Talk:Amazon (5e Race)

How can they reproduce together if they are all female?

Nearly all the traits are truncated and lack flavor. Rock Hurler is vague enough that it can be used to break the game. 3.0 and 3.5 had problems with players taking advantage of the system to deal astronomically large amounts of damage (250d6 with the hulking hurler prestige class comes to mind) --MaxVertexZXZ (talk) 03:18, 27 September 2016 (MDT)

Does anyone have anymore problems with this or nitpicks even, or are we all good?

I've been meaning to give this an actual review for over three weeks now. I just can't seem to find the time. --Kydo (talk) 23:13, 12 October 2016 (MDT)

Well for nitpicks, the black smiting being about as good as Dwarfs but with more elaborate designs, isn't that pretty much the Elves style of black smiting already, but with more pelts?

Don't get me wrong I'm not apposed to them being good or even better then Dwarfs & Elves at black smiting, I mean with them being part Giant & social, I'd be interested how they are with Dwarfs & if they managed to earn their trust thru the years. ...Maybe the Dwarfs taught them when they've earn their reputation of contradicting what it means to be a giant? Ehh? Ehh? Again though just a nit pick, feel free to ignore me.

Why would they all be beautiful? Just because they're female? A CHA bonus impacts all social checks with all other intelligent creatures. Are females attracted to other females more than they are attracted to men because of their appearance? How does their appearance somehow make them more attractive to other sentient species, like goblins? There's a reason nobody gets the boob-bonus; if you think about it for even a few seconds, it stops making sense, as you realize that the setting provides a much broader context than the assumption which encourages such a mechanic. --Kydo (talk) 05:39, 17 November 2016 (MST)

I would just also like to say that the image chosen, though a well crafted image, does not depict an especially beautiful person in my opinion. She just has huge breasts and curvy thighs. --Kydo (talk) 05:43, 17 November 2016 (MST)

Well Beautiful doesn't always mean Sexy, I mean both women & Goblins can look at a jewel & be at aw. Plus I think it would be a good trait to complement how they get along with a bunch of other races other then because the original writers Society part says so. I mean if they're fine without it so am I, but if who ever put that in just REALLY wants Being beautiful & able to get along with most races to be a part of this race I'd like to put that into use.

I think they shouldn't be giants.They should be based off the greek goddess.(this would be s good class)

I could see that, although I don't really know if I could (If whoever made that a thing for this race is ok with it) translate the greek goddesses lore with D&D Lore. BRB after a (hopefully) Quick study.

Uh oh. They're large. Do you understand the ramifications? The other traits are also awkward. Insight? Constitution save proficiency? (If you pick a common "amazonian" class such as fighter or barbarian, this is a wasted trait).
Anyway, you can already make a perfectly good amazon by picking the Human variant, +1 Dex +1 Con, Endurance skill (or, sigh, Insight, if you must), a feat like Athlete or Alert. Pick the Outlander background (to get Athletics and Survival and other appropriate stuff) Marasmusine (talk) 03:34, 24 November 2016 (MST)

Review

Okay, I'm going to take a crack at reviewing this. I like the idea of this, but it does look rather unbalanced. I'm going to use the Musicus Scale to give an indication of how balanced this race is. A musicus score that hovers around 5-6 is the sweet spot, and lower is much preferred to higher. Keep in mind that a decent Musicus Score doesn’t necessarily mean a race is balanced, and a high or low score doesn’t necessarily mean a race is over-or-underpowered (although it might be a good indication). It's important to use your own judgment to supplement the use of the Musicus score, which is why I'm going into more detail than just the score.

Musicus Score:

• Base: 8.5. I valued Giant Beauty at 1 point; Musicus valued the Rock Gnome's Artificer Lore at .5, and Giant Beauty's benefit comes up a lot more than Artificer's Lore does. I didn't factor in the Large size, and I'll briefly touch on why later.
• Hardy Goddess: 2
• Warrior Goddess: 2
• Total: 10.5

"Ability Score Increase. +2 Str and +2 Con."

Most official races get only a maximum of +3 total to their stats. Only two, Mountain Dwarf and nonvariant Human, grant more than that. The mountain dwarf gets a total of +4, and its abilities actually don't mesh too well together, as most classes that benefit from the Str and Con increases, like Barbarian or Fighter, don't need the weapon and armor proficiencies, and most classes that benefit from the armor proficiency, like Wizard and Sorcerer, don't care about the Str bump very much except in very specialized builds. The nonvariant human has a total of +6 and no other racial traits. The amazonian, on the other hand, gets a total of +5: +4 from the base race, and +1 from the subrace (I'll touch on that later). I would recommend reducing this, to either +2 to one stat only, or +1 to two stats. Also should be worded as "Your Strength and Constitution scores each increase by 2." to fit in with the way the official races word it. I also find it strange that they don't get a Charisma boost, because that stat is often associated with how attractive a character is.

"Age. Goddess Giants reach adulthood around the same time Humans do, but can live to be as old as a 200 years"

Fine, but the way it's worded could use some tweaking.

"Alignment. Goddess Giants tend toward good or neutral paths as they get their morals from their Goliath side."

Goliaths actually tend toward lawful alignments. I'd recommend either changing it to such, or removing mention of goliaths. Also, the wording is somewhat awkward, though grammatically correct.

"Size. large or medium"

PC races really should not be a bigger size than Medium. The race design guide describes in more detail why that is the case, but in summary many mechanics become rather wonky. I'd recommend making them Medium-sized and giving them the Powerful Build feature of the Firbolg and Goliath. Also needs rewording to fit in with official races; maybe something like "Amazonians stand roughly between 7 and 8 feet tall and weigh between 280 and 340 pounds. Your size is Medium." (taken from the Goliath traits; if you're reducing them to Medium size the height and weight should be changed to match)

"Speed. Your base walking speed is 35 feet."

I don't like this. It makes sense that taller races would be able to move faster than shorter races due to longer strides, etc, as in real life tall people tend to be faster than short people, but the Firbolg and Goliath, which are a foot or so taller than humans, have the same walking speed as humans. Among official races, only the Wood Elf and Aarakocra have a movement speed greater than 30 feet. The wood elf gets it as part of its subrace features, and seems comparable to the high elf's cantrip and the eladrin's once-per-SR Fey Step, while the aarakocra's flying speed requires it to be either outdoors or in an area spacious enough to accomodate their wingspan, which limits the increased movement speed. You may want to reduce this to 30 ft. to fit in with most official races, but on the other hand, you might not.

"Skill proficiency. You gain proficiency with two of the skills listed: Athletics, Acrobatics, Survival, Persuasion, or Intimidation."

Not a huge fan of this either. Most races which grant skill proficiencies only grant one. The only official race which grants two skill proficiencies is the Lizardfolk, which on one hand does give precedent to races granting two skill proficiencies, but on the other hand is a race also thought to be poorly designed by some. Like the movement speed, you may want to nerf this to grant only one proficiency, but you also might not.

"Giant Beauty. Whenever you make a Charisma check against a creature that can see or hear you that's smaller then you, add an extra +2 to your roll"

5e strays away from adding flat modifiers to rolls, usually preferring to grant advantage, double proficiency, or other bonuses. Also, any Charisma check? How does your physical size make it easier to deceive someone, or perform on stage? Needs reworking, possibly to only grant its bonus to Persuasion or Intimidation (?), and also changing the static bonus to something else.

"Relentless Endurance. When you are reduced to 0 hit points but are not killed out right, you can drop to 1 hp instead. Can only be used once per long rest."

Why? This doesn't feel like it fits in with the feel of this race. It's not unbalancing, I just feel like it doesn't fit. Also, it should really just be worded the same as the Half-Orc's version of it.

"Languages. You understand and can speak Common & Giant"

Are they illiterate by default? Given that in this edition, even the Orc, which has a penalty to Intelligence, can read and write, this doesn't feel right.

"Subrace. Hardy Goddess & Warrior Goddess"

Why? You've made no distinction between the two subraces, and the fluff text also doesn't give any indication that there would be different subspecies of amazonians the way there are with elves or dwarves. This just seems unnecessarily tacked on just to have it. Also, not verbose enough to fit in with the official races. "Two subraces of Amazonian are commonly found in the worlds of D&D: Hardy Goddesses and Warrior Goddesses. Choose one of these subraces." Would that have been so hard?

"Divine body. You have advantages on saving throws against poison & you have resistances against poison damage."

Again, why? The dwarf's poison resistance makes sense because they're accustomed to life underground, where pockets of poisonous gas are often a danger, and food might often be spoiled. In such an environment, it would make sense that dwarves would evolve resistance to poison and disease, and by extension Stout Halflings' poison resistance also makes sense, since it's said that that subrace is distantly related to dwarves. This has no such justification. The name "divine body" implies that this subrace is distantly related to celestials, but a) the fluff makes no mention of this, and b) the Aasimar, the official race most closely related to celestials, has no such trait. Even the angels in the Monster Manual have no innate resistance to poison, except for the legendary Solars, which are said to be limited in number. So I'm just confused. Also, "body" should be capitalized, the ampersand should just be "and", and "resistances" should be singular.

"Great hurler. You are proficient with improvised weapons."

Okay, not bad. I actually like this quite a bit from a mechanics standpoint, though from a fluff standpoint, it doesn't make too much sense. Neither does the name. Also, "hurler" should be capitalized.

The fluff text:

From a fluff standpoint, the name "Goddess Giant" seems rather strange, seeing as they are neither divine nor giants. I would recommend removing all mentions of "Goddess Giants" and just stick with the name "Amazonian." Also, since this race appears to be all-female, you should probably make some mention of how they reproduce.

The Verdict:

I like the idea, but it's simply too powerful. I would probably scrap this version of it entirely and rebuild from scratch. Something like:

Ability Score Increase. Your Strength, Constitution, and Charisma scores each increase by 1.

Age. Amazonians reach adulthood in their late teens, and usually live to be just over 200 years old.

Alignment. Amazonians usually tend toward lawful alignments, as they inherited their outlook from their goliath progenitors.

Size. Amazonians stand roughly between 7 and 8 feet tall and weigh between 280 and 340 pounds. Your size is Medium.

Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.

Amazon Weapon Training. You have proficiency with spears, javelins, glaives, shortbows, longbows, and shields.

Armor Aversion. Amazonians have a cultural aversion to armor, so Amazonian warriors have learned to fight without it. While you are not wearing any armor, your Armor Class equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution modifier. You can use a shield and still gain this benefit.

Powerful Build. You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift.

Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and Giant.

This is roughly a 5 on the Musicus Scale if you value Armor Aversion as being worth 1 point (I do, obviously), making it about as strong as the Goliath or Halfling. It may or may not require some further tweaking, but I think it captures the feel of what we commonly imagine an "Amazon" to be, while being much more balanced than the current iteration.

--Geodude671 (talk) 23:48, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Just so you guys know, if in a week or so no one's raised any objections or given any negative feedback, I'm going to go ahead and replace the current version of the race with my revised one above. Geodude671 (talk) 00:45, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

I replaced the old crunch with the new one. Geodude671 (talk) 06:10, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

What if instead of Armor aversion because it's just plain pointless to have for a race, it's much better suited for a class than a race. We take something from Greek Mythos and tie it in to how they are children of the gods somehow? --Sterkx (talk) 21:44, 22 December 2017 (MST)

- I agree, also because these traits and descriptions have very little to do with the official goliath racial traits and descriptions - if you are to go with the goliath ancestry, there must be some intervention that made them so different... This could be a greek goddess (eg Artemis or similar) that saw something in the goliath race that she liked, and changed the genetics of a few woman to her own liking - making them a women-only race, longlived and more beautiful (maybe by magic? to explain that every race sees them as such, which btw must be every humanoid, so that dogs, bears and sharks doesn't suddenly become effected too😅). In my opinion they shouldn't be able to reproduce with one another, cause biological speaking it really doesn't make any sense! Tanasha67 (talk) 02:30, 19 January 2018 (MST)

Musicus score template

That "Musicus' Meter Score" template should definitely go on the talk page if anywhere. Even the template's talk page suggests this. - Guy (talk) 12:05, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Why? I put it front and center on the main page so that people can get a good idea of how balanced (or not) a race is. Geodude671 (talk) 20:21, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

I like the ratings being on the main page. Further opinions why it shouldn't be would be nice to hear BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:20, 10 August 2017 (MDT)

The presence of the template at the top of the content page can be seen as an official endorsement of an unofficial rating system; of an abstract rating system which doesn't include all possible variables nor combinations of variables;and of a rating system that is external and thus can't be touched by the wiki community her. Finally, not to rag on James Musicius, but if we're going to use an external system for something like this it should be from WotC—or at least somewhere more reputable than "some guy's blog."

Perhaps I was overly zealous with the remark, "should definitely go on the talk page." Maybe sprinkling a scoring system here and there isn't inherently problematic, especially if the primary contributors to a page prefer to have it. I nonetheless believe it is not something that should ever be placed across the board on every race page; nor something that become standard on this wiki. - Guy (talk) 15:14, 10 August 2017 (MDT)

Plus, as the use of the template is essentially feedback, I think it generally belongs on the talk page. This is especially true if the race has a good rating—and if it doesn't have a good rating, I would still advocate putting the score system on the talk page and a possible Template:Needsbalance template on the main page.

Just to be clear, I'm not opposed to a race scoring system. I'm just opposed to officially endorsing an external, unproven, and mostly unknown system. If a scoring system stays on the talk page as a point of discussion, rather than an absolute and published ruling, then I'm all for it. - Guy (talk) 15:23, 10 August 2017 (MDT)

Thanks for explaining that. I like it on the front but understand the points being made, mainly that it is more or less feedback and the talk page is primary (only) place for that. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:14, 4 September 2017 (MDT)

Why is this a race?

I still don't understand why this is a race. Surely an amazon is just a female human barbarian with the outlander background. This race even uses the barbarian's unarmoured feature. Marasmusine (talk) 09:49, 4 September 2017 (MDT)

I wasn't the one who originally create the race; it was created by an IP; I just brought it to a playable state. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎ . . 10:23, 4 September 2017 (MDT)

Well I acknowledge that. Marasmusine (talk) 11:32, 4 September 2017 (MDT)

I think it is along the lines of what you said: Do you want to tell people you're a female barbarian outlander or an Amazon? Much "cooler" and easier to say Amazon. I know that in game, characters don't have to say what's on paper but I don't see player's getting that satisfaction. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:22, 4 September 2017 (MDT)

A human male fighter folk hero might call themselves a Highlander, that doesn't mean to say we have to make a Highlander race that duplicates the effects of being a human fighter. 82.44.54.235 15:44, 4 September 2017 (MDT)

What about returning to the idea of this amazon race being half-goliaths? 82.44.54.235 15:46, 4 September 2017 (MDT)

Hey everyone, original creator of this race here. Honestly when I first made this race a I kinda messed up applying it properly to the page, someone managed to come and fix that (thank you whoever did that) but then a bunch of other people kept changing things around and it got pretty out of hand and perverted in my opinion so at this rate I'd kinda just like it taken down completely, if I ever attempt this again I'll be sure to do a better job the first time. Thank you.

I have some ideas

Hello! I'm technically new to this site, but I've been using this race for one of my characters for months, and plan to continue to do so. So I'd be a bit sad if it was taken down! I see this page is abandoned, but I figured I'd poke around and see if there's anyone to ask permission from! If not, I'll just edit the thing, haha.

So, here's my proposed fixes for the big issues noted:

1. Art Source- Dragon's Crown - Amazon Epilogue by Emika Kida.

2. Armor Aversion redundancy- Replace this with Rugged Grace (similar to previously proposed Giant Beauty): Amazons have an inherent, nigh-deific, yet somewhat uncivilized presence that other races take note of. Whether this takes the form of noble gesture, bombastic charm or feminine sway, their unusual mannerisms, intentionally or otherwise, fill others' perceptions with warm feelings and clouded judgement. Impose advantage on persuasion rolls against humanoids (exempting Fey and Celestials). -I figure this would be a 2 on the Musicus meter? Which would take them up to 6, but also give someone an actual reason to pick them over Goliaths, haha.

3. The Reproduction Issue - Replace the half-Goliath backstory and go for a more godly heritage: Amazons reproduce somewhat rarely, by praying to their gods with extravagant feasts and revels. The morning after a successful ceremony, a baby amazon will be found somewhere nearby, in a cradle-shaped tree or shrub of golden leaves and vines, apparently sprung from out the ground. Leaves from these Vinecradles are often kept by the amazon throughout their lives, whether sewn into clothes, worn in hair, or gilded to weapons. There is also a myth among amazons, that those sisters of gloomy temperament are first found on rainy or overcast mornings. Typically, an amazon will have two or more volunteer-mothers, but in truth are raised by the whole tribe together. Rarely, amazons can also be born from relationships with other races, though they will often face mild prejudice from their sisters. Indeed to this day, no known Amazonian Queen has been born this way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alchykiller (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Hello Alchykiller; those ideas sound great! Go ahead and boldly implement them. Though I think that image might be copyrighted. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎ . . 15:33, 23 January 2018 (MST)

Oh hey, thanks Geodude! Was not expecting a fast response, haha! Well ok then I guess i'll go ahead then. Though...Hmm... Should we remove that image then? I do have some art of my own (of previously mentioned character) we could use, if desired: http://alchykillerart.tumblr.com/post/166725603341/lozen-my-barbarian-amazon-character-im-a-simple —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alchykiller (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

That looks great! Yes, the image currently on the page probably should be removed. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎ . . 15:49, 23 January 2018 (MST)

Alright, I think the deed is done, thanks for the encouragement! Hope everyone enjoys. Alchykiller (talk) 16:45, 23 January 2018 (MST)

Hey this page looks really cool and I like the concept; is it okay if I take it over and finish it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Trouble (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Go ahead and edit; that's the entire point of a wiki! — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎ . . 12:31, 7 March 2018 (MST)

Hey Trouble, I didn't think the race all that weak. Is there particular reason you changed this to Large and removed the restrictions of fey and celestials? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:05, 8 March 2018 (MST)

I'm of the opinion they shouldn't be Large. Their sizings should go after the Goliaths if anything. --ConcealedLight (talk) 10:20, 8 March 2018 (MST)

Ditto. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:30, 8 March 2018 (MST)

I support large-sized amazons! If worse comes to worse, a medium-sized (w/ powerful build) variant can also be made (Varkarrus (talk) 14:49, 8 March 2018 (MST))

....okay....I’ll ask you the same, is there rhyme and reason for it? I’m not trying to imply every trait needs reason. This race just seemed well balanced. Making it large tips the scales. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 15:34, 8 March 2018 (MST)

I don't think they have much going for them at the moment. The added bonuses to persuasion and intimidation are nice, and powerful, but the weapon proficiencies don't add much and they don't have any other strengths beyond that.

Then it would be better to improve upon it by adding interesting and unique traits or reworking the current set over simply making them Large. I say this as a Large size player race should only really be done in exceptional circumstances that without it would hamper the race conceptually, such as in the case of the Earth Giant (5e Race). Keep in mind that the first party purposely has avoided Large sized races and the Goliath is their answer to the communities request for one. --ConcealedLight (talk) 17:09, 8 March 2018 (MST)

Hmph, I see your point Varkarrus. Was also mid “submit” but prevented because CL >.< I’m with him though. Unique traits would serve better than large size. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 17:31, 8 March 2018 (MST)

Why not both? (Varkarrus (talk) 22:11, 8 March 2018 (MST))

See my previous comment. --ConcealedLight (talk) 04:07, 9 March 2018 (MST)

I'm going to make some edits which involve taking the size down to Medium and swapping the image out for something more appropriate for an amazonian race since I feel the theme the race communicates in words is not communicated by the image. --ConcealedLight (talk) 04:07, 9 March 2018 (MST)

Ok so whoever fixed this race. Thank you thank you thank you! After I first made this race I kinda screwed up on putting all the info in so stuff didn't show up how it should have. Somebody then came in and basically turned them into sluts and I was pretty upset since that's not what i was trying to do at all. I'd all but given up on this race and thankfully someone fixed it properly and made it almost exactly what I wanted it to be. So thank you very much!

No problem. Happy I could help. --ConcealedLight (talk) 07:16, 6 April 2018 (MDT)

Actual Musicus Meter

Adding in Musicus. --DonMafia (talk) 02:07, 13 August 2021 GMT+8

Musicus Meter Score: 7

This race has a score of 7 according to the Musicus Meter race guidelines. With this metric, first-party races' scores range from 4.5 to 8. This is a guideline, not a rule, and it's important to use your own judgment alongside this scoring.

This scoring may be the groundwork for a focused {{needsbalance}} usage. A contributor to this page may request a detailed breakdown of this page's balance. Without this information, {{needsbalance}} may then be removed. This meter cannot be the sole basis for a needsbalance template, but may be included as an accessory to a wider discussion of a race's balance.

This template should only be placed on a race's talk page. If this template is not placed on the talk page, please move it.

Amazon

Cost	Racial Trait
3	Strength, Constitution, Charisma score increases by 1.
1.5	Earthborn: +1 to your hit point maximum per level.
1	Rugged Grace: Proficiency/Expertise in Persuasion or Intimidation checks.
0.5	Amazon Weapons Training
0.5	Powerful Build
0.5	+5ft of Movement Speed.	7	Total