Talk:Berserker (5e Class)
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Please feel free to re-nominate it once it meets the FA criteria and when all the major issues brought up in this nomination have been dealt with.
- 1 Berserker
- 2 Balance Issues
- 3 Unresolved balance issues
- 4 I love the flavor and aroma of this class and as such I will be throwing myself at this class till it works or I pass out
- 5 Feedback
- 6 Clarification
- 7 Strength from Pain clarification
- 8 Featured Article Nomination
- Battle Focus: What does "bonus to condition saving throws" mean?
- Strength in Pain: "When they are damaged" - can I pinprick myself to trigger this?; "a threshold of pain check" - what is that?; "a DC set by the Dungeon Master" - this is a weak design if it requires DM fiat; "on a successful save" - what ability score? "they deal additional damage" - on weapon attacks? spell attacks? everything?; "for the rest of the encounter" - "encounter" isn't a demarkation in 5e, this isn't 4e. Try "1 minute" instead. "This damage can accumulate over the course of the battle" - so if this is triggered three times (and my Con is 16), I'm dealing +9 damage on every damage roll?
- Warrior's Path: I can't see any features for these archetypes.
- Improved Crit: Weapon attacks? Spell attacks? Both?
- Bloodlust: The damage bonus is about twice that of a barbarian's rage bonus; berserkers get this and can have rage damage and has the strength in pain damage bonus. This is ludicrous. It also seems to apply to all attacks, including spells. Why would AC effect temporary hit points (I pick up a shield and I get an extra 2 hp?) The counter-attack doesn't use a reaction, so it can be used multiple times per turn. The "radar" doesn't have a range, so is this worldwide? Bloodlust does not have a duration, does it last forever?
- Leaping Strike: What action is this? What is the attack? What is "initial attack damage"?
- Conjured Weapons: What are the weapons? What action is used to summon them? Can I give one to someone else? How long do they last for? (Can I summon a whole bunch of them then sell them?) Marasmusine (talk) 01:28, 27 October 2015 (MDT)
I saw this class and tried to rework/repair it, may need some balancing still but at least answered most of your talk points. [[User:KukuSK (talk) 15:33, 4 November 2015 (EST)
Hi I am a really new user but I decided to rework/re-balance the berserker class.Let me know what you think of my balancing changes.I tried my best to make the class appealing and a bit strong as it should be,but not completely op. [[user:mike210294 (talk) 21:45, 8 march 2016 (MT)
- Battle Focus - 1) Use advantage rather than a numeric bonus (5e has mostly eliminated this kind of bonus to avoid stacking) - the end result is about the same (equivalent to +4 to +5). 2) Specify a few conditions for this to work with. It is overpowered to have to work against all conditions (and doesn't make sense with things like petrified or poisoned)
- Strength in Pain
- This might sound odd, but "enemy" isn't defined in 5e, and it's a bad idea to have bonuses based on damage that you take. I could arrange with a friendly NPC or player to have a fight with me, so that they become my "enemy". They punch me for 1 damage. We stop fighting, and I get the 1 minute bonus. This can only work if the bonus is limited to attacks against the creature that hurt me.
- "you make a threshold of pain check with a CON DC of 13." should read "You make a DC 13 Constitution check".
- Berserker's Call - again, drop the term "enemy". Does this work against one creature, or many creatures? Is there limit to the range? Do they have to be able to hear you? Understand your language? Also, if this is at-will, this is really powerful, imagine if you use this and then somehow make yourself unavailable as a target (by staying behind the frontline, turning invisible, etc), the target(s) have disadvantage on every attack for the whole battle.
- Counterstrike - Are your attacks made against the creature that triggered this, or can you target anything?
- The phrase "You can use this feature twice between long rests" is ambiguous as to when it recharges. Use the phrase in the PHB - "You must finish a long rest before you can use this feature again."
- Undying Rage - "Rage" has not yet been described. I assume it's a copy of the Barbarian's rage. I wish it were something else. This whole thing is way too similar to a Barbarian, you could just make it a set of alternative Barbarian class features and archetypes.
- Conqueror's Howl - "whenever you kill an enemy" should be "when you drop a creature to 0 hit points".
- I'll look at the archetypes another time. Marasmusine (talk) 03:58, 9 March 2016 (MST)
Neppermint: So the class is a mess. I agree with Marasmusine on most of his points.
- The biggest problem is the rage. In order to separate the class from actual barbarians, I propose Berserkers have an ability similar but different to rage. Since Frenzy is already a barbarian archetype ability, I suggest Bloodlust. Here are a couple ideas I had about how it might work.
- Bloodlust - When entering a bloodlust, a Berserker gains a number of temporary hit points equal to their Constitution Modifier x Berserker levels. While in a Bloodlust, Berserkers have resistance damage caused by an area of effect (wording?). When a Berserker deals damage to a creature that attacked the Berserker since the end of his last turn, he deals additional damage equal to his Constitution Modifier.
- Bloodlust - When entering a Bloodlust, a Berserker gains a number of temporary hitpoints equal to their Constitution Modifier x Berserker levels. While in a Bloodlust, Berserkers have advantage on saving throws against area of effects (wording?). When a Berserker deals damage to a creature that attacked the Berserker since the end of his last turn, he deals additional damage equal to his Constitution Modifier.
- The other trait that I think will separate Berserker's from the Barbarians are the Shouts and Howls, and give them earlier. I have two thoughts on how to limit these.
- The shouts or howls are limited by number of uses and can't be used again until after a short rest.
- the creatures effected by a shout or howl cannot be effected by the same howl until after a short rest.
- Additionally, the archetypes are not distinct enough.
- Both archetypes gain increased speed
- Both archetypes gain a way to attack in response to being hit. As part of the Fenrir Frenzy, and Gauntlet's Revenging Strike.
- Despite Fenrir being described as the damage archetype, Gauntlet gets conjured weapons, leap attack, and superior crit.
- Gauntlet is describes as being neigh-unkillable, but has little to back this up.
- my suggestion is this
- The Follower of Fenrir should focus on taking down targets and scaring enemies.
- The follower of the Gauntlet should focus on distracting the enemies from his allies, and boosting ally morale.
mike210294: Okay I read the feed back, and this is now my second attempt at reworking/re-balancing this class. Tell me what you think. [[user:mike210294 (talk) 14:33, 11 march 2016 (MST)
spell29: This class seems much too similar to Barbarian in my opinion, even with the changes implemented. While it may work for groups without a barbarian, it will likely cheapen a barbarian's features and make the class less unique when the two are used in conjunction.
- Unarmored defense should be changed to using different modifiers if not changed to something else entirely. Charisma + Con modifiers, perhaps, to signify the willpower and determination needed.
- Conjured weapons seems too strong, and basically doubles the amount of damage you deal without restricting usage as much as I feel is necessary. And it goes even FARTHER at higher levels, making it seem much too OP.
- Combat is Life seems to similar to the Barbarian's Feral Instinct; something that has nothing to do with initiative would be better.
- Valhalla's Might is such a rip-off of Primal Champion that it is absolutely unforgivable. Classes should have something unique and distinct at level 20 that represents all the features and skills they've worked for up to that point, and this just screams "barbarian" instead of "berserker".
- Wolf's Frenzy is too similar Totem Barbarian's feature Totem Spirit: Eagle, and Totem Spirit: Wolf. Regular Barbarians only get one of these, and yet this class is giving you both along with knocking targets prone, etc. Much too powerful.
- Wolf's Agility is similar to the Barbarian's Fast Movement feature.
- Wolf's Bite is basically the exact same as the Barbarian's extra damage while raging, but starts out more powerful at a d4 when Barbarians only get a +2 at that level.
- Bloodlust is not restrictive enough. Regular rage ends if you don't attack that turn or take damage, bloodlust should as well.
- Avenging Strike is WAY too OP for the level you obtain it at. Berserker Barbarians get the same feature at level 14, and Berserkers obtain this at level 3? Really, really bad idea, way too OP.
- Blood Tap is too long a duration. At minimum, temporary HP should fade if Bloodlust ends.
- Sated Fury is too similar to Barbarian's Relentless Rage.
Mortimmer: Just a few quick questions on this as I'm not seeing them called out in the main page or discussions so far. Bear in mind that most of these will be for Path of Atlas as that is the one that more interests me due to playstyle.
- Frenzy/Bloodlust have that nice chart saying how many uses you get but neglects how you get more uses, do they recharge on a long rest as standard or use some other arbitrary means to recharge?
- Frenzy states that you cannot cast or concentrate on spells for the duration, does Bloodlust have this same stipulation as well?
- Bloodlust does not have a listed duration, does it just last indefinitely outside of the conditions listed? Is it 1 minute (same as Frenzy and Rage) or possibly some other duration due to Blood Tap being able to last up to an hour so long as the Temporary Hit Points are not consumed?
- Temporary Hit Points gained from entering Bloodlust, do these have any kind of duration outside of the standard until consumed or long rest such as possibly lost on Bloodlust ending?
- Dark Command's "taunt" effect, would it end early if Bloodlust ends or would it continue for the full duration as the effect does not list if the targets do or do not get to attempt another Save at the start or end of their turn like say the "frightened" condition?
I personally like the concept of the class as I just couldn't fully get into the core Barbarian class and what it offers but to me this feels like a decent attempt at a concept. I would probably enjoy making and then using a character with this class but with these few holes I'm seeing in the Path of Atlas side of things I'm not sure if my DM or even most would allow it in their games. Thanks. Mortimmer (talk) 18:45, 22 May 2016 (MDT)
A "trophy from a hunt is the kind of thing that would be in a background
Alright, so I made up a Berserker. Min/maxed the character for a 20 str/con build to maximize his potential for a lvl 14 campaign.
First off, Unarmoured Defence. Adding your Berserker level up to 5 can drive your A.C. up to 25 when the class is optimized. That is real high. Abnormally high considering you're wearing no armor.
Faded weapon doesn't really fit the class. It's the only "magic" type thing they can do, with the exception of the level 18 Fenrir ability. Adding additional weapon damage dice to your attacks gets to be just too much at higher levels. At 14 I was doing 6d6+5 damage without being in frenzy. That's one attack. At 11th level you can attack 3 times. That's a possibility of 18d6 on a turn WITHOUT being in frenzy. What I chose to do was rename the ability to Strong Blows. You focus extra into your swing to just power through defenses. The weapon you use counts as magical for magic resistance and immunity. I felt as though it for the class a bit better than "you call upon the void toncoat your weapon"
The extra damage dice that you can add to attacks get really out of hand. I nearly OHKO'd an adult Frost Dragon in 1 round of combat by combining abilities and actions that you can easily do. 6d6+2d10+5 x3 attacks. Just imagine if I had been able to add the extra prone damage dice from Go for the Throat. I did over 150 damage in a turn. Thats repeatable. The rest of my party (half of which are also playing homebrew) couldnt even come close to half that with crits, and that was middle of the road damage for me.
I took some time and talked with some friends and worked on the class a bit. I still need to bring it into trial combat to seen how it work now when compared to other Pc's of same level, but when I do I would like to send the PDFs with the changes to someone for a second or third opinion. It mostly entails reworking the damage dice and a few abilities. Im pretty sure that it doesnt break the class at lower levels either.
If I'm going about this all wrong, let me know. I made an account yesterday, and this is my first post even though I've been using the site for a while. I don't want to step on anyone's toes.
Thundahbeard, July 10 2017, at 2:06am Est
Balance issues for this class have been brought up to me by others:
"The two unarmored defenses in the game are 10+dex+con for barbarians and 10+dex+wis for monks. Monks can get this pretty high since dex is their main stat and wis is second, so you can often see decently high ACs without armor. Barbarians on the other hand tend to favor strength not dex, so their AC is usually much lower (around 14-16 in most cases). It's balanced prettt well with how much damage reduction they get while raging though.
They get damage reduction plus resistance to charming etc. without even needing to rage (the charm stuff is a weaker version of 6th level beserker barbarian from the PHB) all at level 1. They get to dual wield heavy weapons or upsize a 2H weapon essentially giving them 2x the damage from any other barbarian at level 1 which is broken. They get the stupidly high AC as discussed. At level 5 with a strength mod of +4 and con of say +2 which would be normal for point buy they'd have an AC of 21 or 23 with a shield. Level 2 you get even more damage from your already broken damage and there's no downside (like frenzied rage giving exhaustion for instance). It's also once per encounter not once per day like most big things. You can reduce AC of enemies for no downside at level 2. That's broken as hell even at much higher levels. Three hits on a target (which is made even easier dual wielding heavy weapons) and suddenly it goes from a hard encounter to an easy encounter. They just get great weapon fighting for free at level 3 which is made even more broken considering they're wielding two great weapons. You get extra attack at 5 which is normal but with the nutty amount of extra damage you get is a bit to strong. Then at 7 you get to double a weapon damage twice per rest which is insane. Assume you took an upsized heavy weapon which would do 2d12 normally now you're doing 4d12 with half being magical force damage which almost nothing is immune or resistant to. The 20th level is laughable. You get +6 to strength and con?!?! Normal barbarian capstone is +4."
- Did you find out about this from this reddit post? — Geodude671 (talk | contribs) . . 16:29, 27 July 2017 (MDT)
Unresolved balance issues
There are multiple issues, mainly balance, at the moment that plague this article. The concerns are listed throughout this talk page, but if there are any further questions, please ask them. As this article stands, it is a viable candidate for deletion. A concerted, big effort should be made to overhaul the balance on this article, at least, please discuss the issues on this talk page before removing any further improvement templates. If the templates are removed again without being addressed by discussion or major change, I will protect the page until its deletion date. Feel free to message me on my talk page, or below, if you have any issues with this. --SgtLion (talk) 16:20, 2 September 2017 (MDT)
- I have created a Berserker prestige class in my userspace here. As this page is currently, it basically needed to be rewritten from scratch, and I felt that a Berserker was more appropriate as a prestige class than as a base class. I'm thinking maybe this page can be replaced by my version, but I wanted to get feedback instead of just doing it. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email) . . 14:27, 3 September 2017 (MDT)
I love the flavor and aroma of this class and as such I will be throwing myself at this class till it works or I pass out
Some quick observations:
- Remove the image please :) I don't like having to scroll past an image to continue reading.
- Don't call it an "attack save". Attacks are one thing, saves are another thing.
- Bulwark: Unless you're using an optional rule from the DMG, characters do not have facing, so you can't be passed on the "left or right". You also can't know in advance if a creature intends to move "past" you. You would know this if an enemy leaves your reach, but that's what an opportunity attack does anyway.
- Counter Attacking.
- Be clear that this triggers on an weapon attack roll against you (I'm pretty sure it shouldn't work on a firebolt launched against some other guy).
- "Within 1 point of your AC" - does this mean if your AC is 15, this triggers if the attack roll is a 14, 15 or 16?
- You can use your reaction (not "spend") Minor quibble, I know.
- Why the AC increase? How long does it last? If it's just for the purpose of making the attack miss, this is unnecessary, as you already declare that the attack misses.
- Great Weapon Dueling Wielding. "when you are wielding two two-handed weapons in both hands," - good grief, what? Do you have four hands :) Okay, so this style seems to want to let you use two-weapon fighting with a two-handed weapon in each hand by treating them as non-two-handed. But you can normally only use two-weapon fighting if both weapons are light. You would have to take Dual Wielder feat just to wield a non-light one-handed weapon in each hand.
- Well, that's 1st level, I'll look at the other levels another time. Marasmusine (talk) 02:41, 10 September 2017 (MDT)
- fair, I'll just move it to the side.
- I'll change it to a "Berserker Save"
- Oh right, I'll correct it so that you can decrease a creatures speed to 0 as a reaction if they move within 10ft if they move towards you
- I've corrected it to a tempory plus 1 to ac for that attack
- I didn't consider the dual wielder feat, hows this? Does it bring it in line more or should I debuff something or buff it by saying you add twice your ability mod to damage?
thanks for the help 220.127.116.11 20:08, 10 September 2017 (MDT)
How do you feel about changing the Unarmored Defense to give the berserker damage reduction similarly to the 3.x barbarian? I was thinking something like "While you are not wearing armor, any damage you take from an attack is reduced by an amount equal to your Constitution modifier. You can use a shield and still gain this benefit." This would help make it distinct from the barbarian, I feel. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email) . . 10:21, 4 October 2017 (MDT)
The primary idea of the barb is its rage and I've already created unique substitutes for rage under both sub-classes, Bloodrush and Warpath each of them cause a sufficiently different play styles then the typical barbs run in and smash. Bloodrush require the player to manage greater risk for greater damage and Warpath allows for great fortitude in the form of temporary hp and supportive abilities. Also, when I was reworking the class there was exactly that kinda feature but it wasn't linked to con and was a set value gained at 1st level feature if I recall. I removed this because I believe it was unneeded and the class was strong enough as it was. In addition, it didn't scale and adding in that feature as a replacement to UD is not at all a equal exchange. I've already nerfed UD to be with charisma so I it is fine as it is. ConcealedLight (talk) 14:36, 4 October 2017 (MDT)
I've been asked to review this page.
- I feel like this class could probably be given proficiency with light and medium armor, and given the defensive style as a choice for their fighting style, allowing for greater diversity in builds.
- I agree with the proficiencies, however, I've created two offensive fighting and defensive fighting styles, with the defensive ones geared towards the AEir and the offensive ones towards to Fenrir.
- I already talked about this above, but I don't like that Unarmored Defense is based off of Con/Cha. I've commented on this before but I really feel like it should be based on Dex/Con like the barbarian is, or replaced with some other defensive ability like my unarmored damage reduction. This would either bring it in line with the barbarian or make it mechanically distinct.
- We've already discussed this.
- I can't tell what Barbarous Fighting is supposed to do; maybe try to word it better.
- "When you roll above a d20 for an attack roll and the value without modifiers, equals 10 or higher, you can deal additional damage equal to your ability modifier. The weapon you are using must have the Heavy weapon property." This should make sense now.
- Strength from Pain: "This is the creed of all berserker's [sic]." This could maybe also do with rewording; I think I know what it's supposed to do but I also think it could be made clearer.
- "Starting at 2nd level, when a creature deals damage to you, you can use that pain to fuel your combat prowess. On your next turn, as a bonus action, you can deal additional damage equal to half the amount you were dealt by that creature on your next successful melee attack. This damage only applies to the same target that dealt that damage to you. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier and you regain all expanded uses once you finish a long rest." How is this?
- I feel like the third extra attack at 20 could be removed, since that's kind of the fighter's schtick. The second one at 13 isn't as big a deal since it comes later than the fighter's second extra attack.
- Wasn't sure about this one myself as said in the encoded comment but when you put it that way I agree
- Is Rip and Tear a permanent debuff?
- Didn't notice that. Hows this? "A creature with natural armor is no longer under the effect of this debuff when they are healed to their hit point maximum and armours effected by this can be repaired over the course of a short rest."
- I would rather see Battle Hardened Endurance grant expertise rather than advantage, but that doesn't necessarily need to change; the average roll comes out to be about the same either way.
- Won't change it then.
- Unyielding Body: Does this mean that berserkers now die of exhaustion at exhaustion level 7?
- Yes, should that be specified?
- This class still doesn't have its capstone, but you knew that ;)
- Whatever could you mean? :^)
- Bloodrush: Can you dual-wield greatswords and engage in two-weapon fighting with them?
- Infinite Duress inflicts the inability to tell friend from foe. This seems like it would make a berserker of Fenrir irritating to play with. It also allows a berserker to potentially make 6 attacks in a round when they gain it, and 8 at level 20.
- Its a nerfed action surge basically and they only get 3 attacks now so I think its fine balance wise. I will change it so it becomes a deadlocked focus on killing the target they are currently attacking that's mental effects end when the target is killed.
- Seeing the Bloodrush/Warpath column on the table, couldn't you just make a pseudo-rage feature for the base class, and then have the effects of that pseudo-rage be dependent on your archetype?
I have to leave now; I will go over Aesir path and the rest of the Fenrir path when I return.
I reworded some things that I thought were worded awkwardly; the only mechanical change I made was changing Bloodrush's blood pool damage (and Brick by Brick) from necrotic to typeless.
— Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email) . . 10:53, 1 November 2017 (MDT)
- I'm back and have edited the rest of the review into my original message. I didn't really have an issue with anything on the Aesir path. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email) . . 12:22, 1 November 2017 (MDT)
Ragnarok the problem with this at the moment is when you resurrect in any mean and start with six level of exhaustion would automatically kill the player on resurrect. Exhaustion Some Special Abilities and environmental hazards, such as starvation and the long-term effects of freezing or scorching temperatures, can lead to a Special condition called exhaustion. Exhaustion is measured in six levels. An effect can give a creature one or more levels of exhaustion, as specified in the effect’s description.
Exhaustion Effects Level Effect 1 Disadvantage on Ability Checks 2 Speed halved 3 Disadvantage on Attack rolls and saving throws 4 Hit point maximum halved 5 Speed reduced to 0 6 Death If an already exhausted creature suffers another effect that causes exhaustion, its current level of exhaustion increases by the amount specified in the effect’s description.
A creature suffers the effect of its current level of exhaustion as well as all lower levels. For example, a creature suffering level 2 exhaustion has its speed halved and has disadvantage on Ability Checks.
An effect that removes exhaustion reduces its level as specified in the effect’s description, with all exhaustion effects ending if a creature’s exhaustion level is reduced below 1.
Finishing a Long Rest reduces a creature’s exhaustion level by 1, provided that the creature has also ingested some food and drink.
- Berserker's treat exhaustion as one level lower then it actually is, meaning they require a seventh level of exhaustion to be applied to kill them. See Berserker_(5e_Class)#Unyielding Body. ConcealedLight (talk) 01:17, 5 February 2018 (MST)
Hi, I can't spare much time, but I'll look at a bit now.
- Counter Attacking. Seems to be a convoluted way of saying "When you are hit by a weapon attack, you can use your reaction to gain a +2 bonus to AC against that attack."
- Barbarous Fighting. Try "When you make an attack roll with a weapon with the heavy property, and the die shows a 10 or greater, you deal extra damage equal to your Strength modifier."
- No feature at 13th level?
- Rip and Tear. I'm not sure what "Whenever two of your attacks successfully strike a creature twice and immediately after one another, on the same turn" means. "...this penalty too is equal to..."? Also careful with terminology (for example "debuff" and "healed" wouldn't be used). I think last sentence can be simplified to "The effect ends when the creature finishes a short or long rest."
- Repairing armor is really under DM adjudication. Since there are lots of ways armor might be damaged, you shouldn't have a specific rule here - especially as we don't really care what happens to the enemy's armor when the battle is over.
- Shouldn't effect magic armor.
- Battle Hardnened Endurance. This busts the saving throw modifier out of normal expected range (this is why 5e has the advantage mechanic), so I suggest having this draw on a resource or recharge. Marasmusine (talk) 03:25, 7 February 2018 (MST)
- Thanks for the feedback. I've made the needed changes. They gain their second extra attack at 13th level but I've added an additional feature anyways. --ConcealedLight (talk) 06:44, 7 February 2018 (MST)
Hi, I wanted to clear up some minor confusion between me and a DM. I'm running a character using this class and took the Fenrir path. One of the blood rush points is that if blood rush damage outright kills you, you make a death saves as to whether you die or not. I'm under the impression that this triggers when blood rush damage would drop you to max hp below 0 due to the wording "outright killed". The DM, however, is under the impression that the phrasing "make 1 death save instead of 3" implies that it triggers from just going to 0 hp.
- Hello, I'm the primary contributor to the current revision. You are correct, the single death save is only done if you're reduced to zero from your bloodrush's damage. "If the irreducible damage from this would outright kill you, you make a single death saving throw instead of three, on a success you are stabilized at 0 hit points, however, on a fail, you die." I haven't had a chance to playtest this myself yet so it would help greatly if you could give any feedback on playing the class. Thanks. --ConcealedLight (talk) 08:31, 6 April 2018 (MDT)
Strength from Pain clarification
Hi i was just wondering what the intended use of strength from pain is. does it only store the damage from one attack from an enemy or does it store all the damage taken from that enemy in a round?
- "when a creature deals damage to you, you can use that pain to fuel your combat prowess. On your next turn, as a bonus action, you can deal additional damage equal to half the amount you were dealt by that creature on your next successful melee attack. This damage only applies to the same target that dealt that damage to you. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier and you regain all expanded uses once you finish a long rest." — It applies to one instance of damage. So if I hit you for 10 damage with my first longsword attack and then another 10 with my second, and Geo hit you with a firebolt that did 8 damage. You could use a bonus action on your turn to deal additional bonus damage equal to 5 if you hit me. --ConcealedLight (talk) 23:45, 29 May 2018 (MDT)
- El_Jairo** addition
I find the wording of this feature very confusing. Let me try to clear this up.
Strength from Pain What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Starting at 2nd level, when a creature deals damage to you, you note done half the damage dealt to you as 'Revenge Damage'. On your next turn you when you attack that creature, you can use your bonus action to add this Revenge Damage to your next melee weapon attack damage total. This damage has no damage type, so it is not effected by any resistance. If you don't score a hit in this turn, the Revenge Damage is lost. For example, if an opponent has dealt 16 damage to you. On your next turn you can deal 8 additional damage with this feature to that opponent. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier. You regain all expanded uses once you finish a long rest
What I would suggest this feature needs to be to clear it up and simplify it:
Sweet Revenge Starting at 2nd level when a creature deals damage to you and you want to hit it back: keep track of the last half damage dealt to you by this creature. We will refer to this damage as Revenge Damage. On you next turn, if you score a hit on this creature, you can choose to use your bonus action to add the Revenge Damage to your melee weapon damage total. You can use this feature as many times as you Constitution bonus. You regain all expended uses after a long rest.
Featured Article Nomination
Please feel free to re-nominate it once it meets the FA criteria and when all the major issues brought up in this nomination have been dealt with.
I believe this race has the potential to be a featured article. I am nominating this page as a featured article, I've done quite a bit of work on it to bring it up from its previous deletion some time and recently looked at it myself. I believe it stands a good chance though it may require some polishing before its approval. As normal this page needs to be supported, commented, or opposed from within the community, and double checked for confirmation to featured article formatting and content standards by someone who will then let us know how well it meets these criteria. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ConcealedLight (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.
- Comment I'll review this shortly to make sure it meets FA standards. — Geodude (talk | contribs | email) . . 17:51, 28 May 2018 (MDT)
- Comment. How many features are activated with the Bloodrush/Warpath? All of them? Also, the subclasses should be toned down, since over 200 bonus hp, or basically a success on all constitution saves needs to be put in line with the encounter that the character may be playing in. --Green Dragon (talk) 09:09, 5 June 2018 (MDT)
- 5/6 for the fenrir subclass. 4/6 for the aesir subclass. None of the main class features. The bonus hit points gained is on par with the amount of damage a barbarian bear totem would be able to negate. Not entirely sure what you mean by "needs to be put in line with the encounter that the character may be playing in", could you reword this? —ConcealedLight (talk) 19:55, 5 June 2018 (MDT)
- What if the Path of the Æsir granted 3 times the players proficiency bonus as temporary hp (at 10th level, 6 times) and the path grants an extra attack? --Green Dragon (talk) 23:34, 10 July 2018 (MDT)
- By changing it to scale off proficiency bonus, the temporary hit points gaining is no long centralized on the class and rather the player. Meaning that if a player takes 3 levels in Berserker, Path of Æsir and the rest in something else, the number of temporary hit points would still scale if they leveled. 3 and 6 are also less clean numbers per say and as such, I have an aversion to them. Finally, the number of temporary hit points gained by doing so would also be significantly less than it currently is and would no longer be roughly equal to the player's maximum hit points(assuming average hit points each level). As such I prefer the current method. —ConcealedLight (talk) 00:18, 11 July 2018 (MDT)
- What if the Path of the Æsir granted 3 times the players proficiency bonus as temporary hp (at 10th level, 6 times) and the path grants an extra attack? --Green Dragon (talk) 23:34, 10 July 2018 (MDT)
Support Although there are definitely a few corrections to be made to this class, it is well made and of high quality. If there is no digression, then this may succeed. --Green Dragon (talk) 23:18, 10 July 2018 (MDT)
- I hope we can work to iron out all the issues and I've asked Geo and Blobby to take a few swings at this as I'd like to see some more varied content in the FA process due to the vast number of races currently in nomination and have been succeeded as of late. —ConcealedLight (talk) 00:18, 11 July 2018 (MDT)
Comment I've been playtesting this for a few months now and I feel it still needs more work and is rough in one too many areas for my liking. I'm out of time to get it fixed in the FAN time frame and I don't think an extension is warranted here. —ConcealedLight (talk) 15:13, 27 November 2018 (MST)
Things I noticed (I am new to this so sorry if I have done this wrong)
With Strength from Pain it does not say what happens if you make a successful melee attack against a creature other than the one that hit you, do you lose the extra damage or not; also should there be a time limit to how long you can deal the extra damage and what if multiple creatures hit you, do you have to pick one when you take the bonus action or do you deal the extra damage to the first one you hit.
With Rip and Tear it does not specify the minimum it can decrease the AC, it is assumable that the minimum would be their unarmoured AC but it should be specified
With Battle Hardened Endurance, do you have to decide if it is to be used before you make the Con save or can you roll, see the result and then decided if you want to add your Con modifier again
In Bloodrush it gives a DC for knocking a creature prone that was already mentioned at the top of the class features.
It also says "If the damage from [the bloodpool] would outright kill you, you make a single death saving throw instead of three" when it says "outright kill you" does it mean dropping to 0 hit points or instant death (can someone make a proper link to this page https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_SRD:Dropping_to_0_Hit_Points, I don't know how) because "outright kill you" suits the second option better but then you would not normally make three death saving throws; that happens when you are reduced to 0 hit points. This confusion should be cleared.
With Teachings of Fenrir it says "You have advantage on your first attack roll against a creature" is that in that creatures lifetime, in that bloodrush or each turn, should be specified
With Infinite Duress does the forced state of mind have any effect or is it for roleplay and do you have to take an attack action before you can use this feature, it is implied when it says additional but not specified.
With the temporary hit points you gain from enter a warpath it is unclear if it is (5*level)+con or 5*(level+con) but that might be me nitpicking
And "advantage ... while grappling" does it mean while you have the grappled condition or is it only to initiate a grapple or to maintain a grapple or to escape a grapple or all of the above.
- Thanks for the data, I've recently got around to getting on of my players to play this in my own setting so hopefully, that can work off the data you've given. I'll work through each of the points individually. —ConcealedLight (talk) 02:09, 6 August 2018 (MDT)
- If something doesn't says what happens then assume nothing happens and the rules apply as per usual. This can be seen in a number of spells in the game, for example, disintegrate doesn't say what happens if the creature passes their save, as such, nothing happens and this has been confirmed by a twitter comment by the developers.
- Actually it does, "This penalty can stack, to a maximum penalty equal to half your proficiency bonus rounded down." so if your proficiency bonus was 6, you could potentially decrease a targets Armor Class by 3.
- Fair point. I've reworked this.
- I originally wanted to make it have a mechanical effect on the player but that goes against 5th edition design philosophies so I left it out and limited it to fluff or roleplay. I've corrected when it procs.
- Corrected. The idea was that when your initiate, maintain or resist a grapple, you have advantage. The link links to the grappling mechanics.
For the second one, I was thinking that if your proficiency bonus was 6 and they had leather armour (or low natural armour) which is 11+dex, then the -3 penalty would reduce it to 8+dex which is less than their unarmored defence which can't be reduced, this can be important at high levels if you are facing a tanky monster that has 1 or 2 extra AC from natural armour
- Thanks, I'll apply a correction. Let me know if you see any other inconcsistances. —ConcealedLight (talk) 18:38, 6 August 2018 (MDT)
Here are some more things I noticed looking through it again but there is nothing major
With Ragnarök is it intended to trigger on any failed death saving throw or just when you die due to 3 failed saving throw, and if the first can it trigger when you gain a failed death save due to taking damage.
Also I think that it should give a bigger advantage as at level 20 it is likely that someone will revive you and so it causes you to die proper when normally you would quickly come back, at least it should be given a way to attack with range in case you were killed outright at range, like you can throw your weapon with a range of 120ft, that is just my opinion though
The additional tempory hit points you gain from your constitution when you enter a warpath is pretty much insignificant. Is that intended, In my opinion, it is not even worth making players think about it or that it would be better to add it to your level before multiplying it by 5
With intervention, should they get a save to resist being knocked back in the that would cause them to fall into a pit or lava for example? feel free to say that it is an intended benefit.
And what if it is an area of effect harmful action like fireball and by targeting you means they are in the area of effect, should that be changed or is that an intended benefit.
And it says "its attack roll ... with advantage" it might just be me but that seems to imply that the attack has advantage even if it had disadvantage against the original target.
I might be being pedantic but, with Mocking Bellow it says "must use their reaction to move as far as their speed will allow towards you and ... . This effect lasts 1 minute" does that mean that each turn for a minute they must use their reaction to move toward you and if it does, when does it trigger; at the start of their turn when they regain the use of a reaction or at some other point.
First, a completely unrelated question, when you take the dash action does it just increase your land speed or all speeds
I also just noticed that Unyielding Body means you can be revived after using Ragnarök, you are just crippled.
Can I change some of the wording of Mocking Bellow to "On a failed save, they must use their reaction (If they have one) to move their speed (all speed types) towards you and for 1 minute they have disadvantage on attacks against anyone other than you"
Also, a niche issue, if someone fails their saving throw against Mocking Bellow and they are across a pit or crevice from you, do they have to jump or do they take the long way round or is it to be left to the DMs
With Asgardian Reserve does it consume a use of warpath?
I think that this is the last of the issues I can find
- All speeds.
- That was the intention. It is like "If you were anyone else you would be dead, but you're just barely alive."
- Left to the DM as I believe my effects that do this do as well.
- Nope. It is rest based rather then resource and the wording is "as if you had".
- Thanks for lending your eyes again. If you don't mind finding some time to check out the Pyromancer_(5e_Class) that would be a real help. —ConcealedLight (talk) 23:24, 9 August 2018 (MDT)
- If you don't mind I'd like to hold on to this FA nomination a bit longer as I'm about a month into one of my players playtest it and I've got some concerns over the large amount of damage bloodpool's recoil inflicts on the player especially when compared to the other subclass's lack of such a large detriment. Since I'll be making an edit to the classes fundamental feature, could I have until the end of the FA process - 22 October - to finish testing. —ConcealedLight (talk) 01:18, 4 September 2018 (MDT)
- Unarmored Defence: Starting at 1st level, while you are not wearing any armour, your Armor Class equals 10 + your Constitution modifier + your Charisma modifier. You can use a shield and still gain this benefits. While a normal Armored based thing with charisma, as a berserker. Someone that from just that name sounds not very charismatic
- Fighting Style: Then comes the fighting style, eh nothing to say about a fighting style. The only one I can really say something about is Obstruction, a feature that overshadows any of the other 3 without looking further atm, As compared to most things the ac bonus constantly as a reaction is rather strong but nothing too major. Obstruction, I don't think it is required. As the ac bonus while nice, is not something the barbarian will have a lot off its most likely about tanking the hit correct? I do not think a new one is required. Perhaps Tunnel Fighter might be added for the sentinel feel of the last subclass.
- Strength from pain: as with this ability dealing with most cool bosses will be a breeze and with such a strong ability that only scales with the enemy, dipping only 2 levels into this class will give the user enormous power, As lets say this ability will be used against a red dragon's breath, the barbarian taking the brunt damage (Average being 63 fire damage) and because of this dealing 31 extra damage to his target for no cost but to take the damage he would normally take anyway, What makes this ability even stronger is the wording of the ability as it says this your next successful melee attack equal to half the total damage that creature would have delt Meaning that if you would be immune to fire damage there, you would still deal 31 extra damage for nothing, Now a couple of fixes would be, limit its uses. Con modifier for a class that probably has a minimum of +3 in their constitution is a bit much to deal that amount of extra damage, especially as from what it seems it is not their bread and butter, Now another way to fix it would be to make this damage of the same type as the triggering damage. However this might make the ability to underwhelming as most often a boss or creature with a high damage attack is immune or at the least resistant to that damage type too
- Rip and Tear: very simply a no from me, lowering AC for a creature until it is healed is very simply broken, sure two successful hits might sound like a lot. But with a party and singular boss this event would not be very uncommon and the fact that eventually this class can get off 4 attacks in total makes it even more common. In fact it might happen a lot and will be a hassle for the dm to deal with. I am not sure how to fix this atm, maybe a crit to play into one of the eventual paths, but even then I think this might be a bit too common. Might come back on it a bit later
- Battle Hardened Endurance: While I see the use of this ability, giving them an advantage on them is not too worrying and the player doesn't have to keep in mind another ability with a specific amount of uses. With advantage, it also is no guarantee that it will succeed (They do have a good chance) but with a 16 in con, perhaps a 18 at this point. It is just a simple succeed this saving throw.
- Breath of Battle: Eh? I don't think its too much of a game changer for a class with a low amount of dex anyway
- Intimidating Presence: Not sure about this, the last three while useful don't feel like something you look forward to, intimidating takes your action and in combat and fearing an opponent while useful, it is less useful if the guy who is supposed to take the hits encourages his enemies not to attack him. The UA menacing feat already overshadows this ability, and even the menacing feat is very low on the list of useful feats.
- Unyielding Body: This ability once more like the last 3 abilities doesn't feel like something you would look forward to getting, it is a very specific feat, something only to matter when encountering undead (mostly) if not, this ability is almost redundant
- Unbreakable Will: Eh, proficiency in wisdom saving throws, useful but you know nothing special
- Ragnarok: It is, eehm confusing to say the least. Sure a level 20 ability is supposed to be cool and intimidating, but realise that the supposedly tank can deal about 200 something damage with this ability. Even for a final ability that is a shit ton. As Tiamat (Her physical form that is present in the nine layers of hell) has only 615 hit points
- Overall Feedback:
Recommend reworking Rip and Tear, Battle Hardened Endurance, Intimidating Presence, Unyielding Body and Ragnarok. Perhaps have Unbreakable Will moved lower down the chain of abilities. Also strength from pain might need to be reworded slightly, as what about a creature hitting you multiple times --RedHawk007 (talk) 07:41, 14 October 2018 (MDT)
- Charisma is also a measure of willpower so it does fit beserkers, although it is odd that it is part of unarmoured defence.
- For each attack the beserker dodges, they can tank one more attack, as for how powerful it is, if you compare it to the defence fighting style, it is an additional +1 AC at the cost of having a reaction to make an attack of opportunity, so it is pretty balanced.
- That strength from pain will make bosses a breeze is an exaggeration because the burst damage won't be significantly higher than what spellcasters can dish out unless the boss/creature is a glass cannon, so it is not hugely strong, although being strength "from pain" it is odd that you can get the bonus without taking damage.
- The AC loss is limited to -1 until level 9 and doesn't get to -3 until level 17. So it is like giving everyone an attack roll bonus from magical weapons so it is not game breaking but it can be unbalanced with min maxing, however, the bonus is given to the whole party so it is unlikely to cause problems in the party so if the DM can figure out in which encounters it is overpowered and avoid them, then it will be fine. Although another option is for the -AC modifier to be removed if they get any healing or it has to be two hits in a row for the penalty to apply or give it some other limiter so the DM doesn't have to compensate for it.
- With how it is, the berserker is able to deal with conditions from normal enemies that would stop them from fighting which fits the class but they would still be vulnerable to boss's effects, a change that could be made would be they have to choose to use this feature before they roll the save.
- How does having low Dex mean that better initiative isn't game changing, advantage on initiative is always nice
- The advantage Intimidating Presence has is that creatures don't become immune to it once they succeed once, so if you really don't like one enemy you can constantly use this to try to keep them away. I don't know if that is the intention but it makes it useful
- Being able to ignore a level of exhaustion can be pretty useful, but there is room for more effects. As for the last 3 abilities being underwhelming, you've missed that there are path features mixed in there which are good
- Could add more to Unbreakable Will or move it with Unyielding Body and give another feature here but this is also when the proficiency bonus goes to +6 and you can -3 AC
- As it forces the character to retire after being used, the player won't want to use it until the end of the campaign, which the DM should be able to work around since they are already confident enough to run a campaign with level 20 characters.
- Thanks for giving feedback, is there anything that I am missing Babosa (talk) 22:24, 17 October 2018 (MDT)
- Thanks for responding I will come back with some more feedback and corrections on my previous feedback.
- Charisma is not the measure of willpower, wisdom is. As you have to roll wisdom saves to not be scared for most saves. Easily translating that wisdom is also your amount of willpower.
- Perhaps, but opportunity attacks at that point in time are not a very big thing anyway, unless a caster is stupid enough to not teleport away, or others not to disengage. It tends to just be a free +2 AC.
- It would not be a big deal if this class was indeed intended as a damage dealer dps type. But the fact that it can dish out as much damage as a caster while still being a better tank then even the barbarian is not alright.
- You got me here, I did not read up to half the proficiency modifier. Point taken.
- That might be a good solution, but a feature that makes you immune to mundane saving throws is just kind of lacklustre and doesn't make for really fun scenarios. Sometimes it can be fun to see the barbarian cough and choke on some weak gass while the fragile rogue easily triumphs it. Advantage would have the same effect to make them nigh impossible to get down with that, but still have the chance to fail.
- Yeah it always is nice, I didn't mean it as something bad. It's a nice thing to have, since this class doesn't focus on dex it isn't anything extremely game changing but still a nice little bonus. Albite a little weak for a level 10 ability
- True, but there is no range to it at the moment, so I can intimidate someone 2 miles away from me. But even then, the frightened condition while fun, really isn't anything impressive in this edition, they just have to remain the same distance from you from the moment they got frightened and focus other targets, something they would do anyway.
- It depends on your campaign, not many deal with exhaustion, and one level tends to not make a significant difference as your party would still take full levels of exhaustion. And another point for ragnarok I will talk about later.
- Perhaps, but even then both abilities together would seem kind of lacklustre and very specific.
- I mean the character will only use this if they would die anyway. But this with your previous ability actually conflict when brought back to life. You say that you come back with 6 level of exhaustion indicating you would die again. However Unyielding body would actually prevent you from dying in this situation --RedHawk007 (talk) 04:48, 18 October 2018 (MDT)
- Thanks for responding I will come back with some more feedback and corrections on my previous feedback.
- Wisdom is your "perceptiveness and intuition" so I thought the Wis saves for frighten are to realize the fear is fake and can be ignored, the reason I think Cha is willpower is because it can represent your "confidence ... and commanding personality" and for Cha spellcasters is suggests that Cha is their willpower, especially sorcerer where it says it is their "ability to project your will". Your thoughts?
- Fair enough, but I just noticed that the +2AC is only for one attack so limits it even more, concealed light is currently playtesting it so he should be able to say if it overshadows the other options.
- The beserker is not a better tank than the barbarian, bloodrush/warpath is roughly equal to rage and then barbarians have danger sense, relentless rage and then whatever their path gives them compared to Battle Hardened Endurance and a few other minor features. Then what if you compare strength through pain to paladins divine smite who is also pretty tanky because lay on hands effectively gives them 5 extra HP per level and they have healing spells. Does that make it sound better?
- Does the stack limit make it fine
- I prefer the immunity to minor stuff personally, but I can't say which is better in general
- Barbarians get it at level 7 and rangers get it at level 1 and both get other stuff with it so I see what you mean by it being a little weak, what do you mean by it being game changing for dex classes, I understand that it is very good for assassins but otherwise I don't see why it is any different between dex and other classes.
- That's not intended, I've just given it the default 30ft range, thanks for pointing that out. Frighten also causes them to have disadvantage on attack rolls so it makes them less of a threat.
- Do you have any ideas to add more to it and make it relevant in more campaigns?
- Maybe give advantage on wis saves and immune to charm and frighten while bloodrush/warpath
- Yes that is the idea, you probably be brought back to life because you're level 20 but you would be crippled.
- ConcealedLight, what do you think. Babosa (talk) 18:53, 18 October 2018 (MDT)
- I'm having difficulty following the conversation. I'd recommend you guys use the "#" sign as opposed to the "-" or "*" for your points as it will number them and we can just refer to each number. Yes, one of my players is currently playtesting a level 5, half-orc, path of fenrir berserker. They didn't take the +2 AC option despite their absolute lack of AC but I can see the point being made here though I think it is fine as it is due to - low ac class, it procs on a single attack, it costs a reaction. Unless an appropriate alternative is offered it stays. While I try to avoid features that harm the user for using it, a 20th level character should have no issue of getting their hands on a few greater restoration spells or taking a long rest. You'd be out of the fight long enough for it to be notable but not long enough for it to force the character to retire after being used. —ConcealedLight (talk) 10:07, 19 October 2018 (MDT)
- They're numbered now and it does look a lot clearer. In ragnarok it says the exhaustion is irreducible, I've always assumed that it means the exhaustion cannot be removed, is it supposed to mean that you can't decrease the amount you gain?