Talk:Apollyon (5e Class)

Okay, it only took me a cursory glance to see that this class in previous form would easily break bound accuracy with a Strength score easily going over 30 with the mechanics of the class.

• Erased the Death Surge column of the table.
• Heavily nerfed Power without Limits, but gave it an HP boost of d6 per level to sorta compensate for it.
• Removed the Strength part in Death Surge and gave the counter the name of Soul Counter
• Changed Soul Haste to instead give you bonus Movement Speed.
• Changed Deadly Succession to instead spend souls to gain an extra action.
• Changed and reworked Fury of the Fallen to Power of the Fallen.
• Removed the Strength bonus and flight speed in Awakening.
• Changed Soul Armor to instead give a bonus of AC to +1 and to give advantage instead in a soul expenditure.
• Nerfed Bloodthirst a bit by halving its effective range.
• Changed To the Blade to give advantage instead.
• Changed Reaper's Might to instead double the soul gain.
• Nerfed Explosion of Power by reducing the range and halving the damage.
• Removed the bonus part in Mighty Influence
• Changed the Reach in Force Unleashed and also removed its bonus.
• Halved the bonus in Overwhelming Puissance
• Nerfed Ruination by nerfing the damage, giving the ability a DC saving throw, and making the ability used once per long rest.
• Gave the class the ability to multiclass.

Any feedback on the changes are more than welcome. --DonMafia (talk) 23:15, 31 December 2020 GMT+8

Isn't the Annihilate feature a bit too strong?

The class is very well made and it really does fill the power fantasy of a strong ass melee class but i feel like annihilate's damage is a bit too high considering it can add an infinite number of damage to one hit and completely destroy someone. I know that this class is heavily balanced by the fact that it's soul counter is a limited resource and the only way to get it is to go and risk your life in combat but i feel like being able to do 18d12 extra damage after having killed 20 goblins is a bit too strong. Overall top kek lad nice class.

Edit: The ability has been changed by someone to do d8 instead of d12. The feature still remains powerful but it has lost that godlike status. Good change. Still very strong considering its potential but considering soul counter is a very limited resource that you use for almost all features of this class i guess it is alright for a level 9 feature. Well done lad(s).

The Eternall Newbie

I haven't done 5th edition, but from what this YouTuber said, this is an OP class. I might use it for a villain, but not let my players use it. It's just that powerful b/w edgy. --YellowAngel (talk) 08:30, 9 February 2021 (MST)

- Okay? We can't exactly do anything if you don't give us details. We'll be hard pressed to find said issues of you don't. --DonMafia (talk) 06:43, 10 February 2021 GMT+8

He pointed out how OP this class is. And that's Eternall with 2 L's, the extra L being for Lucifer in this case. I'd share the link to that video, but external links are forbidden. --YellowAngel (talk) 08:52, 12 February 2021 (MST)

Would you care to elaborate then? --SwankyPants (talk) 08:53, 12 February 2021 (MST)

Well, he pointed out how many of these abilities are OP, in what ways, and... again he covers it better in his video, but I can't post external links. --YellowAngel (talk) 21:01, 14 February 2021 (MST)

Oh well, I reckon the problems are less relevant now due to changes, see below. --SwankyPants (talk) 21:05, 14 February 2021 (MST)

I guess, though I still believe that this'd befit villains more than heroes. I mean, soul-eating is... less than moral. --YellowAngel (talk) 22:19, 14 February 2021 (MST)

Further Changes

Following critique, the following changes has been made to further balance the class.

• Power Without Limits - Removed Strength ASI and the weapon bits. Also reduced the bonus to carrying capacity and weight to push, drag, or lift.
• Death Surge - Removed the temp hp part from Death Surge and reworked the ability to get souls.
• Deadly Succession – Increased the cost to 5 souls
• Annihilate – You now spend 2 souls for a single bonus 1d8 damage
• Power of the Fallen - Replaced it with Knowledge of the Fallen
• Awakening – Halved the bonus and removed the damage reduction
• Soul Armor – Limited the feature to only be used thrice every long rest
• Bloodthirst – Halved the range
• To the Blade – Removed the 2 souls part and increased the cost to 3
• Undying – Removed the sleep portion and increased the cost to 5
• Reaper’s Might – Replaced it with A Party of Death
• Explosion of Power – Reworked and clarified its features
• Mighty Influence – Limited it to Intimidation and Persuasion
• Force Unleashed - Removed the Force damage part in the feature
• Overwhelming Puissance – Changed it instead to work off the modifier
• Ruination – Halved the radius and reduced the damage possible by making it roll for 10d10 instead

Any feedback on the changes are more than welcome. --DonMafia (talk) 15:01, 14 February 2021 GMT+8

Balance Issues

So, it's come to my attention that there is poor wording and other issues that kick this thing off playability a bit.

• Soul Counter is poorly defined. Given that 5e is less narrative-based than something else, defining something which can be a threat to you is just inviting table arguments over whether a mouse can nibble your toe off.
• Soul haste has no duration
• Because there is no cap on soul counter, you can feasibly make a ridiculous amount of attacks. It should probably be metered on the class table like ki
• Any effect that defies even wish is fishy (talking about the annihilation of soul bits scattered on page)
• Deicide is interesting because it is, flavorwise, incredibly powerful. Unfortunately, 5e does not use the outsider tag, and many deities actually do not have stat blocks. So would these bonuses also work on deity avatars? They are not defined in the same way, either. This is overall a sort of macguffin feeling feature that needs a more generalized and appropriate benefit mechanically. But because it does potentially fulfill its name by making gods a non-issue, it is thematically cool.
• Bloodthirst is contradictory. do you know the location or not? Did your sense dull? Also, why not have this actually only affect creatures with blood or something to make it interesting
• Explosion of power would be less overpowered if not for the super early and powerful removal of the strength score cap. This allows the usage to reach ridiculous levels for all the strength-based usage features. The DC is also high for low levels and stagnant for higher levels.
• Overwhelming puissance is redundant since melee weapons already use your str mod. Unless you mean double?

The removal of strength cap is significant on many features' power. It's a strange centerpiece, combined with the soul counter. There are also some small wording dinks (might influence might have swapped the scores) and abbrevs (feet, not ft). But overall, this does need a rework or some rebalancing.--Yanied (talk) 09:11, 25 April 2022 (MDT)

Power Without Limits change?

Hey PlatonicDragon here, new to D&Dwiki. I've taken the liberty to change Power Without Limits back to 20th level. It was apparent that it was changed to 1st level, and taking into consideration that the chart still said 20th and its comparable to a 20th level Barbarian ability. 1st level is the least likely place it should be for balance sake.