Talk:Drow Elf, Variant (3.5e Race)

Mechanics

If I were a drow and these "drow" would try to come up to me and claim drow-hood, I'd probably kill them on the spot. Either that or sell them into slavery with some illthids or keep them in servitude. Not that I don't like the build, though; it's because they're weaker than the drow, which is a race based on one's strength. Lolth would probally end up turning them into a Drider-- Flession 05:43, 24 May 2007 (MDT)

The only things I see missing are the proficiency with the short sword and the spell resistance. Hated and Feared seems to be out of place from a mechanical view since most Drow are not likely to do anything but Intimidate when it comes to other races and Charisma checks, and anyone doing business with them would have to play by the Drow rules, anyway. Additionally, this build lacks a level adjustment (normally +2). In every other way (excluding the flavor text; I did not review anything but the racial traits) these Drow are identical to the drow found in the MMI and the recently published Drow of the Underdark. --Rakankou 11:58, 24 May 2007 (MDT)

Not true. If you look at the spell-like abilities, the caster level is CL -1. That reduces it, I guess...although the caster level can increase over time instead of making it as if a 1st level caster did it. Might I suggest looking at the Races of Faerun book under Half-Drow and starting from there instead of the SRD one? -- Flession 13:35, 24 May 2007 (MDT)

This is true; I must have glossed over that. I don't happen to have Races of Faerûn (would have to borrow it), so I am unable to evaluate this race from the half-drow perspective that you have proposed; in any case, Drow of the Underdark gives the caster level of a Drow's spell-like abilities as equal to the Drow's class level, as does the Monster Manual v3.5. This reduction in caster level, however, seems too trivial to negate the +2 LA, even with Hated and Feared (which, I would think, would probably benefit a Drow making Intimidate checks). --Rakankou 14:22, 24 May 2007 (MDT)

I think you are missing the point. These are VARIANT drow, for use in campains involving players who get annoyed by the +2 LA, and not in the same campaign as the normal rules for drow (otherwise everything goes wierd). Every drow in your campaign follows these rules or none. Hated and feared is from the point of veiw of NON-DROW. Ever tried bluffing to people who dont trust you? I havent (I am not drow) but I bet that it makes things harder. I admit, the rule needs something for intimidate, but ever tried making a variant of drow without the +2 LA that doesnt change them too much? it is not easy. If you can think of some more diadvantages that puts them closer to being a ballanced +0 LA, then add it (if it fits in with the drow).

Caster Level ECL-1? oops that was an accident. It was supposed to be CL 1. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.65.210.126 (talk • contribs) 04:54, 27 May 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

If the intent is to make the drow without the level adjustment then you merely need to balance out their considerable powers with additional drawbacks; for example, you might increase the penalties of the Drow's light blindness, decrease their range of darkvision, or remove some of their racial traits altogether. Continuing on that thread, you may want to consider in stead of the -4 penalty to all charisma-based checks for Hated and Feared, simply say that any non-drow NPC's beginning attitude will be Unfriendly (or, in particularly difficult campaigns, Hostile).

Drow of the Underdark provides a racial class progression for Drow (this concept was advanced first in Unearthed Arcana, if I remember correctly), which virtually removes the level adjustment of the Drow; this, however, is merely to allow players to roll first-level drow characters rather than ECL 3. Personally, I feel that the level adjustments involved by adopting an unusual race or template keeps players more in check when creating their characters. However, since you aim to remove the LA of the race, I agree that this variant still needs some more adjusting. I think it's probably been reduced from LA +2 to LA +1 by this point. --Rakankou 18:13, 27 May 2007 (MDT)

I have made those changes, thanks they where very helpful. I had already increased the light blindness penalty (no-one has noticed, I think), it has always been 2 rounds blinded, -2 to attack rolls, etc. in this varient rather than the normal 1 round blinded, -1 to attack rolls. It is very difficult to spot this difference...

Thanks for the advice, please let me know if it needs more. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.65.210.126 (talk • contribs) 09:57, 29 May 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

What I do not understand is how this race can be balanced at LA 0. Currently they have +6 skill points and only -2; this alone makes them overpowered for LA 0. I think their ability bonus' need to be changed...

(These indentations are beginning to get silly) I still favor the Hostility of non-drow NPCs (not that dorw NPCs probably wouldn't be hostile, anyway) to help balance things out a little. Additionally, you may wish to consider putting a penalty on their strength to help balance out their considerable stat bonuses. Additionally, though it's probably not really been done before, perhaps you should penalize their skill points as well. Perhaps say, "All drow suffer a -1 penalty to skill points at each level (-4 at first, minimum 1) because of the harsh and unencouraging environment they lived in during youth." --Rakankou 12:16, 29 May 2007 (MDT)

(you are right, the indentations are getting silly). I have made some more changes, hopefully it will soon be ballanced and viable to play. I also removed their feat at 1st level, though I am not entirely shure that it was a good idea. Let me know if you don't think it is. Just to let you know, I am testing out the rules for real, in a campaign and they don't seem to overballanced (although one player is a bugbear warblade and this might affect things slightly).

I think it is better now, even though I do not think that the "no feat at first level" counters the ability bonus' all the way. The reason I am not sure that is is balanced is because some epic feats give ability bonus, and these epic feats only give +1 to an ability... However, I do think it most likely is playable, however it could still be made a little worse. --Green Dragon 21:39, 30 May 2007 (MDT)

What do you suggest I do? I think it is definatly mostly playable, though prahaps it needs a slight amount of tuning. I cannot think what else I can penalise it on though. I could increase the Con penalty, or penalise another ability, but I want to avoid that if I can. I think it is fine for the moment though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.65.210.126 (talk • contribs) 11:09, 31 May 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

First off I would recommend that you become a user on D&D Wiki (:)) then I would recommend to get rid of the racial proficiencies that this race gets... That should hopefully balance this out. However, if you do not want to, it should still be playable. I really would not worry about it too much. --Green Dragon 00:44, 1 June 2007 (MDT)

I have done that and got a username as you suggested. Thanks! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sam Kay (talk • contribs) 2007-06-01 11:51:38. Please sign your posts.

Before we go further, are you sure you want your user name to be "Sam kay" versus "Sam Kay"? User names are case sensitive except the first character. —Sledged (talk) 14:21, 1 June 2007 (MDT)

Please contact User:Blue Dragon if you want it changed... --Green Dragon 23:01, 1 June 2007 (MDT)

I don't really mind what my username is. How do make the article say that it was written by my new username: it still thinks that it was written by a non-user. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.65.210.126 (talk • contribs) 07:02, 3 June 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

Change the uppercase 'K' to a lowercase 'k' to match your username. —Sledged (talk) 13:13, 3 June 2007 (MDT)

Well, I managed to get it changed anyway. Is this variant ballanced now? I think it is, but I am more used to wargames. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sam Kay (talk • contribs) 11:16, 11 June 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

I think it is better. --Green Dragon 19:31, 11 June 2007 (MDT)

i liked to use them with the charisma bonus. would it b OK to have +2 cha instaed of +2 dex Zau 06:32, 12 April 2008 (MDT)

When you play a drow, feel free to swap the dex bonus for a cha bonus. --Sam Kay 11:23, 12 April 2008 (MDT)

Alignment

On a non-balance related note, I'd change the Alignment from "Always CE" to "Usually CE". I'm sure no-one needs telling what the counter-example I'm thinking of is... 82.152.36.189 11:24, 29 May 2007 (MDT)

I would disagree, though for different reasons. The MM1 (v3.5) gives the drow alignment as "Usually Neutral Evil" and Drow of the Underdark gives the race no one alignment in particular (ostensibly, they are some flavor of Evil, but it is never explicitly mentioned within the mechanics of the drow as a race). Furthermore, I feel that the "Always" qualifier is unnecessary. This variant race is given, ostensibly, for player character use, so the required alignment for the race is more or less worthless. Additionally, using the Always qualifier makes characters of a different alignment (even a just single step on either axist) vastly less likely than a Usually qualifier --so much that a Lawful Evil drow (a rather plausible possibility in tne noble houses, where long-term scheming is common) would be such a rarity that likely only one would exist in an entire city.

However, without getting into an in-depth discussion of the alignment system (unless there is concensus to hold one), I would favor the Monster Manual's ruling over any others to hold to D&D canon as much as possible. --Rakankou 12:16, 29 May 2007 (MDT)

Hmmm...

Honestly, I kind of think that the negative skill points with the +2 INT is kind of redundant, because as long as the drow's base INT is 10 they cancel out.

No, because without the penalty, it would have +1 skill point per level (+4 at 1st level). --Sam Kay 09:15, 16 November 2007 (MST)

Note level adjustment

It is +0. this varient is to remove the +2 level adjustment. --Sabre070 02:32, 6 May 2008 (MDT)

Already Been Done....

You're a bit late to the party. The LA +0 "lesser" drow is detailed in the Player's Guide to Faerun.--Ddragon Necrophades 19:25, 6 July 2008 (CST)