Talk:Blacklight Mutator (5e Class)

Any questions or concerns? I would love any kind of feedback.

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Errors

Please report typos, functional or mechanics errors here

Muscle Mass

The general mutation "Muscle Mass" says that the damage of the thrown objects is shown on the table above + Strength Modifier. There is no damage table. I found this one used for the spell "Hurl Rock"

Size Damage

Tiny 2d4

Small 2d6

Medium 4d6

Large 4d10

Problems

Please check the use of mutators points. With no definable limit to how many can be used during one cast, this class becomes unmanageable for DM's.
Mutator points also should not scale off of constitution points as this provides too many upgrades at low levels that don't fit the levels of the actual PC, again leading to special circumstances needing to be created by DM's to handle this class. --73.185.215.172 12:45, 4 March 2016 (MST)

Mutator Points and mutations are separate things. But give me more information so I can see your point.

Finally, the advanced hammerfist applies a (2x) multiplier to the damage rolled on the next attack meaning that combined with the first point provided above could lead to damage in the 200's as early as lvl 5. This 2x multiplier, if kept, should be applied to the base dmg of any weapon, melee attack or blacklight ability, not the bonus of applying mutator points.--73.185.215.172 12:45, 4 March 2016 (MST)

You have to keep the hammerfist, and the x2 damage only applies to the hammerfirst, you'll lose the charge if you shift mutated weapons. It does not stack - charge, then charge again, doesn't equal x4, nor does charging again get x8. " If you hit your target, roll damage as normal and multiply the total result by 2" (simple solution)

There is an action economy (bonus, full, etc) I'm interested in what combo does what you are speaking about - at 3rd you have 3 mutations, 5 mutator points.

Initial Mutation - Presuming Hammerfist d10)

1st - Advance Hammerfist x2 so (1d10 x2) Bludgeoning

2nd - Musscle Mass would give +2 damage (1d10+2 x2)

3rd - ?

4th - ?

5th - ?

You'd have an extra attack at 5th, and an ability enhancement - so 19 Str is possible (+4) - so far I see:

(2d10+2+(Str Ability bonus) x2) + d10+2+(Str Ability bonus)

[Assuming max on each roll - 32 + 16 = 48 dmg. if both rolls crit 96.

A human variant fighter with polearm master at 5th; Str max would be 18 (+4); using superiority die and action surge:

d8+4 (+d8) + d8+4 (+d8) + d4+4 (+d8) x2; action surge d8+4 (+d8)

(assume likewise, max and crit on all rolls - 20+20+16+20 = 76 (152 w/ crits)Modnar (talk) 14:45, 4 March 2016 (MST) (MST)

Questions

Questions about the intent of the classes abilities.

Can the Brawlers make attacks? They don't seem to have any listed, aside from their explosion, of course SirSprinkles (talk) 21:14, 14 December 2015 (MST)

Also, they don't have any stats SirSprinkles (talk) 15:55, 23 December 2015 (MST)

Yes, I moved the WIP down under the name The Infected. In there is the creature stats and attacks. Brawlers are considered "summoned" and will attack as guided, or as they see fit.

(here is the brawler from Infected)

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Brawler

Brawler

Medium, Aberration, Neutral Evil AC 12 HP 3d8+9 (22 hp) Speed 50ft, Climb 30ft

STR 13 (+1) DEX 10 (+0) CON 16 (+3)

INT 4 (-4) WIS 6 (-2) CHA 5 (-3)

Saving Throw: Con +5 Skills: Athletics +3 Traits:

Poison Immunity
Blind with Tremorsense 30ft (creatures that do not move are considered invisible)
Language: None (Have telepathy with each other and their creator when within 60ft)

ACTIONS: No Anatomy: If the Brawler takes damage that would reduce it to 0 HP, roll its death saving throw immediately, if it is successful, it instead has 1 HP. Unstable Mutation: If the Brawler fails its Death Save, it becomes unstable and explodes dealing 2d8 Thunder damage and 2d8+9 piercing damage (Dexterity save for Half Damage) to all creatures within 5 feet of it.

Multi-Attack: The Brawler makes 2 claw attacks to standing creatures.
Melee Weapon:

Claw: Attack: +3 to Hit, reach 5ft, one target,

Hit: 4 (1d6+1) Slashing damage.

If the Brawler hits with two attacks the creature must make Dexterity Check or be knocked prone.

Grapple

Mauling: Grapple +4, one prone target. On success target it grappled and Restrained.

A Grappled Target is automatically mauled for d4+1 slashing and d4+1 piercing damage at the end of the Brawler's Round.

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Greater Consumption: "When you consume a creature, you can spend 1 mutation point to [...] regain one mutation point" - What? Also, Heal says "the creature’s Hit Die + the creature’s level (or number of Hit Die)." - so if it is a 4d8 creature, you regain 8d8 hit points? Marasmusine (talk) 10:53, 21 December 2015 (MST)

Thank you that is both worded poorly and formated poorly. Let's try this

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Greater Consumption – (Prerequisites: Level 3)
When you consume a creature, you can spend 1 mutation point to do one of the following:

End one disease or one condition from the following choices: blinded, deafened, paralysed, or poisoned.

Restore an additional d6 Hitpoints

Regain two mutation points

At level 9 when you consume a creature, you can spend 3 mutation points and end any one of the following effects: The ‘charmed’ condition, one curse (including attunement to a cursed magic item), any reduction to one of your ability scores, or one effect that is reducing your hit point maximum.

--Modnar (talk) 09:35, 9 January 2016 (MST)

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I don't know about the mutation points, but for the record, the heal item seems to be indicating that it takes the creatures hit die, such as a d8, and then adds it to the number of hit die. In the example you gave, that would indicate "8 (hit die being d8) + 4 (number of hit dies being 4) = 12". The wording on it is poor, admittedly, though. --Jwguy (talk) 13:36, 21 December 2015 (MST)

Yes, Jwguy that's it, and also yes.. it was poorly stated

Heal should work like this:

If you consume an 8HD (8d8) creature, you regain/heal 1d8+8 so formulaically - Heal = 1d8 + (1 point per HD of the Creature being consumed).

If you consume an 8th level fighter, you regain/heal 1d10+8

If you consumed a 8th level UA Ranger, you regain/heal 2d6+8

Does that clarify it, and does anyone have a suggestion for a better working of the description of that mechanic and premise --Modnar (talk) 09:35, 9 January 2016 (MST)

Under the Assume Form power, it states that it only works on Medium humanoids. What if you aren't of Medium size? SirSprinkles (talk) 16:00, 23 December 2015 (MST)

Good point.... I'd have to say that might better be stated that you may mutate into a form or equal size or 1 less size. Large would be Large and Medium, and Medium would be Medium and small... but that might be too much latitude. Thoughts?--Modnar (talk) 09:35, 9 January 2016 (MST)

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Which ability modifiers are used to make an attack roll? Also, what are the properties of these mutate weapons (what are they equivalent to)? Because I can only assume that they all use strength except for the whipfist which is just like a whip which could be used as a finesse, reach weapon with either Str or Dex. --Jacobas (talk) 04:52, 21 January 2016 (MST)

Claws is Finesse; Hammerfist, Blade are Strength; Whipfist is Ranged (uses Dex only); Tendrils don't use an ability modifier as there is not "to hit", its pretty much a "Get away from me" sort of attack. --Modnar (talk) 15:06, 23 January 2016 (MST)

Oh okay, thanks a lot! --Jacobas (talk) 02:57, 24 January 2016 (MST)

Just to throw this out there, I currently have a player in my DnD group playing this character. There is SOOOO much that I have to tell him "no you can't do that" with this character. Being able to one hit almost any enemy at rank 4/5 is absolutely ridiculous. He easily does x10 the damage anyone else in my group. I have to scale every encounter just to keep a chalange going. There is a lot in this character class that needs SEVERE nerfing, I've DM'd for 3 years and never seen anything this broken!

--Modnar (talk) 19:23, 14 December 2016 (MST) Can you give some more detail? What is happening, What attack(s) etc? In general if you can provide some more information (what level the character is, what are their stats, their race, what examples of attacks and scenarios to be looked at to address and revisit the problem. How are then hitting so commonly? What attack allows for unfettered massive damage in your opinion? Or are you looking for guidance on how to integrate the class into your campaign?

Um, I really don't know what else to give you. He's playing a black light mutator, does x10 the damage anyelse deals to any npc, one shots most npc, takes 90% less damage than anyone else in the group, is only lvl 4. There are no limits on the weapons so long as a character has max constitution they get infinite use of the top tier versions of any of the weapons. Like the guys posted above about 96 or whatever damage, that takes place at level 3 with this character the way it is set up. During fights I have to add an extra 100-200 hp just to keep it somewhat interesting for him. Everyone else is doing 32 at the most and that's a crit! Seriously take this character and actually run a simulation combat with a boss type npc against a lvl5 mutator. If you can solo a boss should show you well enough how messed up this characters systems are - I've DM'd for 5 years. I dont' have to do this with other player's characters!!

--Modnar (talk) 22:31, 17 December 2016 (MST) Ok, so 4th level. Thank you for that. If I understand you correctly, you're also stating that the person at 4th level has max'd Con of 20 so you've used the roll system (Which is nuts - my humble opinion). That would grant them 9 mutator points. My build supposes the matrix or Point buy system as a base starting point a max of 7 (If they razed their other attributes). So that would be grossly misaligned from the spell point/spells reference chart for FDPR *Feature Damage per Rest* and Spells per level. If that is what has been done, I'd ABSOLUTELY suggest lowering the Mutation points. Also, the class was intended to be a multi-class option, something for DM's to add INTO the character's progression. Obviously, you can be a 1st level only Blacklight Mutator.

Top tier weapon access; I don't follow - at 4th they are dealing only the damage of the weapon archetypes; 2 handed, longsword, or dagger, and they will not be able to wield magical items, only have a 2 attack per round not including bonus action attacks, while they have no proficiency with other weapons so their weapon damage scales with a nerfed Ranger/Battle Master, The BM is obviously outstripped at higher levels by Warlocks EB.

The Damage potential; At 5th level, the BattleMaster can levy 154 points of damage in a round while the DM does 96, (that's was my maths btw that you were pointing to). Obviously that's at 5th level, but you're suggesting that your player's character is dealing 100+ while other fighters are working at 7-10 damage range.

I'm curious on how the character is dealing 10x the damage in combat of other players. So if you can say what attacks, what the party make up is? (I'd be less surprised that this class is doing better than others in a group of healer build bards, or even rangers, but flummoxed if it was with more damaged focused builds like monks/fighter(battlemasters) and even Paladins).

At 5th they get their only additional attack during an attack action. At higher levels this class loses even its early edge. It really wasn't envisioned to be a full 20 level progression, but a bit of a prestige class like element as the infection was needed force them into the class. Obviously its lack of use of magical goods/weapons plays differently depending upon the magic level the DM allows, and that will greatly impair the character in a longer game.

Mutator points; scale in progression with the magic point system, likely you saw that the power damage is less than that of spells of similar level.

Absolutely feel free to nerf the class. If you are the DM, you ABSOLUTELY should consider - as the class stated - the impact of the character class on the world, what impact an infected creature would have as a vector for contagion, etc. Take away the Con bonus if you've allowed that attribute to be maxed already, it is your game - and as stated.

This class/pseudo-race represents a possible huge thematic shift for the world and campaign of the GM. It's advisable that the GM read the document fully and understand the impact of such a class/race/vector of infection in the world. It is a great plot development line, but its also very likely an apocalyptic event as well.

I'd also suggest you not crank up the HP of the monsters, but rather use increased quantity of creatures with lower CR/Rank values, move to using ranged attacks to harass, or just throw a creature that is resistant to the Mutator's weapon damage type(s).

If one player is running (ruining) the campaign for you, Nerf or Nix them/their character. It's your game, although you apparently did allow that min/maxing - you can still settle the matter. Remove the Con Bonus and/or remove the Short Rest recovery of Mutator points - though if you do the latter, I'd suggest that you create another feature for them like an arcane recovery for them based off consumption, I'd suggest it provides both the heal and the recovery, but if you are looking to nerf further or passive-aggressively punish them make it an either or scenario.

Its your game, and unless I have something objective to work from I cannot really address your concerns. So if you can, the character's stats, the damage they are dealing, what attack is/are being used to make that happen, etc. If you cannot provide that I cannot address your concerns for others to benefit from. --Modnar (talk) 7:23, 16 December 2016 (MST)

Deletion/Reversion Proposal

I'm pretty sure I'm aware of what I want. I honestly don't get you, you look at some things that are utterly broken, and say things like "thats not a proper Noun."

Then mark others for deletion because "There is no such thing as Ability damage effects in 5e" or.. "This doesn't correspond with RAW"... ... ... on a homebrew section; or you say they didn't answer a question which ... just doesn't exist... not even in the logs?! (ie no such thing). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Modnar (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

I am an admin, for the record. I can't tell, personally, but it sounds like there's decent chance that this class is unbalanced, in its current form. If somebody better versed could provide more feedback, or if feedback above still applies, then please do share. If you have any specific concerns about what's been happening, Modnar, then please do share. There's no point in linking to random criticisms of the site, however. We're all just people volunteering our time to make a nice DnD resource, remember. --SgtLion (talk) 12:19, 11 November 2017 (MST)

Thank's SgtLion. I realize most of you are volunteers. I've just asked my content be deleted. I've spoken with GreenDragon and Mursaimshammamam already. IF you want specific criticisms I can provide such. From my experience though, it's not something that's taken, or a get some contradictory or defensive responses.

***BUT*** I do *really* appreciate this being moved to the discussion board. That's a nice change versus admins making notes only in the main article(s).--Modnar (talk) 08:31, 12 November 2017 (MST)

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Modnay. I appreciate the reasonable response, I realise it's kinda frustrating for you to deal with. I hadn't realised you'd talked to Marasmusine and Green Dragon already. Unless there's anything you want me to do immediately, I'll leave this article in its current state for a couple weeks, to see if either of them want to do anything to this article. Otherwise, I'll look into reverting the article back to a workable revision, or re-proposing for deletion.

In the meantime, please feel free to let me know if there's anything else I can help you with. --SgtLion (talk) 15:15, 14 November 2017 (MST)

Actually, yes. I've asked for a number of items be deleted, and Green Dragon and Marasmusine were - I thought - in agreement that as the main contributor or person who was handed the content to take over, I'm ok to put it marked for deletion. They would allow it to fade away and be deleted. However; Marasmusine has restored a few to main status - even though - with the case of the artificer (http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Artificer,_Variant_(5e_Class)&action=history), that I abandoned the infusion list being maintained on the wiki.

What template?

I have read this homebrew class multiple times, but I haven't found anything that goes by Aberrant Infected anywhere. Could you perhaps tell me where or what it is?