Talk:Apocalypto (5e Class)

So with the spellcasting... does this mean you only get 5 spells? "Each time you learn a spell slot of a new level you learn one spell of your choice from..." Notdndwiki

Yes, that is what it means.--Yanied (talk) 15:59, 6 April 2019 (MDT)

Featured Article Nomination

— This article became a featured article! 08:10, 5 December 2019 (MST)

This is very well written, its balance is reasonable, it fits a unique niche, and it's concept is well done. --Green Dragon (talk) 09:37, 21 May 2019 (MDT)

Support. Wow, this is... quite a surprise. (I'm not the OP, btw, hi) So... how does article nomination work? Do I just put Support and say why? If so, uh... I'm sure that there's a ton of grammar problems and capitalization errors and needed links and stuff... but yeah, this is a nifty class capitalizing entirely on the versatility on a mounted warrior, who slowly ascends from earthly status to a real life-wrecker... Mechanics-wise, I'm sure someone will say it's just a third-spellcaster with a permanent steed... But the requirements for needing the steed are much more exemplified! Thank you again for your considerations!--Yanied (talk) 20:50, 21 May 2019 (MDT)

Comment. At first glance it looks well written. I don't like how they have access to four class spell lists. The more spells you add, the less flavour the class has. Please pick one or make a custom list. I'd like Rider Rage to drop the +2 at 11th level or replace it with another benefit. Regarding the horse, I'd like you to assume that the player will not have access to their warhorse for at least half of their adventures, for example because the party have had to access a bit of dungeon a horse just can't get into (and this is being generous: I find that not an adventure goes by where the player's haven't had to go up or down a shaft, or swim underwater through a narrow tunnel, or shimmy along a ledge.). This means that the class is not benefiting from its core features for half the time. It could be that the subclass features make up for this, but this needs considering. Marasmusine (talk) 07:09, 30 May 2019 (MDT)

• Furthermore, I guarantee that players forced to leave their warhorse behind will deliberately kill it so that they can re-summon it in some downtime on the "other side". Marasmusine (talk) 07:13, 30 May 2019 (MDT)
• It would also be tempting at 5th level to simply abandon the warhorse and use find steed instead. Marasmusine (talk) 07:16, 30 May 2019 (MDT)

Your critiques are valid. The spell list can be cut down to get rid of access to spells like find steed. (Unfortunately, I just lack the access to address this ^ ^;)--Yanied (talk) 20:45, 30 May 2019 (MDT)

Maybe the player could morph their steed into an augmented familiar to fix this? --Green Dragon (talk) 03:46, 31 May 2019 (MDT)

That's a good way to get around it. I just worry for balance reasons. The lack of the horse in situations acts to check the race's powers but they would be very useless (debilitatingly so?) in those situations. With Ascendency of Material, the horse becomes like the horse from the find steed spell anyway. Not sure I addressed the question--Yanied (talk) 07:46, 31 May 2019 (MDT)

I'll unlock this page temporarily so that non-admins can make the necessary improvements to the page. — Geodude (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 14:34, 11 June 2019 (MDT) (EDIT: Never mind, looks like that's been done already 14:35, 11 June 2019 (MDT))

So thanks to the access, I have accordingly changed the spell lists available to just bard. Rider Rage also changed to eliminate the +2 for another benefit, and the subclasses, sans Famine, were pretty decent on features without mount. I have fixed Famine accordingly for your consideration.--Yanied (talk) 19:53, 11 June 2019 (MDT)

How about adding this onto Steed of the Apocalypse:

As an action, you can temporarily dismiss your warhorse. It disappears into a pocket dimension where it awaits your summons, keeping the stats it had before it was dismissed. Whenever your warhorse is dismissed you may cast find familiar a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus after a short or long rest. Mechanically speaking, the spirit of your warhorse is being summoned as your familiar. While the warhorse is temporarily dismissed, you can cause it to reappear in any unoccupied space within 30 feet of you."

--Green Dragon (talk) 23:26, 1 July 2019 (MDT)

Oh it seems BSFM has rewritten it. Does that sound better?--Yanied (talk) 16:07, 2 July 2019 (MDT)

I made the changes I proposed, as well as to Ascendency of Material. I am trying to address the concerns in dungeons, buildings, as well as making the player not have to "find" their steed all the time. --Green Dragon (talk) 23:35, 2 July 2019 (MDT)

I agree with this change. — Geodude (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 23:45, 2 July 2019 (MDT)

Support The lore is interesting, the abilities are varied, fleshed out, engaging, and look fun. The class is not balanced at all but in the context of the source material that actually adds to it in this case.

Also it's just wonderful to imagine a Terry Pratchett version of Death cruising around in a regular DnD party adventuring. Whalebone (talk) 08:37, 14 June 2019 (MDT)

Comment I'd like to support but have a few issues with subclasses since I think that at this point, the base class is pretty good framework.

• Pestilence - what is proficient in all spells that cause conditions mean? There is no benefit at level 14. Is the DC for forago intentional a base 10? A design note may be appropriate for the deviation of 5e. Also, ray of sickness at will? Anyone else concerned? At the very least I believe it needs restricted to being cast as a level 1 spell if it is to be at will.
  
• War - Reflex seems pretty good, and when compounded with level 20, I am actually scared how good it is. At level 20, 24 AC should be reasonable. Anyone that attacks and misses takes 48 damage. It is level 20, I know, but can anyone share that this is balanced?
  
• Famine - Take advantage is a little weird to me. The benefit seems more like a background feature and the improved critical is just out of place. "I sell food for more money and when I get good, it hit the critical spots better". I think a good entry feature would be sustenance, aka no need to eat or drink. Then maybe (maybe?) consumable items (food) within 5 feet of you rots and withers. Gnawing seems to need a per use or limitation. Once the creature fails do they keep rolling saves? At what end are they getting levels of exhaustion? (I like exhaustion being the mechanic on this subclass). I like the conditional of Merciless but don't think the targets needs 2 levels of exhaustion. and again, maybe once they receive exhaustion from this effect it can't be applied again.
  

Once a creature has 6 levels they die. This is my concern for racking up the levels (not stacks btw) of exhaustion. As is, the mechanics make hit points irrelevant. Restrict how many levels can be given by the features should be fair.

• Death - instead of disadvantage to mess with you is it okay to be immune to frighten at 3rd level? Extra attack feels really out of place. Are you open to a more flavorful option?
  

Going through I noticed a lot of doubling die damage. Does critical hit double the doubled damaged? Most features add die damage to attacks i.e. sneak attack, maneuvers, smite, favored enemy, etc. Not sure if you want to consider this option. ~ BigShotFancyMan 08:51, 19 June 2019 (MDT)

Oh, Plague is the benefit at level 14, which is supposed to grant the proficiency in condition-causing spells... I might need help with wording that since, I really can come up better than with "spells which cause conditions." I can change the whole ray of sickness thing, thanks for that!

• Take advantage was meant to kinda look like you were taking advantage of people who were hungry, AKA exhausted. But the idea of removing rood and drink requirements works too! The 10th level improvement was mainly because I felt Famine fell behind the other subclasses. The idea of rotting food did not come to me since it doesn't sound conventional but that can work... :). I can add the limit to Gnawing but I'm not sure I quite totally understand your question about continuously rolling saves? I was thinking that once they fail, they take the exhaustion stack along with an extra one. Merciless can be reduced to just advantage I guess, or the second part can be limited. The lack of ability to boost dps, as well as the possibility of being separated from the horse is why I wanted to Famine something like exhaustion, really.
• Death can become immune to fear sure! I was worried if that'd be a lot at 3rd level. I am definitely open to a more flavorful option. How does advantage in death saving throws sound?

I mostly used the double damage die as a blanket, but I can work it to be tethered to another feature sure!--Yanied (talk) 17:52, 19 June 2019 (MDT)

So I made some edits and I hope they resolve some of the biggest issues! ^ ^;--Yanied (talk) 13:45, 20 June 2019 (MDT)

Good changes. I like retaliation dealing damage equal to level now. Proficiency with condition spells needs to be a spell list. I would suggest it be tiered like other classes that give spells at certain levels (paladin oaths, cleric domains). I like the original gnawing but I didn't communicate effectively that any creature that gains a level of exhaustion from a feature cannot gain another level from it for 24 hours. I think as written you could give 4 or 5 levels of exhaustion which is sort of the sweet spot to me. Enough to really muck up some dudes world but doesn't give that 6th level and therefore bypassing hit points for killing enemies. It is the sort of effect I would see from a D2 Curse Necromancer (and I may use this method for a different class-curses bestows exhaustion levels). Advantage on death saving throws is pretty sweet.Kudos yanied, this looks fun. ~ BigShotFancyMan 12:10, 24 June 2019 (MDT)

I changed the Plague feature to better fit with the fact that this class can only really use bard spells save for ray of sickness. I also reverted Gnawing but I put a stack cap! Thanks for your help! Would you support this as an FA then?--Yanied (talk) 21:15, 24 June 2019 (MDT)

I will be taking more passes at it. My goal is to support the class and with plenty of time I think we'll get there. ~ BigShotFancyMan 06:43, 1 July 2019 (MDT)

Hey I read the change log after I posted here and I was very impressed by the cap you did with gnawing "if the creature has 5 levels of exhaustion they are immune to this effect" or thereabouts. I find this very simple and doesn't confuse the player and recommend repeating this on the other features that give levels of exhaustion. ~ BigShotFancyMan 06:46, 1 July 2019 (MDT)

Thanks! I figured that was like how in pokemon they say "if this pokemon already has this effect, it can't get it again"--Yanied (talk) 19:52, 1 July 2019 (MDT)

Rider Bond Does anyone else think this feature should be limited/per use feature? ~ BigShotFancyMan 13:08, 2 July 2019 (MDT)

Sorry so soon again here but if you look at Equus you might see what I mean; that feature I think is written and designed well. Rider Bond has no action economy to it, or per use which might be okay...I am just curious what others think. ~ BigShotFancyMan 13:24, 2 July 2019 (MDT)

I'm not sure about a limit on it... how about if it was a reaction?--Yanied (talk) 16:07, 2 July 2019 (MDT)

I think that would be good. If it has unlimited use, its on you if you want to keep taking hits for the horse :p ~ BigShotFancyMan 06:32, 3 July 2019 (MDT)

Ok, I added the bit on needing to expend a reaction--Yanied (talk) 11:13, 3 July 2019 (MDT)

Support. I support this article, I am still touching up things but in general I think this is a good article.   ~BigShotFancyMan   talk   12:49, 26 September 2019 (MDT)

So what else has anyone to say on the race? Open to fixing it up, so long as we keep this ball rolling :)--Yanied (talk) 15:34, 6 November 2019 (MST)

Yay, it succeeded! Just a big thank you to all the admins who helped with the formatting and smoothing out the rough edges, and thank you to everyone for voting!--Yanied (talk) 12:06, 5 December 2019 (MST)

Following Balance

I know this class is locked for editing but I feel like the death subclass could use some adjustments. Fear and Trembling is very weak as it has a lower than normal save DC (most save DCs include the proficiency bonus as well as 8 + relevant ability score), and the target of the effect rolls the save when it is first used and again at the start of their turn, so they get two chances to end the effect before they actually take a turn and are affected at all by the frightened condition. Also, Master of Death is really weak for level 17. This is the same level that fullcasters are gaining access to spells like wish and meteor swarm, while the death apocalypto is getting a 5th level spell slot and a near useless feature.--Cbrett1903 (talk) 13:06, 9 January 2021 (GMT)

Oh, good catch on the DC and repeat save. That will be adjusted so the DC includes PB and the save will be made at the end of their turns, like 4e saves. Master of death was sort of to lower the chances of you rolling a 1 on a death save to 1/400, which is good for when you are knocked unconscious. But I see your point about it being a tier feature. I'm going to add another slight benefit to it then. It won't be as good as a 9th level spell, but it will buff it closer to help out the subclass balance.--Yanied (talk) 12:28, 9 January 2021 (MST)

Armor Proficiency

In the proficiencies section, it's listed that you only have proficiency in light armor. In the starting equipment section, however, you have to choose between ring mail and a chain shirt, which are heavy armour and medium armour respectively. Is there a reason for this? Emanresu123p (talk) 16:48, 22 May 2020

Oh wow that is a good point. The armor has been changed.--Yanied (talk) 20:13, 22 May 2020 (MDT)

I like the change but there would be no reason to choose padded armor over leather except for the 2 lbs difference in weight which only matters to 0.01% of players. Maybe you could make it an option between leather/studded leather and maybe a second simple/martial weapon. I'm sorry for being so nitpicky about it but I would love to see a better diversity in the playstyle for the class. Emanresu123p (talk)20:32, 22 May 2020 (MDT)

Took a hot potato second to get back here. That's a fair point. I originally made it leather and padded so that players can choose either and have the same benefits. But this could be more interesting.--Yanied (talk) 14:27, 8 February 2022 (MST)