Talk:Brains Over Brawn (3.5e Feat)

^ Only if you have no idea what you're talking about, look at things in a vacuum, and are just generally oblivious to common sense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lord Nevermore (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

let's try to set egos aside and talk about the legitimacy of the page. I saw this while going through new pages and would prefer it to be {{needsbalance}} instead of {{delete}}. Marasmusine made good points that feats in the Player's Handbook give +2 and this easily gives more this. It is fair to say Brains Over Brawn is not balanced. ~ BigShotFancyMan ^{talk contributions} 12:06, 13 March 2019 (MDT)

I came to this page via Special: Random, so I didn't notice it was a new page. You're right, I should have used needsbalance instead of delete. Marasmusine (talk) 10:54, 14 March 2019 (MDT)

Nah, he didn't think things through and just looked at it in a vacuum, as previously stated. There's basically three types of characters that would be interested in something like this. The first is an Intelligence-based character (aka caster) who almost always will not have a single one of the associated skills as class skills, thus they will never be above (level/2) in ranks for classes that already struggle to account for skills needed to function in their chosen role. And we all know how often a Wizard needs to Climb, Hide, Jump, and Swim as opposed to casting Levitate, Invisibility, and so on. The second is a so-called "gish" who's likely going to have a high Strength and/or Dexterity score nearly on par with their Intelligence, and will again be struggling to cover all the skills they need for both aspects of their character. The third is an Intelligence-based character (again, aka caster) who's dipping into other classes and/or burning feats in order to gain the skills as class skills and/or acquire the skill points needed for them. Not only that, but the second and third types are also likely sacrificing spellcasting progression in order to do so.

This is as opposed to the ridiculousness Marasmusine threw at his insulting accusations about it, counting in skills the character already has (hence his "12 skills!" which covers all of the Int-based skills for whatever weird reason he had).

In fact, the only Int-based characters I can think of that would maybe come close to being worth scrutiny is the Factotum who already has a similar ability, and the Beguiler who's already struggling to cover all the skills they need even with 6+Int points per level due to the Charisma-based skills they typically require for their role. And those two are already issue-ridden in and of themselves, making those class issues rather than feat issues. ^talk —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lord Nevermore (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

I will just reiterate that how you describe it is not how balance works. Like things are compared to like things, just like how Marasmusine described it. Your explanation of this is how 3.5e lent itself to the broken, min/max, optimization system it is. It sounds fine and dandy but practically speaking it isn't balanced. ~ BigShotFancyMan ^{talk contributions} 06:40, 14 March 2019 (MDT)

I see, so by that argument Weapon Finesse must be horribly broken. I mean, Weapon Focus only gives a +1 to hit with a single type of weapon, whereas someone with a Dexterity of 24 and a Strength of 8 is getting a +7!!! bonus to all light and other finesseable weapons, such as the much-maligned Spiked Chain, with Weapon Focus on top of all the bonuses they get to Initiative, dodge AC, and more! And yes, that's how absurd Marasmusine's argument was. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lord Nevermore (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

That's not what weapon finesse does. Marasmusine (talk) 08:09, 14 March 2019 (MDT)

Then by all means, please tell me what Weapon Finesse does. Are you saying it doesn't let you use Dexterity in place of Strength for attack bonuses with a large selection of weapons, versus Weapon Focus which only gives a +1 to a single weapon? Oh great and powerful master of the rules that you are.

I think the feats you are looking for comparison is SRD:Skill Focus, SRD:Diligent, SRD:Stealthy, SRD:Persuasive, etc. There are many of them so I understand it can get confusing.

This feat allows you to add an additional ability score bonus on top of the bonus you are already getting. Unlike the Weapon Finesse feat which replaces the ability score you use. Weapon Focus is separate of it all as it is a building block numerous other feats that stacks bonuses. I hope this breakdown helps. ~ BigShotFancyMan ^{talk contributions} 08:12, 14 March 2019 (MDT)

(Edit ninja'd by BSFM) In fact, let's take the minimum value for Brains over Brawn, an Intelligence modifier of +1. This would be reasonable for a type of character you do not include above, say the "canny fighter" or "canny rogue". This gives me a +1 to Strength checks, to Dexterity checks, and +12 to skills (and class skills for these roles). As you can see, even at its worst, this feat is much more powerful than others of its type. Marasmusine (talk) 08:18, 14 March 2019 (MDT)

Finally, Lord Nevermore, please don't mix up my criticisms of page content with personal insult. I will never insult you as a person. I get that people are emotionally invested in what they write here, but if you don't want harsh criticism then perhaps a wiki isn't the place for your work. I don't know your comment "covers all of the Int-based skills" means, as I was counting the number of Strength and Dexterity skills. Marasmusine (talk) 09:03, 14 March 2019 (MDT)

I have no trouble with valid criticisms. Your criticisms were just absurd. And, again, this isn't a feat comparable to the ones listed above; it's more comparable to a feat like Weapon Finesse (which apparently I'm too stupid to understand, since you don't seem to think it does exactly what it says it does). But whatever, delete the fucking thing. I couldn't give less of a fuck at this point. It's just hilarious how much actually broken shit that exists on this site is just completely ignored by such amazing game designers such as yourself (who, again, apparently have no fucking clue what Weapon Finesse does).

Weapon finesse is an ability modifier swap, not an ability modifier addition. We can look at the extreme case of 24 Dex and 8 Str if you like and "take the difference", but you'd have to be fair and see how Strength 8 penalizes you - and consider what bonuses you'd get from Brains over Brawn with Intelligence 24.

I'm sorry to see that you've descended into swearing. You must think I have an omnipotent awareness of every page on the site. Marasmusine (talk) 09:15, 14 March 2019 (MDT)

What if we made this do an ability swap instead of an addition? --Green Dragon (talk) 09:19, 14 March 2019 (MDT)

Each part of this feat would have to be considered separately. Even just Intelligence-for-Dexterity checks alone might be too good for a feat (compare with, say, Insightful Reflexes from Complete Warrior). Marasmusine (talk) 10:42, 14 March 2019 (MDT)