02:44, 6 August 2019 (MDT)

Section 3

Hoo boy, looks like I have to do a third one to respond to the balance issues...

• 1) In the games, Latios are weak to Dark-, Ice-, Bug-, Fairy-, Dragon- and Ghost-Type attacks. The Cold weakness is to replicate the Ice-Type weakness, and given how some people say the race can be OP (which given that it's based on a Legendary Pokémon, is somewhat understandable) I feel that such a major weakness is needed. If it becomes less OP, then changing the weakness would be best.

• 2) Regarding the "Equipment fitting" stuff, I'm not sure what you exactly mean by that. Can you clarify, please?

• 3) I agree, 1st Level Flying is a bit OP - which was why when I first created them, I had them have a Glide speed instead. Maybe this could be nerfed at lower levels to be gliding and/or be slower until you reach a level cap.

• 4) I had never known about the Aasimar's transformation ability, but after having a look at it, I feel that the Mega Evolution stuff should be limited to 1 minute per long rest in that case. This might mean I'd have to edit the Soul Dew to have a different synergy with Mega Evolution, maybe making it where you can recover the use of it every short rest instead.

• 5) I wasn't the one who'd increased the AC, but I have to agree on that.

• 6) Well, we have been debating about swapping them both out for the +1HP per level, and while before I haven't budged... Maybe I should. Even though Latius is meant to be the rarest of the trio.

Latius (talk) 00:45, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

Note: I just double-checked the 3.5e version, and Latis get a boost to Dex and a boost to their speeds in that. So I would like to indeed change my point for 6) to alter it to something which suits their increased speed. Latius (talk) 01:18, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

Adding onto the above points:

• 1) Because flying is OP, that is why there is vulnerability to a common damage type for balance purposes. It let's the DM threaten the PC with cold damage so they can't fly too high or else they could fall to their death.
• 3) First level flying is OP, but that's all this race has after it uses up all of its other traits because its other traits are all 1/long rest.
• 4) I've modified the Mega Evolution so now it only lasts for 1 minute and can't be used again until resting
• 5) l swapped the AC bonus to removal of the vulnerability, so now it doesn't break bounded accuracy.

With the removal of hover, the race is in total now only has a total of 4 on the Musicus meter because:

+2 ASI (+2), cold vulnerability (-1), psychic resistance (+0.5), 10ft walking (-2), 30ft flying(+3), armor restriction(-1), thus the base race is a total of 1.5.

The subraces were left unchanged, so they still only give +2.5 each.

So now this race should be balanced because its total score is less than any of the official races. --Alearori (talk) 08:14, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

I have a slight issue with the removal of the vulnerability when Mega'd, as Latis don't change their Types when Mega Evolved. Maybe they could instead get advantage with regards to dodging, but only as a reaction action, meaning they only can get it once a turn? Other than that, the changes to the base race I'm content with. Latius (talk) 08:43, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

Oh, and also, I've tweaked the Latius. Now it gives a +1 to the stat which originally had +2, which is 1.5 points, as well as the Nimble and increased movement speeds to Flight and Walk, which is another 1.5 points in total. However, the nature of how a Latius is born - the fact that technically, they are half Latias and half Latios, and could have been a Latias and a Latios, thus meaning they have two minds - is a weakness in one regard, as it gives them a disadvantage to mental attacks, and I was thinking about also having them lose the resistance to psychic attacks as well to potentially bump the Flight speed up to 40ft/turn, giving them a 33% increase in speed overall for both movement types they have. I do not know what the 'cost' for the disadvantage to mental attacks would be, but I would assume it might be -0.5 or -1 - I have gone with the former for now though. Latius (talk) 09:03, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

You give all opponent that is attacking you disadvantage when you use the Dodge action for the whole turn. Any variation of that is a 9th or higher Rogue feature which is too powerful for a feat. So I instead gave it to two resistances they have in-game, which is to fire and electric.

Also, +1 to ASI is always worth +1 on the meter, so that's +1

+5ft to walking and flying is 0.5 each to make it +1 total.

Nimble is 0.5

Thus the total for Latius ranges from 1.5-2.5 depending --Alearori (talk) 11:28, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

Ah, good point about that.

Also, the meter page states that "The cost of this trait (Ability Scores Increase) is 1.5 for the first extra point above baseline (+2/+1) ... A race with only +3 in one ability score would be worth 3.5."

If it was +1, then I would have increased the flying speed to 40ft, which after taking the weakness of the dual mind into account at -0.5, would be a 2.5 total, as that's what I was aiming for. Latius (talk) 14:23, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

Just to nitpick, without need to reference fitting, I was thinking the whole armor thing would go like:

"Due to your wings, normal armor cannot fit you and you must have it accordingly altered. The cost to alter your gear to suit your unique form is equal to half the cost of the gear."

Again, not wholly necessary. I just liked that it didn't need a reference and I believe there is another flying race or two which use this kind of wording.--Yanied (talk) 17:24, 7 August 2019 (MDT)

Well, due to two things, I would say that the cost would be a quarter. The first being that the optional rule has the price to alter gear being between 10-40 percent of the base price, and the second being that the only major alterations needed is gaps in the back for the wings. Latius (talk) 00:15, 8 August 2019 (MDT)

I've been thinking for this as the Latius' ability:

You are able to dash up to three times your regular speed, both normal and flying, and can use the dash as an attack by attempting to ram into someone. The target has to make a Dexterity save against a DC of 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus. If they fail, you deal 1d6 + your Strength modifier bludgeoning damage to them and receive half of that damage, rounded down to a minimum of 1, as recoil, and stop in front of them. If they pass, they dodge the attack and you must keep on moving in a straight line until you use up all your dash speed or you hit an obstacle or someone else. If you hit someone else, they have to make the Dexterity save or else they take the damage, even if they are an ally, while you take the normal recoil damage. If you hit an immovable obstacle, however, you take 1d6 + your Strength modifier bludgeoning damage

It might need some tweaking, but I hope it starts to sort some things out. Latius (talk) 05:22, 10 August 2019 (MDT)

I have realized that the height restriction just makes the flying speed just as equivalent to hover. So I readded that back in and made it so the hover speed evolves into the flying speed.

Removed the armor alteration costs, because it creates and adds alot of confusing rules to the flying speed, that it is better off not existing to begin with

Having Dash be 3x your move speed is super OP, because even for level 2 Rogue, they need to expend a bonus action just to achieve the same result. --Alearori (talk) 05:49, 10 August 2019 (MDT)

The hover switching to flying might need some clarification, but I feel that works.

Yeah, possibly best to leave it without, even though if that optional rule is in use, it would be recommended.

So, leave it as 2x the normal dash speed... Actually, can you dash while Flying normally or not? Either way, I wasn't sure what to exactly do with regards to a perk which enhances the Dash. Latius (talk) 00:09, 12 August 2019 (MDT)

So regarding Latias's human form, because this race bears no resemblance to a humanoid's shape, its necessary to allow it to affect all spells because then if the player uses the actual Disguise Self and Alter Self, they would only be able to make them appear like dragons, which would not be very useful in stealth or impersonations. Especially when using Seeming, they'd be left out while the rest of the party gets to appear like a group of humanoids they are trying to infiltrate, especially since Disguise Self would only last 1 hour while with seeming it'd last 8 hours. And I think these would be the only spells that'd actually get affected by this difference, which should not cause a huge balance problem. --Alearori (talk) 23:37, 17 August 2019 (MDT)

So regarding the recent changes. I have reworded the Latias's human form to work with only Disguise Self and Alter Self, thus allowing them to stay in human form longer if they have spellslots and use one of their known spells to do so. This should not affect balance by much because all the SRD races are able to use Disguise Self and Alter Self to appear as another human, so this is just to re-enable what the SRD races are capable of. Using the innate spellcasting, I sacrificed the cantrip for these augmentation to these spells for this effect. Then because that'd go over the Musicus meter for Latias, I moved the innate casting of Invisibility to the main race because both Latias and Latios are both capable of this feature in the movie. Thus the overall balance between all 3 remains the same. --Alearori (talk) 14:39, 21 August 2019 (MDT)

That is just incorrect I'm afraid. All SRD races don't have such a thing and moving a subrace benefit to the main race and buffing a subrace trait would definitely increase the score, in this case, it does that significantly. So no, it's not balanced by the meter. The score is also inflated above what is considered balanced by the meter as it doesn't take into account offsetting benefit for later levels, like flying. The current score as of this revision is at least 10. —ConcealedLight (talk) 22:00, 21 August 2019 (MDT)

+2 Dex is +2, Psychic Resistance is +0.5, Cold saving throw disadvantage is -0.5, Levitate is +1.5 with the future Flying speed it becomes +4.5, Invisibility is +1 so that makes the base race 4.5-7.5

For Latias, +1 Cha is +1, Modified Innate Spellcasting should also still be +1.5 because the cantrip is replace by a spell modification, and now that I nerfed the two spells to once per long rest, the two spells should remain at 0.5 each. Thus the subrace would remain as a +2.5.

Thus, the race's total would be 7-10, since the other two stayed the same.

For the revision, I have reduced the walk speed back to 10ft after they gain their flying speed, to replicate the original idea where they had 10ft of walking originally, and giving them a hover speed which turned into a flying speed. Thus Levitate which was originally 1.5, gives 30ft flying which is +3 but subtracts 20ft walking which -2 to get to a total of 1.5-2.5.

Also, because there are no canon examples of them making others invisible, I also nerfed the invisibility feature to only be able to target themselves. So the feature should be worth slightly less with this modification. Thus the base race's total should be 4.5-5.5 and then plus the subraces will make the total is 7-8, which is close to the target of 6-7.

Also, I believe the point of homebrew is to make it so that it can exist, instead of limiting to what already exist. Because the Latios's Sight Sharing feature is not a racial feature in SRD either, yet you do not seem to have any problems with that.

So I believe it should be possible to trade a unlimited usage spell such as a cantrip for the augmentation for two spells because the augmentation gives the player back the ability to use Disguise Self and Alter Self to appear as a humanoid, which is what Disguise Self and Alter Self would be able to do for any SRD race if they had the spell. This version you made also made it impossible for Disguise Self and Alter Self to be used for what the spell is normally used for, which is to disguise themselves as other people. Which makes the feature near useless since even the Firbolgs can use Disguise Self to appear as humanoids that are not themselves if they were that race. And in canon, Latias in the movie turned herself into a human girl who she was friends with and thus is not a human version of herself.

Also, I do not quite see the balance problem with letting a trait be able to augment two spells to let Latias do what the SRD races could do if they had these two spells. Like, if we replaced Tiefling's Infernal Legacy with this feature, since they're already a humanoid, the first part of this feature is useless to them, and they get a 1st and 2nd level spell and lose out on their bonus cantrip. And if we replace the Filbolg's Firbolg Magic with this feature, they basically just get regular Disguise Self and Alter Self without allowing the Disguise Self let them become 3ft shorter.

Also, since the innate spellcasting's Alter Self is limited to only the Change Appearance option, it doesn't give this race the ability to gain natural weapons nor the aquatic adaptation to give the ability to breathe underwater and swim speed when they would use the real Alter Self. Thus it doesn't give them those extra bonuses that Alter Self would normally additionally give to the player. --Alearori (talk) 23:07, 21 August 2019 (MDT)

Firebolg's trait description is more in line with that of the original spell's (just an extra 2 feet shorter, not extending non existent limbs or anything). This one the other hand gives them legs where they have none (which I guess is like if you wanted to change the body shape, though they do have "stubby" feet), which is out of the spell's constraints, I think is the dissonance here. At this point, I'd say the wording for being able to polymorph is less contentious and more in line with 5e standard since when Latias is in human form, she never really does anything a Latias can. And this is including the movie and manga I think.--Yanied (talk) 07:03, 22 August 2019 (MDT)

This modification is also in line with the original spell, since I'm just adding a body shape, which the spell would allow. And its the shape of a humanoid, so any SRD race would also be able to use this shape without this text, so it doesn't add anything game breaking that a SRD race wouldn't already be able to do. Also, Polymorph is 4th level spell and is incredibly more powerful than Disguise Self and Alter Self since it also gives a extra pool of hit points.

Actually, a few homebrew races have a trait that allows them to polymorph into a specific form, which is why it is balanced. Like the hengeyokai race. As for the disguise self spell, I wouldn't know how far you could stretch "basic arrangement of limbs." For alter self this is more plausible.--Yanied (talk) 08:37, 22 August 2019 (MDT)

Because disguise self is a illusion and its magic, it can go very far since it is just a illusion version of alter self. So if alter self can do it, so can disguise self. So it'd be the same amount of stretching as alter self. Also, that polymorph is very confusing when I first read it, and its also a heavily augmented version of polymorph after I saw your explanation since apparently it doesn't "give" hp, its more like the form has a "durability" that has to be overcome before it breaks, but any damage before and after it break transfers to your real hp regardless. So putting that into simplified text is hard and its easier to just use Alter Self and the built-in rules of concentration where damage transfers to the real body regardless. And it doesn't do what I would want this race would be capable of which is make a illusion, because in the movie, when the characters looked with heatvision, they saw her real form, which would not be possible if it was via polymorph. --Alearori (talk) 09:17, 22 August 2019 (MDT)

And now that I've removed the entire levitate thing to revert it back to what it was originally, that reduces it by another 1.5 and added the disadvantage in necrotic.

The disadvantage to necrotic is to also further replicate how Latias and Latios are vulnerable to dark and ghost type attacks in the game. So adding this as a debuff should also be appropriate, and necrotic is a common damage type, making it a even bigger of a disadvantage.

Thus the total score for the base race is now: +2 Dex ASI (+2), Psychic resistence (+0.5), disadvantage on necrotic and cold saving throws (-1), innate casting of a 2nd level spell (+1), with a future 30ft flying speed (+3) and -20ft walking (-2), the base race's total is now 2.5-3.5.

Since the subraces are still both 2.5 each, that means the total for the subrace and the base race becomes 5-6 which is now within the recommended range of the musicus meter. --Alearori (talk) 09:52, 22 August 2019 (MDT)

So because it'd be weird to just suddenly lose 20ft of walking, I reverted it back to the original idea where they only have 10ft of walking, and instead gain a flying speed with a height cap that gets removed later on. Thus the base race is +2 Dex ASI (+2), -20ft walking (-2), Psychic resistence (+0.5), disadvantage on necrotic and cold saving throws (-1), innate casting of a 2nd level spell (+1) and 30ft flying speed (+3) thus the base race's total is now 3.5.

Combined with the unchanged subraces 2.5, this make the race total exactly 6, and thus within the recommended range of the musicus meter. --Alearori (talk) 10:13, 22 August 2019 (MDT)

So after some experimenting, I've found that the Latias's Human Form feature contributed to almost nothing, because Alter Self was restricted to only the Change Appearance part, making it only shine in non-combat encounters when the players' wanted to go stealthing or incognito. So I feel like removing the cantrip for the augmentation of two non-combat related spells would be fine along with allowing them to recharge on short rest too. --Alearori (talk) 22:03, 10 September 2019 (MDT)

Dash Attack

I decided to split this from the main section so as to better focus on it. Anyways, here's the wording I originally used, which may need clearing up and/or improving:

• When using a Dash action, you can attack by attempting to ram into someone as long as you would have some movement speed left when moving into the same space as the target. They have to make a Dexterity save against a DC of 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus. If they fail, you deal 1d6 + your Strength modifier bludgeoning damage to them and receive half of that damage, rounded down to a minimum of 1, as recoil, before pushing them 5 foot in the direction of your movement and stopping in the space they originally occupied. If they pass, they dodge the attack, gaining the ability to perform an Attack of Opportunity, and you must keep on moving in a straight line until you use up all your dash speed or you hit an obstacle or someone else. If you hit someone else, they have to make the Dexterity save or else they take the damage, even if they are an ally, while you take the normal recoil damage. If you hit an immovable obstacle, however, you take 1d6 + your Strength modifier bludgeoning damage.

The idea is that you can attack while dashing with a ram attack, which would deal damage to the target, but would cause some recoil to the user. This is to give the attack a drawback given that it can be used more often than the Latios counterpart who can only use their attack once per short or long rest. And the miss has the target dodging, so the user wouldn't have control of their momentum and would be forced to move the rest of the way, which is another risk to using it. Although if you aim at a line of foes, it could end up working out somewhat, although the AoOs would be something to consider.

Latius (talk) 14:57, 20 August 2019 (MDT)

Refer to the Charge or Goring Rush traits of the centaur and minotaur in GGtR for how to take the paragraph of wording down to a reasonable sentence. —ConcealedLight (talk) 00:54, 21 August 2019 (MDT)

Okay, so here goes... I will admit, I don't have GGtR myself, but this is the best I can come up with so far.

• When you use your action to take the Dash action on your turn, you may use your bonus action to attack by ramming into someone. This is considered a proficient natural attack with a d6 damage die. A hit grants a bonus shove attack which you can take 10 with, but also causes recoil damage to you equal to half of the damage dealt to the target, rounded down. A miss provokes an Attack of Opportunity from the target before any unused movement has to be taken in a straight line of the target's choosing as long as it doesn't send you backwards. If this leads to you hitting a wall, you take damage equal to an unarmed strike on yourself before being knocked prone, while hitting someone else would require them to pass a Dexterity check against a DC of 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus or else you both take damage equal to an unarmed strike by yourself.

Does this sound better? Latius (talk) 14:30, 21 August 2019 (MDT)

It'd be alot easier to just have a fused version of the Centaur's Charge and Minotaur's Goring Rush but without the horns and hooves part, so it'd go like:

• Immediately after you use the Dash action on your turn and move at least 20 feet, you can make one melee attack as a bonus action.

It's simpler and doesn't require you to add alot of text about attack of opportunities and shoving. You can also look at the UA version but the GGtR version is a more buffed version since the UA's version is limited usage per rest. So this is also not limited usage to match that. --Alearori (talk) 15:54, 21 August 2019 (MDT)

True, but it loses out on a few bits. Although some of them are somewhat unneeded. The only bit that is would be regarding the buff to the unarmed attack, but with the downside of recoil damage. So I decided this might be best:

• Immediately after you use the Dash action on your turn and move at least 20 feet, you can make one melee attack as a bonus action. If you choose to do an unarmed attack as your melee attack, you can cause bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier instead of the normal damage but must take half of that damage, rounded down, as recoil.

Latius (talk) 16:46, 21 August 2019 (MDT)

Just adding on to this, but part of me thinks it might just be limited to this unarmed melee attack, which would make this into a Reckless Charge. Latius (talk) 16:59, 21 August 2019 (MDT)

Alearori version is my preference as the additions you added are unnecessary, characters can go an entire adventure without using unarmed strikes whereas monks will do it every session, therefore, there isn't a reason to really add this. —ConcealedLight (talk) 00:05, 23 August 2019 (MDT)

Well, maybe what it could do is increase the damage die by a step or two, although to a cap, and there'd still be the recoil stuff. Latius (talk) 00:23, 26 August 2019 (MDT)

Just adding to this - I think maybe it would increase by two steps unless the damage dice is 4d6 or higher, in which case it only increases by one step, or if it was an unarmed strike which normally only has a damage die of 1, which would increase it by four steps to 1d6. Latius (talk) 00:34, 26 August 2019 (MDT)

Having it be a unarmed attack with recoil made it not all that desirable to use. And this way, this feature doesn't diminish in use over the course of the game because it scales with the weapon they choose to use, so this can be used early game with a weapon that they decide to choose for their class, or a magical weapon when the player finds one. With the best this could do is with a greatsword, allowing them to deal 2d8+str mod instead with no recoil damage. Which is better than what you are suggesting. --Alearori (talk) 22:03, 10 September 2019 (MDT)

Well, I think it works well, although it is reckless, so I decided to make it that the player can't disengage for their next turn, making it a bit easier for attacks of opportunity to 'punish' the recklessness. I am thinking that it may bump the damage die up a tier (or maybe two) to show the increased force from the attack, and/or allow them to add their Dex bonus as well to the damage. Not sure which would be better though. Latius (talk) 15:04, 11 September 2019 (MDT)

Considering how Goblin's Nimble Escape is worth 1, half of that for Swiftness should be 0.5. Nimble is also 0.5. So whatever this Dash Attack or Reckless Attack does, it should only be worth 0.5, and bumping up damage dices are very powerful. Thus typically, race features do not bump up damage, because if it does, there's nothing to stop a level 1 Latius from using Dash as their action, move side to side 4x to do the 20ft of movement and then swinging cause it gives them a extra bump to their damage every turn. Also, the wording you added doesn't prevent other ways a player can gain a way to disengage and/or move without provoking attacks of opportunities such as the Rogue's Cunning Action and the Mobile feat just to name a few. So its not really a punish. --Alearori (talk) 18:45, 11 September 2019 (MDT)