Talk:Way of the Four Elements Disciplines (5e Class Feature)

Conversations pasted from original page

Play-testing & Author Notes (If you have some input, suggestions, or even just a comment, my talk board can be found here) (*) Spellfist Stance: The original Spellfist Stance was a separate discipline that allowed you to make an unarmed strike or use the Flurry of Blows feature after using an action to perform an elemental discipline, but I have modified it to only work with the casting disciplines. At the same time, I decided that, if I was going to rewrite it to only be usable with casting disciplines, then I shouldn't make it a separate discipline that players would have to take, but instead be an aspect of the "Elemental Magic" discipline that becomes available at a higher level. Should it stay as is, or should I switch it back to how it was originally? (**) Elemental disciplines that I have concerns about with regards to their strength and effectiveness at their current given levels:

• Exploding Cinder Strike: I don't know if the damage should stay as is, with it being based on either Strength or Dexterity, or if it should instead be based on Wisdom, as Wisdom is the Elemental Disciple's spellcasting modifier. Also, should it stay as is with all creatures involved making Dexterity saving throws, or should it start with an attack roll against the original target and all adjacent creatures need to make a Dexterity save to avoid being caught in the attack?
• Water Jet: I feel like Water Jet should have a feature that allows the player to spend more ki points to upgrade its effect, but I don't know how or in what way it should be upgraded. Any comments?
• Wind Cloak: While its ki cost is on par with a 17th level elemental discipline, I don't feel like the effect is worth spending so much ki on, as you are spending more ki points on this effect then you would be spending on the "Avatar of the Elements" discipline, which is the benchmark discipline for the 17th level disciplines. The gimmick it has with the Iron Tortoise Shell is one that I put in, as I knew people would have questions as to whether or not the two disciplines could be used together, although using them together is just going to burn through your ki points like you wouldn't believe, which I am having mixed feelings towards. Should the effect be tweaked in some way to make it worth spending so much ki, or should it be relocated to the 11th level disciplines and have its ki cost be reduced?
• Freezing Stun Strike: While its effect is impressive, I don't know if it should stay as a 17th level discipline, or be relocated to the 11th level disciplines.
• Changing the Tide: I don't feel as though this discipline is worthy of being a 17th level discipline and should instead be relocated to the 11th level disciplines. I also don't know whether the attack should stay generic, or if it should specifically be a melee or ranged attack.

(***) Elemental disciplines that have conflicting versions, and I don't know for certain which version to use. May also share similar concerns with the elemental disciplines marked (**).

• Iron Tortoise Shell: Drake's version of this discipline, called "Impenetrable Iron Tortoise Shell", is the version I currently have up for this discipline. However, Man has a version of this discipline as well, called "Earth Barrier Defense", that costs only 1 ki point, but is an 11th level discipline. Should I use Drake's version for the "Iron Tortoise Shell", or should I use Man's version?
• Patient Badger Listens: Drake's version of this discipline is the version I am currently using, but Man has a version of this discipline that grants tremorsense up to 30 ft, while also requiring the Monk to maintain Concentration on the discipline, as though a Concentration spell, for the full minute. I went with Drake's version because I thought that having to maintain this discipline might limit the player's opinions a bit to much if done during combat, but do you think?
• Eyes of Fire: I am currently using Man's version of this discipline, as Drake has this discipline as a 17th level discipline that is simple a modified version of the see invisible spell, while Man's version gives this discipline a more unique flavoring, while having it as a 6th level discipline, which I think is a more reasonable location for a more utility-focused discipline like this one. Did I make the right call in using Man's version, or should I switch over to using Drake's version?
• One with the Tides: I currently have a slightly reworded version of Man's discipline up on this page, but Drake has a version of this discipline as well. Drake's version requires an action to use this discipline and doesn't provide the resistance to Cold damage. I can understand the reasoning behind each version, and what may end up happening is I create a hybrid of the two, but I can't really make this decision without first getting some play-test feedback. Should I stay using Man's version, switch to Drake's version, or create a hybrid of the two? If you think I should make a hybrid, then which kind should I make: one that requires an action and keeps the Cold resistance, or one that requires a bonus action and doesn't have the Cold resistance?

Question In regard to the 17th level disciplines, should I include a discipline that revolves each of the core elements: fire, water, wind, and earth? If so, then should I leave in the "Avatar of the Elements" discipline alongside the four other 17th level disciplines? The reason I am asking is because I see the "Way of the Elemental Disciple" as being more flexible then the original "Way of the Four Elements", and as such players should be able to choose whether to have a Monk that can manipulate all four elements ("Avatar of the Elements") or a Monk that has mastery over just one element (any of the four new disciplines). What are your thoughts and suggestions about this idea of mine?

Credits & Influences Nifft's Disciple of the Elements: Found [here]

• Took to heart his idea of viewing the Four Elements subclass as a caster subclass for the Monk, and tried to implement the aspects of his re-write that would allow the Monk to benefit more from taking caster-focused feats and cross-classing with spellcasters.

• Also incorporated his spell chart, but with some minor tweeks. I really liked the idea of condensing all of the spells into a single chart and binding that list to a single discipline that can be taken multiple times, as it helps remove a lot of the clutter created from having so many disciplines, when most of those disciplines did the same thing: give the Monk a spell they can cast. As for the tweeks I made, I reorganized the listing of the spells, as well as added the discipline names, as I felt they gave the spells a bit more flavor while at the same time helped keep the Four Elements from sounding like a Monk with a cut-and-paste spellcasting feature.

• Adopted his maximum ki point numbers and level spacing, as I felt 6th level was a sufficient capping point for a half-caster.

SpiketailDrake's Way of the Four Elements Remastered: Found [here]. Note: It is Proposed Solution 1.

• Adopted his idea of increasing the number of disciplines this subclass could take at each appropriate level from one to two.

• Incorporated his "Golden Snake's Icy Trail", but with some modifications to make it stand on even ground with the other 3rd level disciplines.

• I have included his reworks on the "Fist of Unbroken Air", "Fangs of the Fire Snake", and "Water Whip" disciplines, as well as his "Spellfist Stance", which has been incorporated into the "Elemental Magic" discipline, and his "Eternal Mountain Defense" discipline, which was identical to the version used by Person_Man.

• I added his "Water Jet" discipline and his "Impenetrable Iron Tortoise Shell" discipline, which was turned into the "Iron Tortoise Shell".

• Added his "Avatar of the Elements" discipline, though with some minor adjustments. While this discipline has become the cornerstone of the 17th level disciplines featured on this page, the earthquake effect has been modified to make it more comparable to the other three bonus effects of the "Avatar of the Elements".

Person_Man's version of the Way of the Four Elements Remastered: Found [here]. Note: It is Proposed Solution 2.

• I like his idea of the elemental disciplines being "unique" with regard to their abilities, rather than just being renamed spells. Both this idea and Nifft's compiling of the Monk's spells into a single discipline were the driving thoughts behind this redesigning of the "Way of the Four Elements".

• Slightly modified his "Hurricane Throw" discipline in order to counter the problem people were having it, which was it making melee attacks all but unnecessary.

• My "Ride the Wind" discipline got its name from one of Drake's disciplines, but its effect is inspired by Person_Man's "Harness the Air" discipline.

• The "Hungry Flames" discipline featured on my page draws inspiration from Person_Man's "Hungry Flame Blossom" discipline, but with the fireball feature removed.

• Adopted his "Wind Cloak" and "Freezing Stun Strike" disciplines, but my thoughts and concerns about them are gone into more detail in the "Play-test Notes" section of this page.

• Incorporated his versions of the "Eyes of Fire", "One with the Tides", and "Leaf on the Wind" disciplines, as well as his original "Flowing Water Stance" discipline.

...Help?

I don't really know the formatting well enough to get rid of all the PHB content without messing up the page. Knowlessman (talk) 19:40, 17 January 2019 (MST)

...Am moderately less convinced that I should've moved this after looking at the forum thread listed. Maybe this should be under Subclasses as a Variant Four Elements, but I was looking for just more elemental disciplines and, I guess, assumed that that was what I'd found. Knowlessman (talk) 19:40, 17 January 2019 (MST)

Thoughts on being a catch-all incorporation of discipline ideas?

Seeing as there doesn't seem to be a proper home yet for throwing around ideas for Way of the Four Elements disciplines without rebooting the entire subclass from scratch, this page is the first one I've found that resembles such a thing. Would it be okay to throw more elemental disciplines onto the pot (as I have for my first edit as of this writing) or should that be backpedaled in favor of keeping this page as is? Endermage77 (talk) 04:21, 21 March 2021 (MDT)

Casting

A monk gets a maximum total of 60 ki points if they expend all 20 they get and have 2 short rests. A halfcaster will have 64 spell points on a long rest recharge. Normally, to cast a spell of 3rd, 4th, or 5th level, a caster needs to spend 5, 6, or 7 spell points respectively. A 4 elements monk, however, only needs to use up 4, 5, or 6 ki points to cast spells of equal level. So the ki point reduction isn't really needed. --Lavie (talk) 18:35, 8 December 2021 (MST)