Talk:Demon Hunter (5e Class)

Ok so I honestly completely forgot about this I created this maybe like 2 years ago idk but I love everything that you all put into this and it made me happy seeing people use this class I honestly thought it would dissipate into the background I would love to hear some of the stories of you or your players using this class even if you did Nerf it or otherwise my email is fatalscythe7@gmail.com if you wish to share some of your stories.

Repeat

You Repeat the same line in Greater Meta, You gain advantage on all attack rolls made during the transformation., shows up twice.

Cool Idea

Got a player using this class in my campaign. Its an awesome concept but I had to go through and nerf most of it to make sure he wouldn't just outshine all the other classes.

Simply put I will go through this list and pick apart some of the bigger things you listed

You seem to only talk about the things demon hunters get that Warlocks don't, but what about things warlocks get that AD's don't? AD's are forced into specific benefits, while a warlock has the choice to choose with boon they want.

I'm curious where you get the math for "39 spells per day at level 20." It is clearly stated that they are allowed 8 spell slots (that are all level 7) and can recharge the spell slots at the cost of their life *up to their charisma modifier*. Assuming someone has 20 Charisma, they would have 13 spells a day (day being post-full rest). So how did you get 39? I feel this is one of the biggest things that concern you, but I'm not seeing your math add up.

On the note of added "skills" and "tools", it was intended to be a standalone class with NO generic backstory. Therefore if you take a generic class and add a backstory, they get the same tool proficiencies and skills learned at 1st level, albeit the demon hunter has slightly less flexibility as they cannot go completely random with their backstories. I feel this isn't stressed enough so I will add it in the future.

• The Warlock has three "dead levels" when they get higher level spells (3rd 4th and 5th level spells). This class always gets new perks, even as they go up to 7th level.

What? I don't see an issue with this. I actually think ALL the 5e classes need to be buffed in this regard, nothing is more FRUSTRATING than leveling up, and NOT getting anything for doing it. ESPECIALLY at later levels, where leveling is EXTREMELY lengthy, in that regard I split some of the skills that would have been bundled together, so that you always feel like you get something when you level.

• Arcane Devastator gets SIX perks from their path at level 3. Warlocks get two from their path at level 1 and one the path they take (one ability) at level 3.

That is correct. This class is different in that it RELIES on it's sub-classes to fully deck it out. UNLIKE most other classes your archetype has a HUGE impact on your playstyle. Why are you condemning something that differs from what you have seen previously? Isn't that the point of this?? The intention with the subclasses, is that you fill out how YOU want to play the game. So if you compare JUST the archetypes with OTHER GENERIC archetypes I could definitely see why you would think "omg OP", but keep in mind these are part of the actual class itself, not an extension of one like most other archetypes.

• Why would anyone be a warlock if this class is available? In fact, why would everyone not take Arcane Devastator?

Warlocks have more options to choose from to boost their abilities. Lets be real, does anyone actually play JUST warlocks? Unless they are going hardcore, but lets be real. Warlocks were created, I feel, simply to be multiclassed. Lets look at Warlocks for a moment, MOST of the things that make the class good, happen within the first FOUR LEVELS of taking the class. TWO levels for some of the best stuff. The class was MEANT to be multiclassed basically. --Demicus (talk) 01:34, 8 August 2016 (MDT)

While I understand the opinion it sucks to get nothing when you level up, there is balancing that takes place. This class is way OP for many reasons Marasmusine has written. Try to set aside bias and bring something that's healthy for the game system. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 17:28, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Why would anyone be a warlock if this class is available? In fact, why would everyone not take Arcane Devastator?

You get:

• More spells slots than the warlock from level 5 on, plus
• You can convert hp into spells and the amount hp its costs to create a spell slot is laughably small, and ridonculous if you have magical healing available, since it just means at 11th level you need to spend 50 gp on healing potion per spell slot to eliminate the downside. Since everyone will quickly have a 20 Cha, an Arcane Devastator effectively gets 11 5th level spells per short rest, which is 33 a day assuming two short rests since it all recharges then. Absurdly OP. They start with as many or more spell slots than a warlock, and the Eldritch Boon is actually only a small part of the problem, but it alone adds 15 7th level spells per day, or 105 spell levels. The warlock, at 20th level, only gets 90 spell levels per day if there are two short rests, total, including mystic arcanum. This feature which is a small part of the overpoweredness of the Demon Hunter's spell casting is more powerful that all of the warlocks spellcasting. I go into more detail below to show the scope of the problem especially with respect to the Arcane Devastator.
• The weapon bonding of the blade pact
• Unless you foolishly have not taken Arcane Devastator, the Tome of Shadows of the Tome pact
• As Arcane Devastator, you get more spells known than the warlock, in addition to Demon Hunters getting more spell slots by far, since warlocks don't know all the 8th and 9th level warlock spells, and apparently ADs do. AT what point then do we stop calling it the "Warlock Spell List" since Demon Hunters know and control it far better than warlocks?
• As Arcane Devastator gets far too many Spell Slots per day. ADs can cast up to 39 7th level spells per day at level 20 plus one 8th and one 9th level spell, assuming two short rests if they have money enough (or a cleric handy) to heal the 90 hit points it cost you to add 15 of those. Oh wait, no, at level 20 the 15 spells per day from Eldritch Boon cost 0 hp. My bad. Compare that to the warlock's TWELVE spells of FIFTH level per day plus one 6th, one 7th, one 8th and one 9th, assuming the same two short rests. That is 290 spell levels per day (8 slots x 3 post-rest periods x 7th level, plus one 8th level plus one 9th level) vs the warlock's 90 (4 slots x 3 post-rests period x 5th level, plus one 6th level, one 7th level, one 8th level and one 9th level). That 90 number is a very rough measure of daily power, but compared to 290 there is clearly a problem.
• For a different point of comparison, I note that the "full casters" (wizard, sorcerer, bard, cleric, druid) get 89 spell levels per day, which balanced against the warlock, so 290 gives the AD the power of more than three full casters. Even if a sorcerer converted all of her sorcery points to spell slots, that nets you only an additional 14 spell levels, done efficiently, so they's get 103 spell levels at the cost of completely writing off their major class ability, metamagic, for that day.
• As Arcane Devastator, you can force opponents to have disadvantage on on spell saving throws by hiding. If you can hide you can do this an unlimited number of times per day.
• You get two rounds of Expertise
• You start with Light and Medium Armor (not just Light). UNFAIR! Why not shield proficiency??? Was that an oversight [/sarcasm]
• You get a smattering of martial weapons, when Rune Bonding should do the same trick anyway. So, really the added weapon proficiency is just an FU to the warlock, right? Or were you afraid you DM wouldn't let you start at level 3?
• You get four skills to the Warlock's two
• You get two tool proficiencies, to the Warlock's zero (including thieves tools, for some reason)
• The Warlock has three "dead levels" when they get higher level spells (3rd 4th and 5th level spells). This class always gets new perks, even as they go up to 7th level.
• Arcane Devastator gets SIX perks from their path at level 3. Warlocks get two from their path at level 1 and one the path they take (one ability) at level 3.

In my opinion, this class has the power of two or three normal classes. It's like a gestalt class from 3.5 combining Bladelock, Tomelock and Rogue, but with better armor, weapon and tool proficiencies than any one them (and some subclasses get extra "Actions" which is unheard of, and or extra attacks that steal the Fighter's ability to get more than one Extra Attack in a round. I can see having a concept of a stealthy warlock...but when you add rogue like abilities to them, you are supposed to also taketh away from the other powers. As is noted below the main drawback of interfering with rests is a cost that is imposed on the whole part. It just screams, "let's hide for one more long rest." 2601:844:4207:9A0:808F:9FCB:5A08:3462 00:01, 25 July 2016 (MDT)

• Demon Foreseeing. What does this do. What is the effect of having "great strife while you sleep" - is it only descriptive? As for rolling a 1, this is disruptive to the flow of the game. I don't think anything should interfere with the way resting works. Everyone's resources are depleted, the party needs to get some HD/HP and spells back, they need a long rest to progress in the adventure. Then this guy rolls a 1. Even they have to proceed anyway, with this guy now a liability; or they have the tedium of taking another long rest. Marasmusine (talk) 06:03, 20 April 2016 (MDT)

I have fixed the latent issues

It was just as SgtLion said, there were random people messing with the page, I took the liberty of reverting it back to my original idea, but also changed a few things about the class. I will be updating it as I balance it and give it more of it's own sort of vibe. It certainly has come a long way, and I'm constantly thinking about new ways to improve it and balance it. I appreciate all of your input. I am the original author, and as such have created a username to keep the knowledge of the creator intact so you know when to delete changes not made by me. Also I see there's no tag for my identifier on this message, but i see there's one for yours? Dunno maybe I'm missing a piece of info I need to be putting in. The name you should be looking for is Demicus.

If I don't see a response to this, I will delete your post in a weeks time, as it will no longer be relevant.

Edit: I forgot to mention I explicitly did not include a backstory for patrons in the class, as it is assumed that the DM will know what they want. This is just a baseline class and the DM's world will need to paint a picture of how it fits. Maybe your world there are fledgling angels that need to prove themselves through combat, and they do that through demon hunters. Maybe it's just a way for angels to channel their rage so they remain celestial. It's up to that certain DM's discretion.

Relentless Assault

Relentless Assault Starting at 3rd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action.

Is this supposed to be "per long rest"? As written, it's every single turn.

Relentless Assault

Relentless Assault Starting at 3rd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action.

Is this supposed to be "per long rest"? As written, it's every single turn.

A Bit Much

Giving a player a legendary action seems like too much, even if it's only one.

Unnatural Endurance

this ability seems to be useless due to this class having no abilities involving exhaustion and this mechanic is normally optional is some campaigns.

Great Idea!

One of my players decided to play this class, so I was obliged to look it over. Very cool concept. I did find I had a lot of trouble balancing out the demon hunter player's bonus actions and attacks and free eldritch blasts. The other guys were running vanilla classes and were relegated to playing support for demon hunter. BTW do I read that right that at 20th level this class could cast 9 (or 11) 9th level spells per long rest?

Please don't delete this class

I'm currently playing as a demon hunter and to be honest, I'm at big disadvantage to all the other spellcasters in the party for the fact I have limited spell slots and I multiclassed into it so he was never meant to be a spellcaster but I love the class and don't think it's OP at all.

Old Demon Hunter

I've saved an old copy of this class here in case anyone's curious. Quincy (talk) 15:09, 15 January 2018 (MST)

Which I might, was very much imbalanced and was slated was for deletion.--Blobby383b (talk) 17:40, 15 January 2018 (MST)

A fair description. Quincy (talk) 17:50, 15 January 2018 (MST)

Starting Wealth

I'm using this class in my new adventure with new characters, so I need to know how much is the starting Wealth. Is it the same as the Warlock?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Poltrique (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Yes it would be, I just added it in, 4d4 x 10.--Blobby383b (talk) 16:36, 24 March 2018 (MDT)

Featured Article Nomination

— This article became a featured article! 20:47, 4 February 2020 (MST)

Here it goes! This page is well written, compellingly flavored, and I personally consider it to be one of the best and most fun classes ever produced by this wiki. I would dearly love to see it become a featured article! Based Quincy (talk) 16:43, 27 July 2019 (MDT)

(3/0/0) 100% Approval

Support

• Per the above. Based Quincy (talk) 13:05, 28 July 2019 (MDT)

• Comment — I am flattered that you think that this class is good enough to be a featured article and although I do agree that the class is oozing with flavor and unique features, I believe that it could get even better by adding a decent bit more background info and as well giving it a good look through. As of right now, I need a bit of time to catch up on things, but I should be able to get back to this soon, hopefully with the support of you and others.--Blobby383b (talk) 17:22, 13 August 2019 (MDT)

• Support — With the recent fixes/changes to the class, (features tidied up as to make them as clear and concise as possible, background info almost entirely redone to better capture what a demon hunter is, and a personalized demon hunter spell list added to the class as the old spell list(warlock) was less thematic and had too simple) I feel that the demon hunter class has finally reached the point where it is worthy to become a featured article. I agree with Quincy that the class itself is oozing with flavor, but it also really think that it gives those who play it a ton of options in what type of demon hunter they want to play through the class's subclasses and choice of devil or angelic patron.--Blobby383b (talk) 17:29, 7 September 2019 (MDT)

• Comment. at 2nd level this class a feature dependent on having eldritch blast but what if the player didn't choose the cantrip? I suggest giving them the cantrip and allowing them to choose one more, instead of having the choice of 2. I think the subclasses are pretty cool looking too. Overall, I need to print this out. I can support once level 2 isn't dead if the character doesn't have EB (or there is a good reason to leave it as is explained).   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   08:50, 24 October 2019 (MDT)

• Support. Changes made and muy perfecto.   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   08:51, 1 November 2019 (MDT)

Original Creator Thoughts

As the original creator of this class, it's fun to go back and see just how many people have used this class and made changes to it. When I started this I just wanted to custom make my own class to play in a campaign. That quickly grew into me trying to balance the class for everyone to share and use. I might disagree on many of the changes I see today (most notably charisma -> wisdom for spellcasting), but it makes me feel good knowing that people care enough about this class to continue editing it even after 4 years, and even reaching a permanent state! Thanks for all the support and improvements you've made.

If you want to reach me, please email me at sresttv@gmail.com

Here's the link to the last known change I made that I remember. (I'm Demicus and the original creator, but I lost my login info apparantly) There's a good chance I made changes to it since this revision but don't remember, being that it was several years ago.

https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Demon_Hunter_(5e_Class)&oldid=785613

Sres (talk) 12:34, 3 April 2020 (MDT)

Glad you checked in on things and liked it. I gotta agree its great when the community collaborates. Red Leg Leo (talk) 10:43, 4 May 2020 (MDT)

It is a surprise to see the original creator of this class pop in, especially after 4 years. Hope your doing well and thanks for starting off this class's long journey.--Blobby383b (talk) 21:03, 8 May 2020 (MDT)

Tag

I would tag this as a [[Category:Paladin Tag]][[Category:Warlock Tag]][[Category:5e Class Mashup]]. Arquebus (talk) 21:52, 23 November 2020 (MST)