Talk:Hyrule: Scion (5e Class)

There is no consisten rule in 5th edition that requieres a character to make con saves to not breathe or go without eating, such time periods are determined by ading one to your con mod. and this is the number of a time period, like 1+con minutes to hold your breath or 1+con days to go without food. --Rawkage (talk)

I believe you are correct, according to the PHB p. 185 raw, if you go without eating or drinking for a time, you just gain exhaustion levels and only make a Constitution save to avoid exhaustion when you drink half as much water as you need. Also, on p. 177 of the PHB there is a section under Constitution which says that "Go without sleep" is one of possible the ways a dm could have their pcs make a Constitution check.--Blobby383b (talk) 11:48, 21 January 2020 (MST)

-I think empowering the ability and shifting it to a higher level is a little bit of a problem, for once Nether knowledge is already a very powerful and thought-provoking ability for level 15 and apart from that the abilities of undead persistence are strongly influencing the play style and flavor of this class and granting that as late as level 15 has the problem of shifting a long established way of playing a character and taking an interesting role-play perspective away from lower level characters, I believe a good fix would be to separate the sleep drink breath and eat immunitys from the rest at level 3 and add the undead nature trait [Undead Nature. A (undead creatures name) does not require air, food, drink, or sleep.] to your patron transformation, which would also make a lot of sense when you really become an undead being through your transformation... A little later... After some additional consideration i found that a permanent passive effect like not haveing to eat should not be combined with an active on off switch, that only creates confusion over what happens when you end the effect, do you immediately starve or drown or die from the poison you ate an hour ago without noticing and if not can you end the poisoned condition when activateing this effect or when you are starving can you just peek into it for a moment and get a full belly. Aditionaly you could ague one could just stay transformed but that would just force one to overuse an ability that could otherwise be used to great effect in cinematic situations to ephasize or subtily remind others off the true nature of your character. Sorry but when i consider that i cant find any real problem with my original fix i just see no good reason to go with this--Rawkage (talk)

Spells Known Progression

"i saw that choosing a new spell when gaining only an asi would be more fun but for the sake of choosing new spells in accordance with newly reached spell levels this is probably for the best" --Rawkage's edit summary

Since a scion can replace a spell they know with a new spell at every level and there is no restriction on replacing a low-level spell with a higher level spell, the assumption was that the player would forgo one of their old spells to get a new higher-level spell at 5th level, 9th level, 13th level, and 17th level.

With the change it's possible to get, for example, two 2nd-level spells at 5th level. Previously it was only possible to get one at a time. Especially for a class with so few spells, I thought it would make that higher-level spell feel more weighty and powerful if you only had one of them for an entire level. - Guy 14:19, 22 January 2020 (MST)

I see your point, however this is still possible due to the fact that the exchange of a lower level spell is optional and it can be very frustrating when useing a magic point system to be able to use a new spell very frequently but being limited to only one especially when you have basically mandatory spell options that you would not want to delay but that are more situational than a simple combat spell like revivify or capture soul and still if you only need fire ball, you at least dont have to decide which other spell to give up. Also i cant really find any case in which spell progression is done in this way except for classes which prepare spells which is nit the case here.

Changes

Trying to actually use the Zelda content here is impossible when people keep making these random broken changes. 2A0B:F4C0:16C:12:0:0:0:1 15:52, 30 April 2021 (MDT)

Underwhelming

Rewriting this to get my point across faster. The Scion class overall needs a buff to make the other subclasses more comparable to Mask Scion. Every other subclass gets very poor imitations of what Mask Scion has. Their class at level 15 is capable of gaining 297 temp HP and plenty of powerful attacks via their transformations. Sword Scion and Poe Scion seem to get it the worst from what I can tell. I won't make several paragraphs explaining why Fierce Deity Mask alone is more than enough to make every other level 20 ability look terrible, but I will try to explain how to improve the other classes. Sword Scion needs a rework from the ground up. It should be customizable. Their focal point seems to be switching into other weapons, which leaves their entire existence in the hands of the DM. You could never see a weapon worth using and be trapped as a worse version of Spellsword for the entire campaign. Instead of the Sword Scion changing to fit their weapon, the Scion should change the weapon to fit their abilities. They should be able to have an ability to unique to them. The Four Sword splits the user into four, the Master Sword allows the user to permanently destroy evil, and Demise's Sword was capable of splitting into multiple different types of weapons. There needs to be some extra step that a Sword Scion can take to give themselves a unique ability. Their ability to summon their Sword Spirit to help them fight is just a terrible copy of what the Four Sword can do. There needs to be a damage increase with Greater Sword Spirit and Master Sword Spirit. I think it goes without saying that if you're supposed to be comparable to the Master Sword, you shouldn't still be dealing 1d6 damage. The final gripe I have is with their level 20 ability. You get the same properties as a Mask Scion with overcoming resistances, except yours are objectively worse. If you're not a Swords Spirit your ability isn't even worth talking about, and if you are then your great reward for sticking with 20 levels in the class is the ability to hide inside of your sword and be unkillable. This is at a level when realistically, anyone capable of forcing you into hiding is probably also more than capable of destroying your weapon while you hide and making this ability worthless. Onto the Poe Scion. Their static damage increase with spells is nice. It makes them strong casters. Their healing is also really nice both to themselves and their incredible survivability feature at level 15. Once again, their 20th level ability is just sad. 2 Necrotic damage to all creatures within a pretty respectable range. This is at most, good for taking out a town of civilians. I think this ability is ultimately really worthless, but I do think I know a good solution. Tears of the Kingdom has shown us that Bargainer Statues can turn Poes into weapons, armor, and other equipment. If your 20th level ability made you similar to a Bargainer Statue, allowed you to take the souls of people you've felled and turn those into equipment, this would actually be a massively interesting ability. In all fairness it's so late in the game that it wouldn't be worth waiting it out for. At that point, just go with Technomancer. I think instead this should be an entire class feature which slowly builds up to being its best at level 20. It would once again require a rework, but it would do a lot for this class that honestly falls short of the mark. The reason I didn't touch on Fairy Scion is because it's really the most respectable class in this list besides Mask Scion. It has a job, and it does that job very well. I can't really speak for Dragon Scion because in my eyes it really feels like it took all the best features of Spellsword and Mask Scion, halved their usability, and then put it in a blender. I don't think I could give a useful critique. I don't think Mask Scion needs a nerf, I think everything else needs a buff.--Spooks2222.

Balancing Scion

I agree with the general consensus that Scion is currently in an underpowered state. I think that to start, Scion should be given stamina points in addition to their magic points (as Oathsworn already has). There's definitely going to need to be changes to individual subclasses to actually get Scion into a balanced state, but I think this is a good place to start. (Edit: I decided against this) --Woahluigi (talk) 17:47, 10 October 2024 (MDT)

I can't say that won't help. I still think that there's a massive power-gap that needs to be closed, because right now it goes Mask>>>>>>>Fairy>Dragon>>>>Poe=Sword. I haven't looked over the Demonic Scion, but I might do that later today. Sword Scion still needs to have strict damage increases that keep it on par with the Goddess Sword/Master Sword. On top of that, both Poe Scion and Sword Scion have tragic capstone abilities. Poe Scion is far too specific and will only benefit you in very large fights, and Sword Scion in both versions is still horrid. You gain virtually 0 benefits if you're the wielder, and legitimately 0 benefits if you're a Sword Spirit. I just want to see a good rework of those two that allows them to actually excel in their own fields, because all these months later, Mask Scion still tramples on everyone else by being able to do everything they want, but better. Edit: Looked over the Demonic Scion. Holy shield-gating. I cannot imagine being the DM that has to deal with the temporary hit point hero. New order. Mask>>Demonic>>>>Fairy>Dragon>>>>Poe=Sword. Spooks2222 (talk) 08:21, 16 November 2024 (MST)

Pretty recently, I went through all the scion subclasses and tried to get them in into a more balanced (or at least, more polished) state. I do agree that mask is still pretty good, but basically what I did is split each scion into one of two categories: Spellcaster Scion, and Martial Scion. Spellcaster Scions (Fairy, Poe, and Mask) each get an ability at 3rd level to increase the amount of times they can cast spells (more magic points, magic point recursion, or lower cost for certain spells) while Martial Scions (Demon, Dragon, and Sword) each get weapon and armor proficiencies, along with abilities that make them good at melee combat augmented by their spells (fighting styles, charisma in place of AC or STR, etc). I personally think Poe is a lot better than you think, since they have access to unique spells like Capture Soul and Animate Stal, but I will admit Mask and Demon are on a level above most of the other subclasses. Expert Shapechanger is basically just Polymorph, but maybe its CR max should be reduced even more? What changes do you think would place all the subclasses on a more even playing field? --Woahluigi (talk) 13:23, 16 November 2024 (MST)

Also, Sword Scions have additional skill proficiencies due to their lesser sword spirit having its own stats, including abilities and skills. While it can't do much on its own, it can make skill checks, so that's something. --Woahluigi (talk) 13:35, 16 November 2024 (MST)

One of these days I'll have to make a "traditional variant" that resembles how this class was in 2018-2020, when it was just dragon/fairy/poe. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) - Guy 14:05, 16 November 2024 (MST)

Good Idea! --Woahluigi (talk) 14:15, 16 November 2024 (MST)

I don't feel I understate Poe's power any. It's highly situational. It isn't as self-sufficient as Demonic Scion, and it doesn't have the same level of healing as some other classes can provide at higher levels. The main turn away is mainly the fact that as I mentioned prior, it doesn't have as good of a reward for sticking all 20 levels. The wording doesn't state that you can pick and choose which creatures are targeted, so it's inconvenient to your party. A level 20 sage can just wipe out the army and end the fight entirely without damaging its own party, and without being a minor inconvenience to the enemy. I think it should fully embrace the support role as I said a few months back, gaining Bargainer/Horned Statue abilities. Like taking away a party member's Stamina to give them extra max HP and vice versa, or taking your kills and turning them into existing items (or upgrading them) for the party in a similar essence as a Technomancer-esque Scion. To address what Guy said: It would be nice if you did remake this setting in a style you enjoyed. I get you didn't want to make your own off-site variant of this, but I feel like if you've disliked the content on here for over a year, it wouldn't be the end of the world to re-imagine it in the way you had originally envisioned. I've already swapped off of the 5e Hyrule setting to instead use the Pf2e Paths of Hyrule created by Aofie since the quality and balancing there is very consistent, but it's never a bad idea to have more Zelda out there. Spooks2222 (talk) 15:31, 16 November 2024 (MST)

Due to Well of Power, Poe Scions effectively have 5 magic points per level. And although they give up Hit dice, they gain 10 hp on average from every poe soul they consume, which well makes up for the lost hit dice. This in addition to darkvision, telepathy, and restricted invisibility and flight. I don't think having an underwhelming 20th level ability is that big of a deal, as though it might be disappointing when just reading the class, actually playing it you'd send almost no time, if none at all, actually using your 20th level ability due to how 5e is typically played. That being said, you should be able to differentiate friends from foes when using it. And although the ability is a small amount of damage to a single target, its a constant source of healing that requires no action or resource to use. --Woahluigi (talk) 15:52, 16 November 2024 (MST)

The issue with that is that Mask scion sacrifices nothing, gains all of that, and has an exponentially better 20th level ability. I'm not denying that Poe is a good class in comparison to 5e classes, I'm saying it's a bad class in comparison to everything it's surrounded by. I'm fully aware you rarely hit 20th level in most campaigns, but in my opinion, this setting has a much higher ceiling and much better late-game play than traditional 5e from all my experiences as a player and as a DM. So while the 20th level ability may not matter in a typical 5e campaign, this isn't a typical 5e campaign. I don't think it's a small amount of damage to a single target. I was under the impression that it's all living creatures within the radius described. And while that's great for inconveniencing an army, it doesn't mean much when you could swap to most other Scions and just delete that army outright. Even if you included a throwaway like about it healing not just you, but companions (and especially undead companions), it would then essentially buff it into a Warlord position. That's still lower than other Scions by a fair chunk, but still not as awful as Sword Scion is in every way. Spooks2222 (talk) 16:07, 16 November 2024 (MST)

I definitely agree that Sword Scion's 20th level ability is perplexing. Maybe it could be changed to give you effectively a Simulacrum, which represents your Master Sword Spirit. Do you think that the weaker subclasses should be buffed? Or do you think the strongest subclasses should be toned down? --Woahluigi (talk) 16:12, 16 November 2024 (MST)

I think the weaker subclasses need to be buffed, because they don't accomplish the same difference in power that I figured it was going for. My interpretation was that Sage to Scion was aiming to have a similar gap as Wizard to Warlock, but instead it feels more like Wizard to Fighter with the lower end pieces. I think Dragon/Fairy Scions are the only ones to truly keep that balance. They're not as strong as Sages, but they're not weak either. They have a goal, they accomplish it incredibly well, and they do it without sacrificing accuracy or balance. I love it. However, Mask Scion slightly oversteps and ends up being on the same destructive level as some higher-end casters. My only solution would be that rather than just being able to pick whatever creatures you want to turn into, it requires you first defeat that sort of creature and then turn them into a mask like the Fierce Deity did to the Dragon incarnation of Majora in the manga. However, that's a LOT of rewriting. On the other hand, I feel that if it got nerfed any further it would lose the fun aspects like being able to transform into bosses like Ganon. To circle back to Sword Scion, the best thing that you could possibly do is to focus on the sword. Make the class revolve around your weapon being just that, a weapon. Not a summonable creature, or a pseudo-fighter, but a magical item that grows in power. It should be more customizable, allowing you to create weapons with effects that rival the Four-Sword or Demise's Sword. It should start off weak, gain increases to its damage die, and most importantly, allow you to inch towards your capstone. If I want a Four-Sword sort of weapon, it should start off only being able to create weak a single weak copy with few options in terms of any actions. As I level, it should be able to summon more versions which can accomplish more. The weapon and its properties should be the focal point. More unique abilities that are fully realized at the 20th level. Sealing the darkness, creating 4 copies of yourself, whatever the Scion wants. That's my favorite vision of that class. Because right now, both capstones feel like they don't respect the person who invested all 20 levels. Hiding inside of your weapon if you're a Sword Spirit, and handing off your sword to somebody else are not great 20th level options. Spooks2222 (talk) 16:31, 16 November 2024 (MST)

Alright I just went through Poe, Sword, Demon, and Mask and rebalanced a lot of their features. They should be in a much better spot now. --Woahluigi (talk) 15:10, 17 November 2024 (MST)

Damage is a little higher. Essentially still has all the same issues I had beforehand, and the 20th level ability goes against the whole "it's your sword, use it how you want" thing I had described. I still just wish you designed your weapon to be its own legendary weapon instead of just summoning a creature. Also not the biggest fan of the level 15 ability At the end of the day, you're still going to toss out your entire class by just grabbing a superior magic item. I actually think Poe isn't too terrible now, since it can actually do some nice features. I'd still say Fairy takes priority over it because Fairy has much better healing options. Definitely in a much better place than it was now though. I'd say the new order is Mask>>>>>>>Fairy>Dragon>>>Poe>>Sword. Sword Scion itself just needs a ground up rework that revolves around you designing your own legendary weapon that awakens over time like all the other legendary swords.

See, my problem with that is that to make it work you'd need an extensive system that already exists for creating custom magic items. Something like what 3.5e has. Unfortunately, 5e doesn't have that, so you'd either have to make it yourself (Way too much work in my opinion) or you'd have to create a very detailed system for making custom legendary items, all for a single subclass. Its just much more complicated than I think any 5e subclass ought to be. The current solution places Sword Scion in line with Dragon and Mask, being that they get powerful abilities at 20th level that cost 10 magic points and last a minute. I do think I'll add in a caveat for Greater Sword Spirit that allows you to use a magical weapon in place of one of the base effects. That way you're not chained hand and fist to the equivalent of an uncommon magic item, even if you find a better one during your adventure. I won't be reworking the entire class though, I kind of like the state its in. --Woahluigi (talk) 15:50, 17 November 2024 (MST)

I can see why you wouldn't want to go through with it. I don't think it needs to be that overcomplicated of a system. You'd pick minor cantrips to add to your sword, and then you'd get a template for a special ability that you can expand on. A weapon that can have additional effects like sealing and higher damage towards certain alignments, a weapon that allows the user to multiply themselves, other sorts of weapons like that. If I bothered to put any more thought into it, it would be something really easy to write up. At the current time I guess it works? I still feel that in the long run, it'll be better to just play a Fighter who can get way better action economy and ability choices since you'll end up swapping to higher tier magic weapons as either class at some point. At least when you're doing it as a Fighter you can get a much higher martial output. Spooks2222 (talk) 16:03, 17 November 2024 (MST)

Well, there are definitely pros for either class. I think the main benefit of being a Sword Scion is that you're a half caster with 3 magic points per level. And if a Sword Scion so chooses, it can use its Charisma for spellcasting, attacks, and AC. Both classes certainly have their pros, but I think sword scion will have spikes of power/damage from their spells, while fighters have a better sustained damage output.--Woahluigi (talk) 16:14, 17 November 2024 (MST)