Talk:Hyrule: Scion (5e Class)

There is no consisten rule in 5th edition that requieres a character to make con saves to not breathe or go without eating, such time periods are determined by ading one to your con mod. and this is the number of a time period, like 1+con minutes to hold your breath or 1+con days to go without food. --Rawkage (talk)

I believe you are correct, according to the PHB p. 185 raw, if you go without eating or drinking for a time, you just gain exhaustion levels and only make a Constitution save to avoid exhaustion when you drink half as much water as you need. Also, on p. 177 of the PHB there is a section under Constitution which says that "Go without sleep" is one of possible the ways a dm could have their pcs make a Constitution check.--Blobby383b (talk) 11:48, 21 January 2020 (MST)

-I think empowering the ability and shifting it to a higher level is a little bit of a problem, for once Nether knowledge is already a very powerful and thought-provoking ability for level 15 and apart from that the abilities of undead persistence are strongly influencing the play style and flavor of this class and granting that as late as level 15 has the problem of shifting a long established way of playing a character and taking an interesting role-play perspective away from lower level characters, I believe a good fix would be to separate the sleep drink breath and eat immunitys from the rest at level 3 and add the undead nature trait [Undead Nature. A (undead creatures name) does not require air, food, drink, or sleep.] to your patron transformation, which would also make a lot of sense when you really become an undead being through your transformation... A little later... After some additional consideration i found that a permanent passive effect like not haveing to eat should not be combined with an active on off switch, that only creates confusion over what happens when you end the effect, do you immediately starve or drown or die from the poison you ate an hour ago without noticing and if not can you end the poisoned condition when activateing this effect or when you are starving can you just peek into it for a moment and get a full belly. Aditionaly you could ague one could just stay transformed but that would just force one to overuse an ability that could otherwise be used to great effect in cinematic situations to ephasize or subtily remind others off the true nature of your character. Sorry but when i consider that i cant find any real problem with my original fix i just see no good reason to go with this--Rawkage (talk)

Spells Known Progression

"i saw that choosing a new spell when gaining only an asi would be more fun but for the sake of choosing new spells in accordance with newly reached spell levels this is probably for the best" --Rawkage's edit summary

Since a scion can replace a spell they know with a new spell at every level and there is no restriction on replacing a low-level spell with a higher level spell, the assumption was that the player would forgo one of their old spells to get a new higher-level spell at 5th level, 9th level, 13th level, and 17th level.

With the change it's possible to get, for example, two 2nd-level spells at 5th level. Previously it was only possible to get one at a time. Especially for a class with so few spells, I thought it would make that higher-level spell feel more weighty and powerful if you only had one of them for an entire level. - Guy 14:19, 22 January 2020 (MST)

I see your point, however this is still possible due to the fact that the exchange of a lower level spell is optional and it can be very frustrating when useing a magic point system to be able to use a new spell very frequently but being limited to only one especially when you have basically mandatory spell options that you would not want to delay but that are more situational than a simple combat spell like revivify or capture soul and still if you only need fire ball, you at least dont have to decide which other spell to give up. Also i cant really find any case in which spell progression is done in this way except for classes which prepare spells which is nit the case here.

Changes

Trying to actually use the Zelda content here is impossible when people keep making these random broken changes. 2A0B:F4C0:16C:12:0:0:0:1 15:52, 30 April 2021 (MDT)

Underwhelming

Rewriting this to get my point across faster. The Scion class overall needs a buff to make the other subclasses more comparable to Mask Scion. Every other subclass gets very poor imitations of what Mask Scion has. Their class at level 15 is capable of gaining 297 temp HP and plenty of powerful attacks via their transformations. Sword Scion and Poe Scion seem to get it the worst from what I can tell. I won't make several paragraphs explaining why Fierce Deity Mask alone is more than enough to make every other level 20 ability look terrible, but I will try to explain how to improve the other classes. Sword Scion needs a rework from the ground up. It should be customizable. Their focal point seems to be switching into other weapons, which leaves their entire existence in the hands of the DM. You could never see a weapon worth using and be trapped as a worse version of Spellsword for the entire campaign. Instead of the Sword Scion changing to fit their weapon, the Scion should change the weapon to fit their abilities. They should be able to have an ability to unique to them. The Four Sword splits the user into four, the Master Sword allows the user to permanently destroy evil, and Demise's Sword was capable of splitting into multiple different types of weapons. There needs to be some extra step that a Sword Scion can take to give themselves a unique ability. Their ability to summon their Sword Spirit to help them fight is just a terrible copy of what the Four Sword can do. There needs to be a damage increase with Greater Sword Spirit and Master Sword Spirit. I think it goes without saying that if you're supposed to be comparable to the Master Sword, you shouldn't still be dealing 1d6 damage. The final gripe I have is with their level 20 ability. You get the same properties as a Mask Scion with overcoming resistances, except yours are objectively worse. If you're not a Swords Spirit your ability isn't even worth talking about, and if you are then your great reward for sticking with 20 levels in the class is the ability to hide inside of your sword and be unkillable. This is at a level when realistically, anyone capable of forcing you into hiding is probably also more than capable of destroying your weapon while you hide and making this ability worthless. Onto the Poe Scion. Their static damage increase with spells is nice. It makes them strong casters. Their healing is also really nice both to themselves and their incredible survivability feature at level 15. Once again, their 20th level ability is just sad. 2 Necrotic damage to all creatures within a pretty respectable range. This is at most, good for taking out a town of civilians. I think this ability is ultimately really worthless, but I do think I know a good solution. Tears of the Kingdom has shown us that Bargainer Statues can turn Poes into weapons, armor, and other equipment. If your 20th level ability made you similar to a Bargainer Statue, allowed you to take the souls of people you've felled and turn those into equipment, this would actually be a massively interesting ability. In all fairness it's so late in the game that it wouldn't be worth waiting it out for. At that point, just go with Technomancer. I think instead this should be an entire class feature which slowly builds up to being its best at level 20. It would once again require a rework, but it would do a lot for this class that honestly falls short of the mark. The reason I didn't touch on Fairy Scion is because it's really the most respectable class in this list besides Mask Scion. It has a job, and it does that job very well. I can't really speak for Dragon Scion because in my eyes it really feels like it took all the best features of Spellsword and Mask Scion, halved their usability, and then put it in a blender. I don't think I could give a useful critique. I don't think Mask Scion needs a nerf, I think everything else needs a buff.--Spooks2222.

Balancing Scion

I agree with the general consensus that Scion is currently in an underpowered state. I think that to start, Scion should be given stamina points in addition to their magic points (as Oathsworn already has). There's definitely going to need to be changes to individual subclasses to actually get Scion into a balanced state, but I think this is a good place to start. --Woahluigi (talk) 17:47, 10 October 2024 (MDT)