Talk:Shadowstrike (5e Spell)

Balance

Like I said in my edit summary, attack-enhancing cantrips shouldn't scale with level, because attacks themselves are intended to scale with level. A typical 5th-level character could easily pick up this cantrip if they were an elf or took a feat, regardless of their class. A fighter wielding a greatsword normally wouldn't use its bonus action for anything else most turns, so it could easily pick up shadowstrike —and hey that guy in the party who already does the most damage does ~9 (2d8) more damage per turn on top of that thanks to this cantrip. And that disparity is only going to grow as levels increase and this cantrip gets stronger. - Guy (talk) 10:52, 1 December 2017 (MST)

I adjusted the wording. Wizards gets around the idea of fighters and what not using this by making it and action in an of itself. So if they want to use the cantrip they can, but then they are making a spell attack and they lose the option to extra attack features. --Meep (talk) 08:12, 10 January 2018 (MST)

Dear: Fellow Homebrew creators Hey guys I like what you're trying to do with the spell. The problem is, that it is not meant to be ranged. It is meant to only be melee. On top of that, if you make it only a d6 with nothing else and scales. You need to remember that it will by 17th level deal the same damage as Green Flame Blade (which does EVEN MORE damage to an adjacent enemy as well) And thus becomes useless. That is why I made it a d8 of extra damage. However, I like the changed to a d6 but I added the spellcasting modifier so that it at least does a minimum of 1 more damage than Green Flame Blades single target damage. I understand your concerns. However, this is not balancing the spell. It is only making it weaker than EVERY other cantrip in dnd. Sincerely, the CREATOR of this spell —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Biosnatcher147 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Yes, but Green flame blade is balanced around multi target damage because you have to factor in the weapon attack being made as well. Shadowstrike is single target cantrip there for slightly different, a more appropriate comparison would be Blooming Blade which deals a flat 1d8 until level 5, but offers the target the choice to remain motionless and prevent the damage. Shadowstrike even with a single 1d6 damage is arguably more powerful than that as is considering that it is guaranteed to hit on top of your attack. Adding your spell casting modifier would push it even further an completely eclipsed first party cantrip of similar nature up until at least level 5 and arguable even until level 11. As for falling off at later levels, first party cantrips have interesting ways of circumventing that without just adding flat damage to a single attack. You, the CREATOR, should look at different ways your cantrip grow and be unique as well --Meep (talk) 00:49, 15 January 2018 (MST)

First of all, not only did the original, and the previous version was supposed to 100% be based off of a weapon attack. I would like to apologize for forgetting to add in the edit to the text itself. This entire spell is supposed to have the same function as Green Flame Blade except be based on only single target. And AGAIN the problem isn't in other cantrips like booming blade. It is in the matter of Green Flame Blade LITERALLY doing the same exact amount of damage to a single creature (not to mention also dealing EVEN MORE damage to another creature). And THAT is unbalanced. The fact that an multitarget cantrip does the same single target damage as a single target cantrip is ridiculous and unreasonable. No, rpg out there that I know does this, and certainly not dnd. And fyi I have looked at other ways that my cantrip can grow. I'm fine with the idea growing, but this cantrip is supposed to serve ONE purpose. To give melee spellcasters a single target option akin to the way that Green Flame Blade works, while having a darker (hence necrotic) idea to it. I'm fine with another spell being similar and doing something somewhat different, but what you're doing is yet again not balancing. It is making it weaker than a cantrip that literally does the same thing AND more. Also a quick fyi. The original that I made was a d8 not a d6 and that's all. I liked the idea of lowering the damage die but there still had to be SOMETHING that would add to the damage. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Biosnatcher147 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

You really need to take another look at Green Flame Blade before you go yelling about it. Until you hit level 5 it does exactly 0 extra damage to targets struck by your melee attack and it requires that the second target is within 5 feet of the first to even receive the bonus damage. Shadowstrike giving 1d6 on a melee attack is already generous. At level 5 the damage of GFB increases to 1d8 (4.5) single target damage while Shadowstrike's is 2d6 (7). It isn's until level 11 that they even begin to close that gap with GFB doing 2d8 (9) and SS dealing 3d6 (10.5) and at level 17 GFB does 3d8 (13.5) and SS deals 4d6 (14) so quite close in power.

• Shadowstrike continuously has greater single target damage than Green Flame Blade
• Shadowstrike deals a type of damage that is much less commonly resisted
  --Meep (talk) 14:07, 15 January 2018 (MST)

Sorry I would like to restate what I said in a better manner. What I meant was that the max damage of Shadowstrike and Green Flame Blade are exactly the same at 17th level. I have read up on Green Flame Blade and know that is scales slower than most damage based cantrips. However, in the end it also does damage to an adjacent target, whether they have to be within 5 feet or not does not matter. It still does extra damage. So to put it in better words. It does the same single target at 17th + even more than shadowstrike to an adjacent target, making shadowstrike a mute spell to even have. However, I will adress your earlier comment about Booming Blade. You are correct in the fact that it should deal more due to it's special cicumstance the the target creature needing to move in order to take the damage. This is why I 100% agree that the damage die for Shadowstrike should be a d6. However, it should still deal more max damage than Green Flame Blades single target damage at ALL times. Even 17th level, this is due to the fact that Shadowstrike explicitely affects only one creature whereas Green Flame Blade affects two......................I think I have come up with a solution. If we go by your method until the 1st upgrade (SS=12 BB= 16 GFB= 8) then mine as an extra buff to damage from the 2nd to the 3rd (SS= 19-23 BB= 24 GFB= 16 / SS= 25-29 BB= 32 GFB= 24 (using max damage mod since calculating max damage)) It then balances out so that Shadowstrike never does more damage than Booming Blade, but always does more single target damage than Green Flame Blade. Also what code do you use to sign stuff on here.... kinda new to how the code works on this site. --Biosnatcher147

Or even better yet so that way the average of SS isn't equivalent to BB it only adds spellcasting modifier to damage for 17th level. This way the averages and maxes are properly aligned so that damage goes as such (Single-target) GFB<SS<BB --Biosnatcher147

We are seeing eye to eye now I feel like. It's still a little bit unorthodox but better than it was before. I've been trying to come up with a good way to do it since last night but I haven't quite figured it out yet. The biggest thing I was trying to fix before is that you cant have a spell more powerful than other spells at lower levels just because if falls of at later levels. That is more or less the definition of unbalanced on this wiki.
As for formating there are several help pages to learn about all the things you can do but as for signing you just add 4 tildes ~~~~ at the end of your comment and wiki does the rest. I also have a toolbar at the top of my edit section with some quick helpful tools.
And one more thing (Uncle Chan) spells and abilities are always balanced around average damage not maximum. ex: 2d4 (5) is much better on average than 1d8 (4.5) even though there max damage is the same. And as you add more and more dice the averages change substantially --Meep (talk) 15:47, 15 January 2018 (MST)

I don't exactly like the idea of giving flat damage at level 1.... but it was just strange before and this scales similarly. Ugh I can't figure out a different way to do it that gives -regular- level ups --Meep (talk) 18:09, 15 January 2018 (MST)

I have a question. This cantrip says that you deal all attacks to a creature. Does that mean that if you have multiattack, you deal all those attacks plus the damage of the cantrip in each attack, or only once? — ReDeath [0:54] GMT -1 2020 March 17.