Talk:Jedi (5e Class)

Taking over

Hello. To whomever is starting to make this class, please dont do this to yourself. Let me take over and give me your opinion Im not trying to be rude or anything but a jedi dosent cast spells. The range of powers a Jedi has at thier disposal is far better and more extsensive than you realize. Trust me. .Bannanameds (talk) 09:31, 30 December 2016 (MST)

Use spells if they have the effect that you need. Psionics in D&D use spells, but have the psionics tag to tell you its psionic rather than a spell. If a jedi can lift something remotely using the force, you may as well give them mage hand rather than duplicating the effect under a different name.

The force is space magic. When Kenobi says "these are not the droids you're looking for", he's basically casting suggestion. Have them eschew material components. Marasmusine (talk) 03:12, 1 January 2017 (MST)

thats true. i guess its more of an asthetic thing than anythingBannanameds (talk) 17:57, 2 January 2017 (MST)

Do you plan to do a Jedi lightsabre? --Redrum 17:02, 4 January 2017 (MST)

To whomever made this page. . .

DON'T LET YOUR DREAMS JUST BE DREAMS!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PickleJarPete (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

aye aye captain BigShotFancyMan (talk) 19:35, 10 July 2018 (MDT)

Heya

I have been working on my own Jedi class for a Star Wars 5e game. In my version i had a set of lightsaber forms all built up, going all the way to Juyo and Vapaad, but I do think yours are better and a bit more well thought out. Do you mind if I take these for my own use, and modifying some of them, as well as giving you credit for their creation?

I don’t mind at all. It’s great to hear you like it. I’d enjoy seeing what you come up with so let me know when you’ve got something up. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 16:31, 23 July 2018 (MDT)

Of course, I'll throw it at you. My goal was to sort of tackle some of the concepts from the old 3.0 d20 star wars (not saga), while also making it somewhat my own. Thanks man!

Capstone Feature Title

Just to kinda put it out there since it’s what people don’t like or wanna change- “with you, is the force” is a tribute or a nod to yoda. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 17:15, 18 January 2019 (MST)

Missile Defense Update

That was a great add. Thanks PJP!   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   07:48, 19 July 2019 (MDT)

Force Barrier

I had this written basically as a spell and now its been what I consider a considerable nerf. Did playtesting show as written it was too good? I'd question the SRD Spell its mirrored after if so.   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   07:03, 31 October 2019 (MDT)

Playtesting

I am curious if the last edit (click here) was a result of playtesting. The edit is interesting and increases the cost of many powers, which are fairly similar to the SRD spells.   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   09:13, 18 November 2019 (MST)

Unarmored Defense

The base rule in 5e has a creatures "base Natural Armor" (this is in quotes as there are many asterisks that affect it as such) is 10 + Dexterity modifier. Did you intend to make their Unarmored Defense like that of a monk, 10 + Dexterity modifier + Wisdom Modifier? Or did you intend a different approach to the class and that's merely an accident? I only ask because there are similarities between the classes and don't want to step on any toes. If this was the actual intended purpose, then I apologize for sounding rude, but maybe it would be best to merely remove that "class skill"?

Thank you, --TruLandragon (talk) 23:17, 21 November 2019 (MST)

The current iteration is as intended. Jedi are like monks from my perspective, and one could play a Jedi as a base monk class but I thought I'd reflavor the monk for a full jedi class.

To try and compact all this into a subclass would have been too much. Would I prefer separate features? Yes. But I also don't want to remove features and leave the class hanging with nothing, as would be the case if I removed features already present in the game.   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   05:30, 22 November 2019 (MST)

Sith/ Force Phantom

The phantom gets 1 attack total or 1 attack per round?

I believe I wrote it to be one attack. Similar to pets/companions. Have you used this and known it to not be fair? In my head, the jedi still has an action to attack, and this thing getting one attack per round is helpful, but not (too) strong. How about you?   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   17:54, 16 January 2020 (MST)

Telekinesis

I have just recently made a spell that works well for the Jedi telekinesis, so I put it on this class but I don't know how to properly hyperlink it.

Fixed. Red Leg Leo (talk) 11:17, 19 May 2020 (MDT)

Consular/ Jedi Class Upgrades

Hi ~BigShotFancyMan glad this page is still alive, going to change and add a few things to help buff the Consular and Jedi class as a whole a bit. I'm currently playtesting as Consular in a DnD 5e campaign in a party in a world that's basically Napoleonic era of technology. I love what the Jedi class has become over the years and am incredibly passionate for the class. For roleplay and diplomacy, Consular is absolutely amazing, love playing the diplomatic role. The general idea I am going for is Consular as the diplomatic face but a force to be reckoned with force power wise. Yoda comes to mind as an exmaple. I've been having major issues so sorry in advance if it gets too long explaining.

-Force Powers Known

This needs to be done away with or changed. Only 2 force powers to use as a Consular at lv 6 basically gimps you for a campaign. Talking with my DM, I had to do away with force power limits just to remain afloat in combat. Even assuming one of those powers were force choke, that's only 12 attacks at lv 6 at 5D6 damage, average is 17-18 damage, 204 damage over 12 rounds, assuming of course you hit every single force choke which is unlikely.

Considering most games over the years I've played in will have enemy groups equal or larger than party size, you quickly run out in a single encounter. This gets compounded if you're running from encounter to encounter. Your lightsaber only does an average of 6-7 damage at lv 6 on 2D6. Leaving you as mincemeat for a 4-5 CR 2 Druids. This ironically would make me weaker than even the Ranger class who can easily double that at lv 6 with no magic items or even min-maxed. I'm not messing with it on this page but that represents a serious issue. So others reading this please take heed and try this method.

Considering how low the force points are in comparison to what they were raised to I don't think getting rid of force power limits will severely unbalance anything, especially when most of the low cost skills are utility skills. Skills that luckily don't gimp other players playing as Jack of All Trades. Other Jedi subclasses would be unaffected since they can't even use major force powers like Rend or Force Destruction with out using every single point until Lv 6. and Lv. 13 respectively. I agree 100% with the force power cost raise but limits need to be taken off. Luckily whoever raised the cost of force powers was aware enough to raise the cost of combat powers significantly so Jedi don't simply dominate a game even without force limits.

- Force Power List: Some Jedi powers needed to be added and some buffed slightly. Force Pull, Force Push and Jedi Mage Hand come to mind. I'll be using some of the abilities in Battlefront 2 and Clone Wars as a concept start to add things.

-Lv 7 Consular Feature: Of course getting rid of force limits means Consular needs to be changed. The most creative way I've thought up so far as a stopgap is making the 7th level a new Class Feature in additional to a normal additional feature. Upon reaching Lv 7, you gain Force Recharge. "Allowing the force to flow through you revitalizes you and pushes you further." You gain two attacks per turn, +2 to AC, +5 to Attack and Damage rolls, Spell Ranges are doubled, Spell attacks change to D8 attack die, Force Points recharge, Spell DC raises by 3, spell attack bonus is doubled and your movement speed increases 5 times your wis modifier + dex modifier. For every 2 rounds this ability is active, starting from when it is first activated, you gain 4 levels of exhaustion at the end of the second round and an 1 additional exhaustion each extra round the ability is active.

If the ability is canceled halfway through, you only take half of the total exhaustion levels. If exhaustion reaches 6 levels and death occurs, only wish or true resurrection can revive this character. Once the ability ends, all Force points are gone until the next long rest. Force points are halved until meditation over a long rest, after the meditation this ability recharges in 30 days. Only meditation can undo the levels of exhaustion. Meditation cancels the effects of a long rest. At Lv 11, you only gain 2 levels of exhaustion after 2 rounds, at Lv 15, 1 level of exhaustion after two rounds.

The roleplay point being that a Consular would want to end a fight as quickly and harshly to force people on the road to peace. Or to save their allies in a quick fight. In-game, it lets a Consular rise to the occasion at risk of permanently killing their character. While the other Jedi subclasses have multiple opportunities for epic-level moments, consulars would only be once every 10-20 sessions. This could work as a lv 7 Jedi class feature as well.

I'll playtest more and report back. The campaign I'm currently in is a long one where Lvs come once every month or so I'll learn a lot.

The people that actually play test blow me away with their information. I am glad you can corroborate the anon users edit of increasing points. I doubt removing a limit on known powers is detrimental. It was included since it is the traditional way powers (spells) are handled.

I am skeptical about the new power idea but understand the need for one, and hear the cry for climatic epic hero moment stuff that the other subclasses have. I am bit out of touch with the class, but think I need this motivation to improve the class.

How does the Jedi fair with others in the party? Does your consular steal the show? Are there other subclasses playing too that simply outshine fighter/barbarian classes? I really appreciate you taking the time for this and look forward to what we can do to improve the class! Red Leg Leo (talk) 18:22, 24 June 2020 (MDT)

No problem! The powers I have added look fairly balanced from my view and I'll be testing them next Wednesday to check. The Consular plays excellently as a diplomatic character especially when roleplayed as one who wants to avoid conflict at all costs. Force power wise, the Consular is tilted more to using just force powers to end a fight. But it's persuasiveness allows it to get enemies to surrender. I've used it quite a few times as well as today to end a major battle halfway through with an offer of surrender.

I've also added a large amount of Star Wars quotes ranging from Clone Wars to the Sequel Trilogy to even quotes from Star Wars Legends to excite every type of Star Wars fan.

Jedi as a class fairs pretty well. Another guy was playing as a Guardian Jedi at first but moved to the Artificer class. Wanted a more utility based character I believe but the Guardian Jedi was balanced as we played. The only other fighter (subclass Samurai) in the party is min-maxed so may not count but easily remains as the DPS/tank of the group. He can dish out more damage, to more enemies and hold the line with more hp. Paladin isn't outclassed either with the use of Smite and lay on hands constantly.

For Consular, it only truly outclasses in situations involving persuasion and insight. Which fits it's diplomatic role. TheGamer (talk) 22:53, 24th June 2020 (EST)

Jedi Class Changes

Realized I forgot to make a change to the force powers limit. To basically get rid of it.

To the guy changing it, I understand the lower force point costs for maneuvers from a lightsaber only Jedi build perspective but why get rid of the quotes and lower suggestion costs? I'm getting rid of the power limits so having Jedi recharge full on short rest would be breaking things. I understand that Jedi are like the Monks class but that's where the resemblance ends. Their a class combined from Monk, Sorcerer, Rogue, and Fighter. The powers Jedi can cast put them on par with Wizards and Sorceresses and their fighting ability with dex based Fighters. Seems also strange to get rid of most of the flavor text. Also being able to cast suggestion five times at Lv 5 seems like it would be fairly overpowered if you recharge every hour, especially for a consular build that's 10 suggestion spells I could use as a diplomat role at lv 5 every hour and it gets worst the more I level! Seems like it would absolutely destroy a a campaign from that alone.

As a Consular character cast Force destruction, 10d6+50, average 75 damage, in a 10 foot radius every hour at lv 6. This I'll be changing back with a few other things since I'd mean could solo a Young Brass Dragon at lv 6, combine Force recharge and I could solo a Fire Giant. A lv 10 Jedi would be on par with a lv 15 in any other class. In a party of people with a Jedi, a DM would have to throw multiple adult dragons just to have a chance to challenge them.

Tying the maneuvers to dex instead of force points is a smart idea so not touching that.

Also as an aside. The quotes help people reading this page visualize what type of Jedi they're going for and what is means to be Force-sensitive. There's still a lot of people in this world who won't be knowledgeable about much or even anything Star Wars. For a lot of them their only knowledge may only be the sequel films but they're still DnD players who want to play. Introduce them to the wider Star Wars world y'know? Little lore, little campy humor. You'd be surprised how many people don't know Keira or Revan but have read the most of Legends. (TheGamer (talk) 13:48, 4 July 2020 (EST)

(Adding changes made)

-Force power limit removed

-Some quotes added back in.

-Abilities buffed

-Force Recharge buffed

-Guardian subclass buffed

Main charges at past lv 11-12. Jedi character should start feeling the same scaling of power the other official classes get. A Lv 20 Jedi should be understandably on a God-tier level, similar to lv 20 Fighters and Wizards even assuming no magical items are given.

I didn't like any of the anon edits. Also, I've saved a version of this that enjoy a lot. I doubt I spend much time on it anymore as I feel it was complete after your initial edit and advice given. Red Leg Leo (talk) 10:39, 6 July 2020 (MDT)

Understandable, didn't enjoy the anon edits either. Feeling similar about Jedi while playing. All I can think that could be potentially added are maybe Jedi subclasses and more powers. Otherwise this is in a very good place (TheGamer (talk) 19:17, 6 July 2020 (EST)

Anon Edits

Checking back in because my Jedi was out of commission for 2 weeks. Most of these anon edits have started putting Jedi back into the opposite direction towards power creep. There's a lot of utility in the Jedi class at this time. It's not the Barb class, you don't just hit things till they die. You knock things prone and then hit them till they die. A character at Lv 5 can now do 10 Force Chokes that have 5d4 damage at level 5 and attack twice a turn. The force power increased has turned a lv 5 Jedi Guardian into a lv 5 Fighter and lv 5 Sorcerer. Lv 5 Jedi should NOT be on the same level as a lv 10 multiclass. That's not even telling how Consular class was effectively made useless.

To the Anons editing, you realize the more overpowered you make Jedi, the less likely it is your DM will put up with it? All it takes is you ruining a single session, the DM killing you off in the next session and refusing homebrew. Most DMs dont even accept home brew for this reason. Magic users are limited by spell amount, Jedi are not. You can Force Freeze one turn then do 10 different powers the next 10 turns. That's ontop of how powerful Guardian and Sentinel already are. I don't want this to turn into an edit war so if you're making sweeping changes to balancing. Please explain your reasoning on the talk page.

Otherwise nearly all these changes are being reverted. Mage hand has been buffed so that even Lv 1 Jedi will feel different. Guardian with three attacks at Lv 11 is fine. Guardian that can use Force destruction twice for over 200 damage and keep force choking is not. Want to use the only the Force? Play Consular. Think of it this way. Lv 1-4: Padawan (Young Ashoka) Lv 5-10: Jedi Knight (Anakin Skywalker) Lv 11-15 Jedi Master (Mace Windu) Lv 16-20 Jedi Grandmaster (Yoda)

Changes Made

Force power amount lowered to just above previous. Low level Jedi should still feel unique. Drops off at lv 4. Keeps Consular's Force abilities unique.

Consular given a slight buff in force points. Wis modifier added to double force points at each level. Force powers like Force Destruction will be available to it at Lv 5, though it would cost all its force points. Balances the advantages Guardian and Sentinel now have from force point increase.

Powers of some force abilities increased. No you can't use Suggestion or Dominate Person at Lv 1. Those are easily Lv 6-8 Spells and you'd only be able to use them once till a rest in another class.

Some quotes edited.

(Future Notice) In the meantime since I'm currently in a long campaign as a Consular Jedi (Lv 7 currently) and everyone is currently inside due to the world situation. I'll take the time to watch over the page for future players who want to bring a Jedi into their own games. Currently in a perfect balance where my character can have their own epic moments (Using Force Recharge to kill 10 enemies in 4 turns to stop a TPK) but also let other classes shine. (TheGamer (talk) 12:09, 29 July 2020 (EST)

Thank you so much for all your help. Red Leg Leo (talk) 17:37, 15 August 2020 (MDT)

Tags

Removing Category:5e Class Nonvariant makes it look like this class has not been tagged. Arquebus (talk) 19:26, 16 December 2020 (MST)

Not it doesn't. The page has tags. It doesn't show up on a user created dpl for misc tags that are redundant or vague. Red Leg Leo (talk) 12:13, 17 December 2020 (MST)

What is a user created dpl? Arquebus (talk) 15:48, 21 December 2020 (MST)

A user created dpl is a dynamic page list that allows data to be compiled. You've created at least one here: 5e Low Content Classes. Red Leg Leo (talk) 08:32, 30 December 2020 (MST)

Adding some balance changes. . .

Hi All, it's been a year since some significant changes were made, and when I discovered this page. Hope everyone's had a good year. I see the new blurb at the top on the class and looking at the class, I can see the spots where more clarification should be added with balancing changes, especially on lightsaber creation for other DM's worlds. Personally for me, the Jedi class as a whole isn't incredibly OP, certainly powerful but I'd put it on the same level as a min-max Paladin or Barbarian. So if you don't like the changes. Please message me or check the revision to get the original version of the class.

I can see where abuses can be made in the worlds of other DMs so I'll be editing this to help lessen friction with the worlds' of other DMs.

I'll list the main changes as I go along. This version of Jedi will be more like one that can fit in many worlds.

-Main Changes The Maneuvers are understandably powerful. So I will be changing it to where you can only chose to learn 1 of the 4 forms at the start. They'll still be tied to Dexterity but the second half of the maneuver won't be unlockable till level 5.

For Balance reasons, saving throw will be changed from Dex, Wis to Str, Wis. Leaving the class with a proficiency with one very common saving throw and one not so common. It's understandably strange to imagine a non-dexterous Jedi, but it was either that or Wisdom. And sadly, 5e spells are strangely tilted to Dex then Wisdom as saves. Str can be interpreted as a Jedi using the force to bolster their own and still has its use. Plus it will benefit people who wish to play strength based

All Jedi abilities are being moved around by level. I'll be using the Fighter Class and Monk Class from DnD Beyond as a good example of spreading it out. Though the Warlock class is an example of a class that has frequent empty spaces.

Biggest issue is I can't think of anything that fits for a level 17 ability. So I'll be leaving that empty for now. I don't think one is necessary. Warlock being an example.

Multiple changes to the way Forms work for Jedis to line them more with mainline fighters. This is a significant nerf. But the sheer amount of force powers available to be used to enhance normal attacks makes up for this.

Additional clarifications on use of lightsabers. If your DM doesn't allow it.

Additional changes to the way the class uses its maneuvers.

Changes to Force push and Jedi Mind trick use has been upped by 1 force point.

Extra change: Force powers amount will be changed to be similar to Warlock invocations. Added it to my word doc but that'll have to wait till I can actually add to this

I'll finish it here. These are all incredibly significant nerfs. Beyond this I don't believe any more changes are necessary. Jedi are supposed to be unique from the other classes. Does that give them situations that normal classes don't have advantage in? Yes, like a Bard has more utility than a Paladin in a social situation or using other face skills with expertise.

I have all the changes saved on a word doc. Says I need to be an autoconfirmed user to edit it. Anyway how to do so?

TheGamer(talk) 6:14, 30 July 2021 (EST)

Warlock gets a 9th level mystic arcanum at 17th level. Every class gets a class feature at every level, else you are essentially waiting two levels to get something. Casters have access to 3rd+ level spells at certain levels. So think of something for the 17th level class feature.

My mistake on that but do you have something to add at least to the page? TheGamer(talk) 6:14, 30 July 2021 (EST)

Minor Tweaks. . .

Hi All, made some minor tweaks like a Jedi can only cast Fly on creatures that aren't themselves. As well as minor changes to the forms to fit more with the lore capabilities and due to an error causing Riposte to appear twice in two different forms.

Also, as I am currently playtesting this, and I'm completely comfortable with the class as it is. Have had it in this campaign for these past 6 sessions (All but 1 had major combat). As a result I will be removing the stub and recommending others to playtest this as well. Have a lv 8 Jedi Sentinel/Rogue in my campaign that's going to Lv 14-16 by the end. This is in a 4-8 player group. (2 rare magic items per person at this point in the campaign. No, combat actually goes very quickly)

The most powerful thing about him is using the advantage from Sentinel to sneak attack consistently. I find the fact he has to constantly ensure he has 2 force points to do so keeps a cap on the force powers he can use. I can only see this type of multiclass build becoming more powerful if someone did an Elven Accuracy Sentinel/Fighter Battlemaster Multiclass. But someone could break the game easier with just an Elven Accuracy Samurai Sharpshooter alone. There's no multiclass I can think of that isn't already done in even more comedic broken ways with just the PHB. Peace Domain Cleric alone breaks a game. The Suggestion power is good and also burns through force points very very quickly. Balancing it out very well.

The sheer number of force powers and maneuvers does seem to lead to a slight overload in choice. As well as making the class very bonus action and reaction dense. Leading to some players not using any in combat. Though I think this becomes easier as one becomes comfortable with the class. This is easily the same issue for people starting their first wizards and sorcerers.

Overall for other DMs out there reading this, this class is overall balanced around 1-2 big encounters a day but can easily do the normal 5-8 as recommended by the DM Guidebook. The Jedi at your table when played smart can pull a lot of interesting ideas with their powers and maneuvers combined. This class combines the interesting parts of Monk, Fighter, and the original idea Wizard of the Coast had around Sorcerers.

I'll update what the Jedi was like if he survives till the end, if other players also play the class, and if any problems arise. Otherwise, I personally declare this done a year and 2 months from when I started helping on this!!!

TheGamer (talk) 23:33, 23th September 2021 (EST)

Playtesting Results

Hi anyone still reading this page. Been 7 months since I last checked in here. The Jedi Sentinel I was talking about has survived to the finale of my campaign and is level 17! He has also trained and brought up a Consular apprentice whose level 16. By next Saturday, the Jedi Sentinel will be officially level 20, meaning this will have been playtested from Level 6 to Level 20!

Overall, things have been incredibly balanced. The player decided to switch from Rogue/Jedi to full Jedi, upgraded their lightsaber to a +3 and changed the color from blue to orange (I highly recommend any DM reading this allow their Jedi players to do this. It's not necessary but I do recommended it. Customization makes players very happy), the Jedi and his party are stacked with magical gear, and he's lugging around an apprentice that can easily use Force Destruction 3 times per short rest.

The rest of the party consist of 4 players from 8 players and their NPC apprentices: A Lv 17 Divine Soul Sorcerer, Lv 17 Bloodhunter/Seeker (Link to Seeker homebrew below), Lv 17 Monk/Cleric, Lv 17 NPC Sharpshooter Battlemaster, Lv 17 NPC Paladin Oath of the Shield, Lv 17 NPC Samurai Fighter, Lv 17 NPC Consular Jedi. This is on top of other homebrew I've added like Master Strikes, additional feats and such.

Don't worry this wasn't even close to a superhero, high fantasy or power fantasy type campaign. They've basically been fighting for 7 IRL months through my world's equivalent of the Bronze Age Collapse with only city states existing, the ecological aftermath of a Super Volcano, and addition of multiple new deadly monsters. They've had multiple near TPK misses. You'll find that even at high levels. Players can still go down. Admittedly, diamonds are as rare in my world as they were during the Middle Ages.

For the apprentice, even with short rests the Consular hasn't broken encounter balance even during the times I had a single encounter a session. For any DM reading this whose worried about potential short rest abuse. At this high of a level, any spell that gives you an opportunity to short rest in hostile terrain can easily be dispelled by dispel magic. The enemies of the party can still keep the pressure on by just sending their equivalent of two Lv 6-7 Wizards or even two goons with multiple scrolls of dispel magic. I have found with Force Destruction that it is very useful to get out in a pinch when they were about to be discovered underneath disguises by destroying the building they're in. Or for remolding the battlefield by creating a 10ft ditch in front of the wall that enemy armies have to transverse.

I'll then give two weeks from now my final update on how Jedi handles at level 20 for both Sentinel and Consular. I'll probably pop in and add a new force power here and their over time. Maybe even a new subclass. Also I'll update if a player runs Jedi with another class like Fighter or even Paladin. Thanks to everyone who has helped along the way! Thank you especially to Red Leg Leo! Your encouragement helped me through the whole process since I started back in June 2020. Can't believe its been nearly two years working on this lol. Hope you are well!

If anyone has any questions or needs advice on what it's been like DMing for a Jedi player or even just about high level 5e combat. Ask away!

(Seeker is the homebrew class here: https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-L6sbr0H-7zrOzOj20Vb)

TheGamer (talk) 1:15, 23th March 2022 (EST)

I am doing great and really happy to see this class came out balanced. You're feedback is great to see as it includes gameplay experience. I look forward to your contributions fleshing out this class more. Revival (talk) 12:41, 9 March 2022 (MST)

Three Years On and Level 20 end results

It's been a lot longer than two weeks since the last time I was here so this'll be a very long one. Weird to think I started tweaking this class in 2020 nearly 3 years ago. Looking at the changes people have made since March 2022 and a lot are really good for clarification, balancing, and adding new powers. Seriously thank you for all your help! Bottom line up front is, The Jedi class should be similar to how WOTC wanted to do Sorcerer in beta 5e, sorcery points that could be used on a wide range of spells at any time, otherwise Jedi isn't really any different from a reflavored Warlock. Jedi is a unique class in 5e. Please treat it as such.

My players a year ago finished the long campaign and the player who was playing a Sentinel Jedi got to enjoy a level 20 Jedi with legendary equipment, the Boon of Foresight, an item that made him immune to Enchantment magic and a slew of homebrew like Master Strikes that made him incredibly powerful. That Jedi in a party of 7 other players, all with boons and legendary equipment of their own still barely won against a Level 20 Enchantment Wizard who had prep time against them, enemies who attrited them and a ritual steadily ascending the BBEG to Godhood. Yes, theory crafting is well and good but there's a reason why playtesting a class is needed. The Jedi between his force damage, lightsaber, Boon of Foresight, and reaction to gain resistance was excellent DPS and 'tank' by just keeping the enemy's attention and keeping himself in the BBEG's line of sight. Combined with his ability to just pick and choose what force ability needed to be used to barely keep the upper hand. Did a crapton of damage. That Jedi and another PC still died in the final fight sadly but the Jedi was revived. The rest barely surviving in the single digits. The other Jedi, a Lv 20 Guardian Jedi NPC with similar kit run by this player barely won a 1v1 against an Lv 20 Battlemaster Fighter by 2-4 hp.

From a DM perspective, Jedi felt in a solid place when the campaign ended and even the player commented that they had a ton of fun going from lv 5 to lv 20 with their main Character and level 1-20 with their Character's apprentice. I'll be honest, I was fairly surprised by how balanced Jedi was against just normal monsters from the Monster's Manual in combat at such a high level. There was never a moment where I was thinking "Damn that's BS. Better nip that in the bud." The only complaint the player had was that having so many powers did lead to choice paralysis at times in battle but this steadily went away as the player got an idea of what type of Jedi they wanted to be and what powers they preferred. There was a time where all they did was Call Lightening. But they also preferred it this way as the other classes felt too restrictive in the type of personalities that could be expressed through gameplay. By the end they were mixing and matching mid-combat, gameplay wise it was incredibly fun to see and encouraged creativity in other players too.

Thoughts and Patch Notes

The class was in a good place when I left it, I think all that needed to be added really was powers to be added and another subclass or two that could cover the more niche Jedi roles in Star Wars Legends lore. Instead a lot was messed with that shouldn't have been messed with. No explanation even given for why it needed to be messed with or if the person who was making it even playtested it. Or even if it worked out in their games after they did.

I suspect its a combination of two major things. People start their level 5 characters with heroes like Luke, Anakin or even Darth Vader in mind for roleplaying and wonder "Wait a minute! My level 5 character should totally be wiping encounters just like Anakin did in the Clone Wars! Or Luke with Jabba the Hutt". Not realizing that level 5 characters are supposed to be able to barely defend a medieval city or kingdom the size of Switzerland from the medieval version of slightly threatening terrorists. Pg 15 on Tiers of Playing the Player's Handbook touches on this. Such players are looking for the lv 10-15 tier of play. Such people when they make those changes go back, and then the campaign generally falls through or finishes. Said person then never comes back here even if the changes sucked. According to WOTC, nearly all DMs don't let player campaigns go above level 10 (strangely) and if they do are very quick about ending them, never staying longer than a session or two above lv 10. I think my players were level 16-20 range for 4-5 sessions over the course of a month. Practically the whole campaign was above lv 10, first 10 sessions were level 5-10. This was a long campaign that lasted over half a year with a 5-6 or even 8 hour session every Saturday. So around 10-15 sessions above level 10 but below lv 16. It's the reason WOTC barely does any adventure that doesn't end at level 12 at the absolute highest.

The other major thing is the amount of time that is needed to get to that Luke/Anakin/Vader experience and do the above from a DM perspective is something that a lot of DM understandably can't do for their players. Time constraints, scheduling, personal issues, jobs and life generally break 98% of DnD groups long before they reach even session 5 of a long campaign. Sometimes friends just drift away as well. Like I said above, it took over half a year during Covid before the Jedi player got to those epic moments you see in Star Wars movies. But those moments and highs were well-earned! And remain a vivid core memory of DnD for them, everyone else at the session, and myself even a year later. This isn't even getting into how few DMs can even properly set up lv 10 sessions are higher without breaking the world or killing their player's enjoyment.

If you're reading this and are interested in learning about how to DM for lv 10 and above, check out the Dungeon Master Option: High Level Campaigns by Skip Williams as a starter. Damn thing is 262 pages long but you can pick and choose what's important. TL;DR is that politics are incredibly important and how magic affects politics. There is another more esoteric way of looking at it for DMing but it's fairly difficult to impossible for us to 'get it' in the modern world. It's to look at ancient stories like in Ancient Greece from the perspective of people who lived in that time. Hercules to them was pretty much a lv 20 character with divine boons. Men like Socrates weren't idiots and 'knew' those stories were real just as much we know Finland is real. They had explanations for why things were the way they were from their spiritual perspectives. Learn just the basics of that and DMing fantasy worlds for players becomes stupidly easy.

Patches

I'm removing force power limits (again) and lowering the force points (again). The sheer amount of force points given made Consular subclass useless (again) and put the Jedi class on the road to be severely overpowered. (again) This is probably due to as stated above. By level 5 a Jedi could do 50d4 damage in 10 rounds by Force choke alone. You're oneshotting young adult dragons on average rolls again. Then do it all again an hour later after a short rest. I'll also be lowering the force cost of more utility spells to allow more range at lower levels. If the Jedi feels underpowered in contrast to other Adventurers, either take more short rests or if your DM is doing one resource intensive encounter a session. Ask for more encounters. Telekinesis modified. Making it level based would get rid of issues of low level characters being too powerful or high level ones being too weak but that would require playtesting, not theory crafting. This'll suffice for now. The fact that Jedi can restore on short rests and don't have an anti-magic counter is a good balance.

Thanks again to everyone for all the excellent corrections over the last year! Please playtest Jedi for at least 5-8 sessions with at least 2-3 hard encounters per session before changing things again. Your DM letting their players Nova once a session is a severe DM issue. Not a Jedi being too underpowered.

TheGamer(talk) 12:59, 12 April 2023 (EST)

Force Powers Known

So I understand the force power limit was removed. However the force power feature still says, quote: "Force Powers Known: In addition to the powers listed below, you know a number of powers according to your Jedi level as listed on the Jedi Table." But now there's nothing on the Jedi table concerning force powers. I kind of get the impression that you just simply get access to all of the force powers at once. (I don't know for sure, please correct me if I'm misinterpreting the statements on why the limit was removed.) But either way, I believe the either something should be on the table, or that the feature concerning force powers should be changed to reflect this. I would edit this myself but I want to get a good idea of what the actual intent is before I edit anything again, rather than just make an edit only for it to be changed back.

Effingcrazygames

Hi! Yep the intention is for a player to have potential access to all force powers underneath the Force Powers List from level 1. The limit is the amount of Force points they have each level. A level 1 Jedi may only be able to do a Force Choke and Animal Bond before having to short rest or long rest to regain their force points. Then next short rest use Force Barrier and Force Disarm. There's no limit here besides the amount of Force points. So a Jedi has access to all powers but just may not be strong enough to use some powers yet or use too many before their next rest. A level 20 Jedi on the other hand would be strong enough. I'll change this soon.

TheGamer(talk) 16:43, 17 April 2023 (EST)