Talk:Brawler (3.5e Class)

Fix 'Create New Base Class' template

I notice this again says, "NPC Class Description", just like the first class I created. This time I made sure to use the 'Create New Base Class' template. --Cúthalion 22:14, 9 February 2007 (MST)

Got it. Thanks for the heads up. —Sledged (talk) 22:18, 9 February 2007 (MST)

Let's see.

1. The dplc block says "(DnD Base Class)". It should say "(DnD Class)", right?
2. It also has a blank field where I think you want it to say "NR".
3. The Balance block should have more fields, right? Something like:

{{Balance|Not-rated|<!-- Insert name of your class here -->|DnD_Class}}

I'm just going by the changes Green Dragon made to my first class.

--Cúthalion 09:48, 10 February 2007 (MST)

So many details they all get lost so easily.

1. Yes, you're correct. It's fixed now.
2. It can stay blank. I've changed the template so that puts "NR" by default.
3. No, the template now only takes one parameter.

I should probably make Green Dragon aware of the changes. —Sledged (talk) 10:48, 10 February 2007 (MST)

I imagine you just did. :) --Cúthalion 11:19, 10 February 2007 (MST)

The dplc looks good. It works like it is right now. Also, sorry for taking so long to respond, I have been sick and have not looked at every edit yet (working.... working...). I really am sorry however I am slowly getting done (If you want to see if I have looked at your edits check Recent Changed "patrolled" - I do them all user by user). --Green Dragon 23:28, 11 February 2007 (MST)

Fixed, what was I thinking last night. The name was wrong, that was the problem. --Green Dragon 22:40, 12 February 2007 (MST)

why dose it have a 1d5 unarmed strike?, you see I don't believe they have those...lol —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zombiecow (talk • contribs) 12:41, 13 December 2007 (MST). Please sign your posts.

Thats because this discussion is for an old old class that had this same name... --Green Dragon 21:46, 15 December 2007 (MST)

Multiclassing with Fighter

With this class, multiclassing XP penalty will be the only reason characters ever take any more than two levels of fighter. If a fighter 2 takes 18 levels of brawler instead of 18 more levels of fighter, the character will get Improved Unarmed Strike, one more fighter bonus feat, and a larger Hit Die size. The only thing that will suffer is reflex and will saves, and then only marginally. —Sledged (talk) 22:47, 9 February 2007 (MST)

I see your point. Is it better now? --Cúthalion 08:05, 10 February 2007 (MST)

FYI, one reason for the imbalance was because I consider the Fighter to be disadvantaged, and another because I created the Brawler merely as a stepping stone on the way to Pugilist (not yet uploaded). --Cúthalion 09:03, 10 February 2007 (MST)

I also conceived of the Brawler as a Fighter variant, so multiclassing between them never crossed my mind. Is there a precedent for how to handle multiclassing between variants of the same class? --Cúthalion 09:08, 10 February 2007 (MST)

Ah, I see. Then the title should be changed to "Fighter Variant: Brawler (DnD Class)."

How do I do that? The same will apply to the Thug, which I just entered. --Cúthalion 11:30, 10 February 2007 (MST)

Click on the "move" tab at the top. —Sledged (talk) 19:00, 10 February 2007 (MST)

For handling multiclassing with variants, page 48 of the UA has this to say:

Multiclassing And Variant Classes

Multiclassing between variants of the same class is a tricky subject. In cases where a single class offers a variety of paths (such as the totem barbarian or the monk fighting styles), the easiest solution is simply to bar multiclassing between different versions of the same class (just as a character can't multiclass between different versions of specialist wizards). For variants that are wholly separate from the character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger—multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is probably okay. Identical class features should stack if gained from multiple versions of the same class (except for spellcasting, which is always separate).

In any case, only the first version of a favored class is treated as favored; a halfling rogue/wizard who later begins gaining levels in the wilderness rogue variant class can't treat both the rogue and wilderness rogue classes as favored, only the class gained first (in this case, rogue). Under no circumstances does spellcasting ability from multiple classes (even variants of the same class) stack. A character with levels of bard and levels of bardic sage has two separate caster levels and two separate sets of spells per day, even though the classes are very similar.

Question: How would this class interact multiclassed with the monk? —Sledged (talk) 10:48, 10 February 2007 (MST)

Hmmm. Hadn't considered that one, either. I think my inclination would be not to have the abilities stack, just use whichever class is better. What do you think? After all, the brawler is supposed to be an unarmed alternative for someone without the discipline to become a monk. Conceptually, it's halfway between a fighter and a monk.

Hey, I never wrote that anywhere in the description, did I? I'll have to remedy that.

The Pugilist prestige class, which I hope to enter this afternoon, has provisions for improving the unarmed combat abilities of a base class. --Cúthalion 11:30, 10 February 2007 (MST)

Based on the fact that the brawler only gets unarmed benfits using only fists, I'd say keep them seperate. —Sledged (talk) 19:03, 10 February 2007 (MST)

Class Balance

I suppose this is as good an occasion as any to bring this up. I wrote up a spreadsheet comparing the abilities of the various classes (which, unfortunately, I can't show you because the upload facility only allows images). I tried various weighting heuristics, but no matter high I sliced it, the SRD Fighter class always came out looking disadvantaged. In the most favorable analysis, I still had to bump it up to d12 HD and 2 good saving throws to balance it out with the other classes, particularly combat-oriented classes and clerics. (I found it nearly impossible to integrate wizards and sorcerers into the analysis, since their strength does not build incrementally in the same way.)

Now, I readily confess that I've only had minimal experience with 3.5 edition, and I don't think I've ever played a character above 10th level in any edition. (Nor would I want to.) My analysis focuses almost exclusively on the first 10 levels. (Originally, I only looked at the first 6 levels, but I decided that was too shortsighted.) Yet I remain at a loss to explain this discrepancy.

1. In your (anyone's) experience, is the Fighter as powerful as other classes (ignoring arcane casters for the moment)?
   1. Is your answer different at low levels and at high levels?
2. How many fighter bonus feats would you trade for:
   1. uncanny dodge?
   2. evasion?
   3. trapfinding?
   4. sneak attack?
   5. rage?
   6. wild shape?
   7. good Reflex saves?
   8. good Will saves?
   9. fast movement?
   10. favored enemy?
   11. unarmed damage as a monk?
   12. flurry of blows as a monk?
   13. detect evil as a paladin?
   14. turn undead as a paladin?
   15. turn undead as a cleric?
3. How many standard feats is weapon specialization worth?
4. What is the airspeed of an unladen swallow?
5. Is there any way for me to upload my spreadsheet for comments?

Thanks. --Cúthalion 09:03, 10 February 2007 (MST)

I see the fighter as underpowered.

1. I have seen it as good if not better than other classes; at lower levels. I see it as - at lower levels it is better than other classes (for the first 3?) then it kinda tuckers out and becomes a very bad un-flavorful character choice.
2. Not sure, a lot more than the fighter gets, especially to make all these abilites better and better (like some classes give).
3. 2 or 1?
4. Shit................ 14mph?
5. Ask Blue Dragon if their is a way to upload spreadsheets and make them visible to other people. He should know of a way.

--Green Dragon 23:18, 11 February 2007 (MST)

is the Fighter as powerful as other classes (ignoring arcane casters for the moment)? Is your answer different at low levels and at high levels? I'll answer it this way: its dependent on magical weapons and PrC.

A base class Lv 20 Fgt is dependent on magical weapons to do damage (which may or not be common), and he needs either lots of specialization or lots of items. Either way, a player needs to think about char-op early. With CW PrC or BoED you have a lot more room, but that only lessens the problem (eg Drow Weapons Master). I have never seen an epic Fgt because everyone goes for BoED stuff anyway. It helps if the party mage will craft weapons for our him, but still unlikely.

My point is, at high levels its a moot question. Fighters stand out at low levels (unless there is a Pal), and then multi-off. Think of Fgt as a class to access PrC. Oh, to answer your question, it is on par at low levels. --Pwsnafu 21:23, 13 March 2007 (MDT)

Alright, I SUPER edited this class, please at least keep a backup of my changes, if you feel like reverting them. However it makes this class a lot more balanced, and quite a bit less complex for quicker combat.

Mark for deletion

Please delete this class. Thank you. --Cúthalion 06:53, 22 March 2007 (MDT)

Please use Category:Candidates for Deletion. Thank you. --Green Dragon 00:02, 23 March 2007 (MDT)

If you dont mind me asking why is Brawler marked for deletion --Lt.Dan 19:18, 13 December 2007 (MST)

Cúthalion created a brawler class a while ago, and then decided to have it deleted. Then another user decided to make a class by the same name. This talk page is left-over from the first brawler class. —Sledged (talk) 20:30, 13 December 2007 (MST)

ok i got confused --Lt.Dan 11:43, 14 December 2007 (MST)

Rating - 8/10

I think the class will make a great class for D&D players who like the monk class but not the honor code --Lt.Dan 19:15, 13 December 2007 (MST)

I am sorry to let you know, however one is not allowed to rates one owns class. Sorry about that, however this rating will not be counted. --Green Dragon 20:40, 15 December 2007 (MST)

Brawler is not my class someone i kow made it not me --Lt.Dan 11:02, 17 December 2007 (MST)

Well, in that case, the rating will be used. Sorry about that. --Green Dragon 12:04, 17 December 2007 (MST)

This rating has been nullified with the implementation of the new Rating System. --Green Dragon 14:49, 20 February 2008 (MST)

Confusing....

I was going to use this class for one of my character but I don't understand this class. For Licking you Wounds +1 it says "Heal yourself 1D5\ per 1/2 your ranks in Heal." what does "1D5\ per 1/2" mean? And what about hide the pain? "A Brawler won't take a knee at low HP as most character would." Knee? What does that mean? And what does the +1 or +2 mean after those 2 abilities? Is that a bonus you get for using the ability at that level? Please explain. And reword the abilities. It would be a great class. --Xdeletedx 17:17, 24 February 2008 (MST)

BTW im going to help fix this class up --Xdeletedx 17:23, 24 February 2008 (MST)

Please feel free to help it along. --Green Dragon 20:43, 24 February 2008 (MST)

Im sorry guys this was my first class, i appreciate the help be please don't change to much i thought it was a good idea, i was slowly working on it

I'm going to be qualifying some language and making it make sense. A lot of the effects either don't provide a save or don't have an attack vs AC. I'll be fixing this. --Reshy (talk) 04:01, 16 August 2015 (MDT)

Alright, I went over some of it and made more of it make sense, mainly introducing saves, uses per day, and action/attack types to the maneuvers. I don't know what to do with Block and Punch as as written it makes no sense. I removed the Brawler's Armor Proficiency, because as written you lose the ability to progress in brawler because you entered a class that provides armor proficiency (itself). I don't really know what do do with Power Bomb, Suplex, or Forceful Uppercut. The first two are basically the same thing, the latter is just bizarre and kind of nonsensical. As two of the abilities granted powers already replicated by feats, I included those as bonus feats in place of the existing ability. I would recommend reducing the reliance on homebrew feats, perhaps consider giving the Brawler a Competence Bonus to grapple checks equal to 1/2 their brawler level (or so) in place of Greater Grapple and Master Grapple. The class also makes no allowances for natural weapons, should you be a race with claws (like a Kobold or Lizardfolk) --Reshy (talk) 04:45, 16 August 2015 (MDT)

Stances

can someone tell me if the stances are balanced, please? I put them thinking that making a stance would give you some kind of advangtage. Put your suggestions up as well. --Xdeletedx 18:53, 25 February 2008 (MST)

How many times a day can the brawler be in a stance? --Green Dragon 23:35, 25 February 2008 (MST)

it can be anytime per day but you can only use it during encounters and 2 rounds per point of constitution they have --Xdeletedx 12:51, 26 February 2008 (MST)

So, does it decrease the constitution after it is used? The reason I am asking is because, how it is currently written, one could constantly stay in a stance. After it comes to an end they could start another once again. I feel the wording on this ability could be improved. --Green Dragon 23:16, 26 February 2008 (MST)

That's a good idea. --Xdeletedx 23:41, 26 February 2008 (MST)

You now take constitution damage. --Xdeletedx 23:45, 26 February 2008 (MST)

Hm, the wording is a little controversial right now... "...and can't use it until all of your constitution is healed. These are the.." That means, after every time one uses a stance, they cannot use another until their constitution is full? I think maybe it should state something like "If the player has 5 or less constitution they cannot enter a stance". --Green Dragon 00:20, 28 February 2008 (MST)

Thank you for that --Xdeletedx 02:29, 28 February 2008 (MST)

Personally, I think it would be better to make it a per encounter thing- you can go into a stance once per encounter for one round per two constitution points, and cannot use the same or another stance until the encounter ends. --Sam Kay 14:18, 1 March 2008 (MST)

Saves

The saves on the table are messed up. They should either be good or poor, not somthing in between... --Sam Kay 13:34, 11 March 2008 (MDT)

Ill fix it, the creator put it --Xdeletedx 00:19, 12 March 2008 (MDT)

sorry i wasn't exactly thinking--SPAMAGEDAMAGE

Wouldn't a brawler or any other kind or restler/pit fighter/whatever need to be pretty quick? As in, high reflex save? Just a thought. --EDFRIEND

Just wonderin, a monk has good saves on all saves, so if this is a nonlawful version of that, wouldn't a brawler too? --sm4rt_one

I agree, this change has been made. If anybody believes this is unfair, please let me know. --SPAMAGEDAMAGE

IP/New User Check

We should monitor the IPs or new/one-use editors that discuss on this page. Authors should not utilize false accounts to create consensus.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   17:07, 27 October 2009 (MDT)

Balance

Discussion moved from User talk:Green Dragon/Archive 18#3.5e Class Brawler. --Green Dragon 00:44, 30 December 2010 (MST)

I've been using this web site for ages and it's awesome, a player notified me of this class. At 6th level he gets a special ability called fair fight, I was just looking at it and thought it was... well a little overpowered/little... silly (sorry if that offends btw.)

This basically entails that people make a save or drop there weapons because it would be unfair otherwise... this gives a huge advantage to the brawler, as well as seeming silly as people who want him dead wouldn't think that they should kill him fairly (mostly) and those who would can normally be persuaded/ goaded into it. The skill might be relevant if the brawler had any actual arcane/divine powers but other then that he does not.

Anyway, asides from that it is an awesome class, a monk without the code of laws and from what I've seen of it a very balanced class except that.

Constructive criticisms ahoy! (Btw, i let my player have a feat rather then the ability) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pagan Angel (talk • contribs) 19:32, 20 December 2009 (UTC). Please sign your posts.

Flurry of blows

It says that the brawler can use flurry of blows a number of times equal to 1/2 his class level(rounded up) + his Strength Modifier. Over how much time? per day, per encounter? Furyofaseraph 09:07, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Per encounter sorry for the confusion--SPAMAGEDAMAGE 18:07, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it starts off weak but then gets really strong. --67.165.74.163 02:09, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this is some of the best wording i have seen for a class. --67.165.74.163 02:09, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the class is good but not better than the original monk. --67.165.74.163 02:09, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the class is interesting and takes the best parts of the monk and adds some cool stuff to it. --67.165.74.163 02:09, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Rating

Power - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because it is like a monk but better in just about every way from hit dice to features --173.245.50.158 22:00, 12 September 2011 (MDT)

Wording - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because many of the abilities such as "tolerance rating" are ambiguous --173.245.50.158 22:00, 12 September 2011 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because format is exceptional --173.245.50.158 22:00, 12 September 2011 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it seems like a fun class, I am going to give it a try after I change how strong it is --173.245.50.158 22:00, 12 September 2011 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 4/5 This class is packin' some heat, but several of its features are weak or silly (The stances, for example.) --Raweno 12:27, 5 February 2012 (MST)

Wording - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because Many of the Class features lack coherence, and most are difficult to decipher: the best example is the ability that makes you difficult to flank. There is a very nice uncanny dodge Ability that would do well instead of the crazy skill check. --Raweno 12:27, 5 February 2012 (MST)

Formatting 5/5 No problems here. --Raweno 12:27, 5 February 2012 (MST)

Flavor - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because this is a soild idea. I like the opening text especially. The only reason that the flavor did not score a 5 is the Other classes section, where the text becomes weak. --Raweno 12:27, 5 February 2012 (MST)

Recent Edits

Some edits were made recently by some random IP user that removed some skills from brawler and replaced/added skills that are really broken. (i.e low level knocking things prone for 2d6 rounds + dazed)--173.245.56.191 00:21, 7 August 2012 (MDT)

Heh, that was me. Though I see no one has reverted, or significantly altered it. General feelings on my simplification of the class? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 174.1.107.93 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Rating

Balance - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because --50.189.7.171 19:40, 22 April 2014 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because --50.189.7.171 19:40, 22 April 2014 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because --50.189.7.171 19:40, 22 April 2014 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because --50.189.7.171 19:40, 22 April 2014 (MDT)

Rating

Balance -5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because --50.189.7.171 19:59, 22 April 2014 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because --50.189.7.171 19:59, 22 April 2014 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because --50.189.7.171 19:59, 22 April 2014 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because --50.189.7.171 19:59, 22 April 2014 (MDT)

Rating

Balance - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because the class out ACs a knight with full plate and a tower shield. Perhaps give it a lower AC to OP ratio? I've played an entire campaign with a Brawler as an Ally. --76.29.232.22 11:30, 12 November 2014 (MST)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a X out of 5 because --76.29.232.22 11:30, 12 November 2014 (MST)

Formatting - X/5 I give this class a X out of 5 because --76.29.232.22 11:30, 12 November 2014 (MST)

Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a X out of 5 because --76.29.232.22 11:30, 12 November 2014 (MST)

Clarification Requested: Wisdom from Power ability

"Wisdom from Power: At 2nd level, a Brawler uses her Strength modifier in place of her Wisdom modifier for ability use."

But none of the class abilities for Brawler actually _use_ WIS, so I'd appreciate some clarification on what exactly "for ability use" encompasses in this case: When using WIS-based skills (i.e. Spot) or ability checks? Will Saves (i.e. the Steadfast Determination feat, but using STR instead of CON)? Class Abilities from other multiclasses that use WIS (i.e. if you multiclass into Swordsage, or even gaining WIS-based spellcasting by multiing into Cleric)? Or basically does it mean 'use STR instead of WIS for anything that uses WIS'?