Talk:Politico (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

Optimizing...

Thats a great set up, but how would you be able to extend this any further? It has been my experience that certain combinations work well up to a certain point then the benefits just stop growing. After a while, +2 becomes inconsequential and even negligible to a certain extent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DM Demonkin (talk • contribs) 00:55, 11 December 2006 (MST). Please sign your posts.

Actually, since diplomacy's mechanics are static rather than dynamic, you COULD feasibly take 17 levels in commoner and still manage to do pretty well for yourself. That having been said, I'm working the bugs out of a build that gets epic-level diplo benefits without even rolling by level 10. =)

To be honest though, I don't think that this is "optimization" as much as "taking advantage of a broken rule." Diplo is broken. But for the sake of argument, I'll get cracking on formatting that build. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.232.159.103 (talk • contribs) 00:40, 12 December 2006 (MST). Please sign your posts.

Done and done. Warforged 15:54, 12 December 2006 (MST)

Why dont you try to take the vow feats from the Book of Exalted Deeds, like vow o peace, vow of no violence, sacred vow, and vow of poberty, with that you could have more bonuses to diplomacy and also gain a tranquility aura so if someone trys to attack you it will have to make a will save to resist not attacking you.

I hope this helps you in some way, take a look at it.

Im a guy that speaks spanish so sorry if i've got any wrong words —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Madmonk (talk • contribs) 09:33, 11 February 2007 (MST). Please sign your posts.

I notice this build, as a secondary goal, focuses on abilities that help the character avoid getting hurt in battle, or avoid battle all together. I keep thinking that a level of warlock seems like a waste to only get beguiling influence. So I came up with the following build that focuses on the warlock's abilities:

ECL	Class/HD/LA	Feats	Special
1st	half-elf paragon	Negotiator, Skill Focus (Diplomacy)	Cha 18
2nd	human paragon		adaptive learing (Diplomacy)
3rd	warlockCAr	Complimentary InsightRoD	beguiling influenceCAr
4th	half-elf paragon		persuasion, ability score increase (Cha 19)
5th	half-elf paragon		+2 Cha (21)
6th	human paragon	Practiced SpellcasterCAr, Sociable PersonalityRoD
7th	human paragon		+2 Cha (23)
8th	warlockCAr		ability score increase (Cha 24)
9th	warlockCAr	any feat
10th	warlockCAr
11th	exemplarCAd		skill artistry (Diplomacy), skill mastery (Diplomacy)

• Complete Adventurer
• Complete Arcane
• Races of Destiny

14 ranks +14 Cha (with cloak of charisma +6, an age of 125 years, and a tome of leadership and influence +5) +3 Bluff synergy +3 Knowledge (nobility and royalty) synergy +3 Sense Motive synergy +4 beguiling influence +4 skill artistry +3 racial +3 Skill Focus +2 Negotiator +4 greater heroism = +57.

Eldrich blast and invocations known are at 7th level, but the caster level for them are 11th (your character level). I may extend this build one level and use Madmonk's suggestion of using VoP. —Sledged (talk) 16:14, 6 May 2007 (MDT)

No, I won't. Miss out on the tome and cloak bonuses. —Sledged (talk) 09:59, 16 May 2007 (MDT)

I talked to a friend of mine and he agreed with me that after you reach the first level of exemplar, if you go to Complete Divine under the Evangelist, you can find your way to a place that only true munchkins can hope to be at. Go take a look at it. -- Flession 20:12, 30 May 2007 (MDT)

Fast talk: Make a rushed Diplomacy check (full-round action) with a −5 penalty instead of −10. —Sledged (talk) 21:11, 30 May 2007 (MDT)

The Fighter levels seem wasted. Taking them out and take Leadership as a 6th level feat, maximizing your cohort's Diplomacy (Venerable age, Half-Elf, various magic items) so that his Aid Another check gives a +5 to a +7 is doable and would increase the bonus even further at a lower level. — OptimizationFanatic (talk|contrib) 13:05, 3 June 2008 (MDT)

UA Rogue vs Rogue?

"Lvl 1: Rogue (Unearthed Arcana variant)" I'm confused. Why the Unearthed Arcana variant? All that does, as I see it, is remove diplomacy from the skill list. Burunduk 15:54, 16 March 2007 (MDT)

Oh I see. I've taken a second look at UA, and I realize the author of this build was talking about the "fighting rogue" variant, not the "wilderness rogue". Ingenious.

Although, I'd personally recommend taking some flaw instead. Sneak attacks may come useful in your last 10 levels. Burunduk 22:43, 16 March 2007 (MDT)

I am curious as to what flaws are published by WotC and in what books they can be found. I thought flaws were only on D&D Wiki however I did hear someone mention something about a book also including something along the same lines as flaws. So, are any published by WotC? --Green Dragon 21:00, 20 March 2007 (MDT)

All the flaws that were published by WotC are in the Unearthed Arcana. None of the ones you actually have on here are part of it. I suggest "yar yar"ing it (if you catch my drift) or just purchasing it, as it is a great book to have. Although, [1] this link should have everything you need though, as it does contain all the WotC flaws. Flession 13:34, 21 March 2007 (MDT)

Thank you, I had heard on Talk:DnD Flaws (I think — to lazy to make sure) that WotC has some published flaws and now I know where to find them :). However, I really do not have the money for a D&D book and I don't really want to "yar yar" a D&D book at the moment. Thank you for your help. --Green Dragon 19:07, 21 March 2007 (MDT)

Three Feats?

So, I'm curious as to how you get three feats at first level? Every character gets a single feat at first level. And taking the Rogue Variant gives you the Fighter bonus feat progression, so that would give you a second feat, taken from the fighter bonus feat list. So where does the third feat come in? This isn't a human character, so it won't get a bonus feat from that at first level...--Skwyd 12:25, 29 March 2007 (MDT)

Yea, that kept bothering me as well. More than likely, you could take a flaw in order to obtain it (might I suggest Vunerable?). However, I don't see that really mentioned in the grand design. Flession 08:10, 28 March 2007 (MDT)

Flession, would you mind adding a flaw into this build to make it work? --Green Dragon 10:33, 28 March 2007 (MDT)

I added a choice of two flaws that would actually fit the character's archetype. Noncombatant makes sense for this character as much as Vulnerable does as it it shows that this character does not use a sword or arcane might to deal its damage. It really doesn't matter which one you pick though, because unless the DM has Diplomacy rules that aren't as broken as the regular rules, your sword will rust before you even need to wield it. Flession 12:23, 28 March 2007 (MDT)

Thanks for adding that — this build now works :). Also, would you mind posting which books those flaws can be found in? It would just help more visitors... --Green Dragon 19:37, 28 March 2007 (MDT)

Aha, that makes sense now. I agree that the Diplomacy rules, as written in the PHB, do break down, especially at higher levels. I have seen some variant rules for Diplomacy that make much more sense and in that context, this character would still be a star performer. It would just make it that much better.--Skwyd 12:25, 29 March 2007 (MDT)

No need to post the book, as it is already talked about at the beginning (Unearthed Arcana). I also added the link to the d20srd (and apparently it seems to be Open Source, so you could, in sense add them to this wiki) Flession 16:19, 29 March 2007 (MDT)

Exemplar Requirements

Exemplar requires 13 ranks in a skill, so you have to be 10th-level before you can take a level of exemplar. I recommend that 3rd level of half-elf paragon and take a boost to Cha. —Sledged (talk) 07:34, 6 May 2007 (MDT)

I picked up on that awhile ago, but I figured if you get it at that level, then it wouldn't matter...apparently it does. Getting the last level of the Paragon is a good way to finish it off. I'll fix that right away. -- Flession 08:37, 6 May 2007 (MDT)

Negotiator ×2

What rule allows to take Negotiator twice? By default feats can only be taken once unless the descriptions says otherwise. —Sledged (talk) 07:55, 6 May 2007 (MDT)

There isn't, and that's the thing. I guess it would be up the acting DM to determine that. However, I , as a DM, wouldn't be against a person wanting to do that...even if this is a f*cked-up build. -- Flession 08:29, 6 May 2007 (MDT)

That actually doesn't make any sense. The rules are pretty clear than any bonus that comes from the same source, even if it is an untyped bonus, does not stack. Thus, taking skill-feats like this multiple times is inherently contradictory... –EldritchNumen 21:03, 6 May 2007 (MDT)

Its also kind of silly to claim something as optimization, point out that you're abusing the rules in a way most DMs wont enjoy, and then blithely claim "Oh Im sure a reasonable DM wouldnt have a problem with me breaking an explicit written rule to further improve something thats already broken." Imagine a rogue taking Stealthy or SF:Hide over and over and over again, or a caster taking Spell Focus X10 for their school of choice, if you need to understand why this isn't cool. So I'd say... suck it up and legalize your character. Optimization is about working inside the rules, otherwise its just cheating. You could drop the flaw so you dont even need to fill that feat, and shuffle everything up. Considering no smart DM is going to allow flaws either (noncombatant is a free feat for any non gish caster, for example), and that optimization is more impressive the closer you stick to core, I'd say it would be an overall improvement on the legitimacy of the build.

As a secondary point, there are some rules around somewhere for making Diplomacy less broken, I forget which book but I'll hunt them down and add them here for people who are curious about how you can fix this in your game while staying true to the rules. -Solidstate 12:56, 16 June 2007 (MDT)

A misunderstanding of Diplomacy

As a DM, I can definitely say that I would never allow "commanding [a high-powered npc being] to slay" an enemy; diplomacy entails cutting a deal not telling someone what to do. Even if the DC from hostile to fanatical is succeeded in one round, a DIPLOMATIC discussion is what took place; granted a one-round conversion like that really looks like a command. Imagine a benevolent mafioso speaking with a client: "You do this for me, you'll make me very happy. I repay my favors." Of course, the mafioso would be using intimidate instead, but it's a similar concept. --24.207.226.23 17:48, 11 July 2008 (MDT)

Two Better Builds

I thought I'd add several easy and massive improvements on this.

The first is a simple build using Marshall from the Minis book. Using it and Warlock, and the Races of Destiny Feats, you can create a character who can pull off the epic-sized checks in 3 levels.

Half Elf, Charisma 18, Int 14+ (16 gives you all 3 synergies at level 2, otherwise you wait until 3)

ECL	Class/HD/LA	Feats	Special
1st	Marshall	Complimentary Insight	Skill Focus: Diplomacy (bonus), Minor Aura: Motivate Charisma, check total +17
2nd	Warlock		Beguiling Influence, check total +30 or +33 (int 16)
3rd	Half Elf Paragon	Sociable Personality	Negotiator (bonus), check total +36

The key here is that Motivate Charisma adds your Charisma bonus as a Circumstance Bonus (stacks with everything except another Marshall aura) to Charisma checks and Charisma-related skill checks. So you get 2x your Charisma. With +36 (or 40 if you have a friendly caster with Eagle's Splendor) at level 3, you can auto-pass a normal speed roll from Hostile to Friendly, and have better than 75% odds (with your reroll) to pull off either a slow Hostile to Helpful, a fast Hostile to Friendly, or an epic-level Helpful to Fanatic. AT LEVEL 3. I didnt bother elaborating with a whole build, but adding more Half Elf and Human Paragon for the Charisma boosts is an easy path to follow here, possibly taking one level of Wizard first.

Speaking of Wizard, I offer the caster version:

Half Elf, Charisma 16-18, Int 14+ (the higher the better, this one suffers from having to spend a few cross-class buys to get all the synergies)

ECL	Class/HD/LA	Feats	Special
1st	Marshall	Complimentary Insight	Skill Focus: Diplomacy (bonus), Minor Aura: Motivate Charisma, check total +17
2nd	Wizard
3rd	Wizard	Sociable Personality
4th	Wizard		Eagle's Splendor, +1 CHA, Check total +33
5th	Wizard
6th	Wizard	Negotiator or Improved Init	Mask of the Ideal, Spontaneous Divination, Divine Insight, check total +49
7th	Wizard
8th	Wizard		Voice of the Dragon, +1 CHA, check total +65

Buffed, at level 8, this build gives you a Diplomacy check of +65 (11 ranks, 9 synergy, 14 charisma, 2 half elf, 3 skill focus, 10 enhancement, 12 insight, and 4 competance) or +67 w/ negotiator. You can easily add Warlock next for another 6, and add Half Elf and Human Paragon for more Charisma if desired. Maxed out, you can hit a check of over 100 (which, of course, is fairly useless since you really only need a check of +60, but its useful if your DM applies negative circumstance penalties to counterbalance the broken Diplomacy rules). The really obvious advantage of this build is how it is focused around a caster chasis, allowing you to achieve damage output, defend yourself through invisibility, d-door, etc, and maintain a high degree of utility, outside of automatically winning fights against intelligent foes :) Also, unlike the build above or on the main page, it achieves that number without having spent any gold at all :) It does require some buffing, but Mask and Voice are 10/per, Divine Insight is hr/per until discharged, and Eagle's Splendor and Mask can easily be replaced by items at higher levels. -- unsigned by Solidstate

I totally agree here, every good Diplomancer build needs Marshall levels --Mkill 12:35, 17 July 2007 (MDT)

One thing I would have to recommend if your DM allows it is the improved synergy feat for those whose take 7+ levels. - Sakurasboy

We will rebuild...

The Binder from Tome of Magic allows you to use the rather potent vestige of "Nebarious" at level 1. Binding him allows you to Take 10 on your Diplomacy checks and make them as a standard action without penalty. --TK-Squared 20:14, 5 May 2008 (MDT)

Succubi and Exemplar Build Ideas

One thing I think would make another good build (although it would be level 13 and not 11) would be to take a succubi and put the exemplar class onto it. The charisma score gets demonically high. --Sakurasboy 17:59, 4 October 2008 (MDT)