Talk:Anakim (3.5e Creature)/Archive 1

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Help

Yes, I know, this is not in the proper format. I need some input, and little help on editing the wikipage info. First off, is this a CR 4 creature? Does my Lvl Adj 0f +3 work?

I have an elite version of this creature to be posted as well... Any input for how best to do that? -xidoraven (Will, xidoraven@yahoo.com) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Xidoraven (talk • contribs) 19:06, 4 September 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

You are certainly off. In general, CR represents your difficulty as an opponent to a party. If you were to make this a character, the creature's hit dice represent the creature's "creature levels." An LA is added if the creature's level is inadequate to account for its abilities. So a 4 hd creature with a +3 LA is 7th level.

For CR4, your critter should have an attack about +8 and AC 15, with a poison save about DC 15. It should have about 6d8 (39) hit points.--Dmilewski 19:51, 4 September 2007 (MDT)

I appreciate the help, Dmilewski. I purposely gave it few HD because I wanted it to be like a base monster (like an orc, goblin, kobold, or elf) that would be best suited to being advanced as a character class, but which would be much more powerful in terms of natural abilities. (In that sense, like a Drow or Janni)

Would it help to have the Elite version stats to tell what it would be best as, or should I work out the kinks on this version first? Also, what kind of CR and Lvl Adj would this creature be more definitive as? Does the poison have to be that low? I made it 10 + HD + Con bonus.

An elite Anakim of this sort would have the following changes:

• Str +2 (18), Dex +2 (17), Con +2 (16), Int +2 (16), Wis +1 (15)
• Summon Anakim (1d4, 1d6+2 HD total, 40% chance of successful summons)
• Blindsense (Ex)
• Change Shape (Su)
• Telepathy (Su), 100 feet range-

-xido 22:36, 4 September 2007 (MDT)

Honestly, this critter is never going to be "like a base monster," even one "which would be much more powerful in terms of natural abilities. (In that sense, like a Drow or Janni)". Simply put, those creatures have few powerful natural abilities. The creature has:

1. A speed boost.
2. High natural armor (5).
3. A poison attack.
4. 3 natural attacks.
5. Large size.
6. A variable poison attack. ?
7. 3 (albeit minor) psionic abilities usable at will.
8. A good regeneration (3).
9. At least a bonus feat (either Improved Grab, Improved Trip, Multiattack, or Improved Initiative, yes?).
10. Pretty high ability modifiers if this is a normal array creature! (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8). This means the creature has a bonus in basically every ability.
11. 1 +1 racial skill bonus, 4 +2 racial skill bonuses, 2 +4 racial bonuses, and 2 +8 racial skill bonuses. Why, oh why, so many?!
12. Double treasure?

Basically, this creature is super powerful to be considered a normal player character. Further, it doesn't work too well as a monster because it needs more hit dice (which also make it even less player friendly). As it is, it will either completely own a group of weak adventurers or last about one round against a party of moderate level (during which time, despite it's myriad special abilities, it will nonetheless only get one attack off before the entire party acts and wipes its meager 26HP body across the floor [3rd level magic missile = 7HP, longsworded by fighter =8-10HP, cleric inflict moderate wounds = 12HP, and-- if it isn't dead-- the rogue can sneak attack it or the rest of the party can cut it down as it tries to flee {AoO}. In other words, with so few HP it will be owned by a 3rd level party]). So, that I am not worthless, here are some suggestions:

1. Cut down on the number of abilities. Consider axing 2 of either regeneration, poison, psionic abilities, or the many natural attacks (along with multiattack). I would suggest axing (if you really want this to be a player character) the psionic abilities and the many natural attacks (just save claw), and would also lower the regeneration to 1. In a fight that is still quite helpful, but is not unbelievable. Remember, though, that player characters can also rest between fights, so all a character will this has to do (even with regeneration 1) is wait a few minutes before he is completely healed! That is hugely powerful. Besides, such a character can also even regrow lost body parts. Regen alone is probably worth a LA of one higher, no matter how many HD the creature has.
2. Give it more hit dice. As a primarily combat oriented creature, it should have about 8-10HD at CR4.
3. Ease up on the ability modifiers. Why is it so good at everything?
4. Cut the number of racial skill bonuses in half, as in give a +2 bonus to two skills and a +4 to two skills MAX. Cut the swim bonus and give a swim speed of 15 ft (which will also allow it to always take 10 on swim checks, which is better than a racial bonus anyway).
5. Take away the speed boost.
6. The base attack should go up to about +6 (especially if the creature gets 8-10 HD).
7. Add some flavor to the creature. Right now it simply doesn't make logical sense. How would this creature have evolved? It has many offensive abilities, but with so few HP really would never have been good at holding its own in a fight. Further, why is it psionic? And keep in mind that Telepathy is, in itself, an extremely powerful tool: it is more useful than a permanent 3rd level arcane spell (tongues). What sort of society does it have? Why is it so frail (low HD and meager Con bonus for a warrior) though it has such powerful... uh... scales? Fur? :) [insert other uber natural armor here]? A creature is much more than just its abilities: it is also a representative (hopefully) of a rich and complex culture. Save the nameless cannon fodder for a quick single-appearance enemy, not for a player character.

I hope that some of this was helpful. If you follow my suggestions, you might get closer to a CR4-ish creature, though it will probably still have an LA of about +2 and so will still be pretty unusable as a PC (since a 1st level Anakim fighter would be "equal" to a 11-13th level human fighter, which is really probably not that equal). In any case, good luck! –EldritchNumen 01:12, 5 September 2007 (MDT)

• I like good, powerful opponent for my players. Typically I do not allow people to play Level 1-3 Characters, beginning only as low as Lvl 4. In the current campaign setting, where I plan to introduce the Anakim as a planar entity, the group is currently Lvl 7, and I am trying to develop beasties that will fit that CR, but which can allow character classes for advancement... It's all part of the process of making their opponents more "real" in terms of culture and sociability.--68.224.223.17 15:01, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

That's about on-the-money. If this is to truly be a PC-friendly creature, you need to avoid LA. LA is a poor system that gives poor results and many unintended problems. Aim for this: taking an Anakim with no levels should be as compelling as taking any 4th level character of any race. In addition, their abilities should stack nicely with their favored class. After you are done creating them as 4 HD creatures that need no LA, then you can determine their CR.--Dmilewski 19:26, 5 September 2007 (MDT)

I see. Maybe I am stating it the wrong way. It's not that I want my players jumping in an immediately playing one of these things without developing it in-game... Though they may be able to play one in the future. The biggest thing is that I want the flexibility of making them more class-oriented, so that each individual Anakim is unique, like humans. They are very social, and have a highly developed culture. This will be detailed in a full Monster Ecology... But first I have to fix up this base stat core. I am not scared of having a Lvl Adj of +5 or more... However, if I drop them any lower in terms of abilities, they will not be able to fit my concept without being unbalanced. As I say later, I will up them to 6HD to keep with the CR goal of 4, but no further.--68.224.223.17 15:01, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

Typically, only humanoids have racial subtypes (or creatures with the augmented humanoid subtype), and it's mostly for game balance issues (favored enemy, bane weapons, slaying arrows, etc...). A ranger can't choose all humanoids as their favored enemy, they have to pick a specific subtype. However, he can choose all monstrous humanoids, so there'd be no point in limiting his choice to monstrous humanoids (anakim). Is there a specific reason why you want it to have the anakim subtype? Similarly, "the reptilian subtype is only used to describe a set of humanoid races, not all animals and monsters that are truly reptiles" (see reptilian subtype). So again, only humanoids (or creatures with the augmented humanoid subtype) have the reptilian subtype.

As far an elite version, what do you mean by "elite?" Are you talking about using the creature as a race and giving it the elite ability score array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), class levels, and/or a template? Or are you talking about something like the relationship of the stone giant elders among stone giants?

Formatting: The best way to go about this is to make your format mimic the creatures in the SRD. If you click on the "view source" link at the top of any one of those pages, you'll see how the Monster/Creature template is supposed to be filled out. Compare it to the centaur (a fellow 4-HD Large monstrous humanoid). You don't need to explicitly give the possibly range of hit points (12-40) because the Hit Dice already gives that info (4d8+8). Similarly, you don't need to prefix the average hit points with "avg." With weapons and attacks, pick a specific weapon keeping in mind that what you list affects what weapons character of this race automatically are proficient. If you don't want to give any automatic proficiencies beyond what is given from type, either don't give it any manufactured weapons and just list natural attacks, or give it simple weapons (with which all monstrous humanoids are proficient). Remember that stat blocks give ready-to-play-out-the-box creatures (or as-ready-as-possible creatures). Don't make the DM have to select equipment (outside of random treasure) before hand. —Sledged (talk) 11:02, 5 September 2007 (MDT)

Wow! Thank you all for your help. I seriously need to consider how to answer all of these issues. It is not that I didn't know what I wanted to make this beastie (I based the stats on the concept I have been working on for a couple years now), but that I did not know how to make my creature concept fit within the guidelines of being a CR4 creature with the potential for being a base 7 ECL...

• When it comes to physical abilities, they shouldn't be higher than the creature's mental/special abilities. As for low HD, I wanted a creature that COULD be killed off easily, because a part of how these beings work is that there is no true 'death' in terms of mortality, because an Anakim's immortal soul can re-inhabit another physical body after only 1d6+3 days, which they enter in their reproduction chambers. Essentially, an Anakim which is killed can be met more than once, in a somewhat similar manner as a Dracolich can return in another body (but yes, different... The new body is just that - a new one. This effect is a spiritual one which will be outlined in my coming project (www.elftown.com/_inath is being moved here to become more credible as an alternative D&D character advancement system).
• Anakim physiology is specific - claw attacks cannot be used in concurrence with slam attacks because of it retractable claws, which cannot support the damage caused by having extended claws as well as delivering a bludgeoning attacks. This is the same issue with utilizing a weapon with claws extended.
• The speed boost only operates when the creature activates this ability. I will have to put in a limit on how often it can be used. Also, unlike simply taking the run action, it only gives a slight boost to speed, plus gives a skill bonus to Climb and other agility skills. You're right though, it might simply be easier to just give it a swim speed with a lower swim bonus.
• I can lower the natural AC bonus, but it will only drop to +3. These creatures have tough hide. That is a fact, not something to make them cooler beasties. I was going for tougher than crocodile, less than dragon. Perhaps the 'Elite' Anakim will take the full +5 AC bonus as part of its advancement process. 'Elite' is both a physical advancement, as well as a built-in caste system which keeps Anakim who have died in battle from becoming more powerful too quickly. This is a sociological factor, as well as a method for culling the weak and forcing them to try it all over again.
• YES, the poison is variable!!! The Anakim race can secrete either a fully debilitating poison (primary and secondary Dex dmg), but by willingly choosing not to do this damage, a special enzyme in their blood makes the poison more inert, simply putting the bitten or clawed character to sleep.
• The creature cannot use all attacks at once. Claw OR Slam OR Weapon (weapons still need to be chosen, they are not left open to the player to decide... I just haven't gotten that far). Multiattack was necessary to keep the prehensile tail available as an option instead of being simple a physical trait with limitation. Biting is not considered an honorable method of attacking a mortal creature, socially speaking for this race. Claws, however, are not looked down upon, and these can attack with the poison option. For this reason, it is an ability listed, though not often utilized. It will go into the description section.
• What about being large? They're large... Almost twice as big as a human. That's just how it works. Is this a problem?

  It's not so much the size, but the benefits of size (i.e. the increase reach) which warrants an LA increase. —Sledged (talk) 10:26, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

  I stayed within the zones of typical Large Creature types for Str, Dex, and Con, with the more important of these stats being on the high end, and less important ones on the low end. What kind of LA would reflect this size increase?--68.224.223.17 14:38, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

  A 10' reach calls for an LA increase of 1. —Sledged (talk) 23:11, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

• The psionic abilities are something that the Anakim have developed over they centuries to help deal with the diverse array of mortal attacks and defenses. It simply gives them an edge of 'what to do next?'

  Ah, yes, this creature should have the psionic subtype. —Sledged (talk) 10:26, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

  That I can do.--68.224.223.17 14:38, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

• What is a more balanced regeneration for a reptilian subtype monstrous humanoid? Would Fast healing be a better option? Should it be scrapped altogether, or at least only added to the 'Elite' version?
• A 4HD creature would naturally get two feats: Multiattack, and Improved Initiative. The other two are inherent abilities (Improved Grab - Tail, Improved Trip - Tail). Is that too much?

  Improved Trip should be listed with the other feats and marked as a bonus feat. —Sledged (talk) 10:26, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

  Noted.--68.224.223.17 14:38, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

• This is not a normal array creature. Its scores are representative of its highly developed nature and unique biological niche. Like a Janni, it is made to be VERY high starting point for a player character, yet powerful enough to hold its own against a single character with little knowledge about its methods and combat techniques. The low HD was to help balance this issue, so that it would be both powerful and able to be overcome... But because of its unique mortality, even death is not a true ending for these beings. Being reborn in a new body with the same soul can be quite helpful in that regard. The 'Elite' version of this creature should be to its more 'common' version what an elite array beastie is to a normal one. I think I did the bonuses correctly for this. Basically, the additional changes to Stats should line up with the common/elite differences to one another.
• Anakim inherit the knowledge of their forebearers upon birth, which lends the massive amount of bonuses to Knowledge Skills. The +8 bonus to Swim can be changed to a Swim speed to help this issue, but the +8 to Hide is an environment-specific bonus which does not apply outside of woodland and aquatic areas (somewhat like a Dragon Turtle's ability to Hide well underwater). The other bonuses are not too over-powereed, just race-specific (concept-specific, if you will).

  By virtue of having a swim speed, creatures automatically gain a +8 to Swim checks. So removing the bonus and giving them a swim speed gives them even more benefits. Since it has a prehensile tail, you could use that to justify a +4 bonus in Swim checks like the lizardfolk. —Sledged (talk) 10:26, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

  So a total of +12, +8 from Swim, +4 from tail, with a Swim Speed?--68.224.223.17 14:38, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

  No, I meant not having a swim speed and just having the +4 from the tail. A +12 would definitely be too much. Aquatic creatures don't even get that high of a racial bonus. —Sledged (talk) 23:11, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

• Double Treasure - these creatures hoard shiny and valuable objects (and have a naturally developed ability to Appraise the value of an item's worth), and therefore have double treasure than standard... Should this be limited to a specific type of treasure or items?
• Let's be frank here: this is NOT a 'normal player character'. This creature is advanced by character class because it is more diverse in terms of concept; NOT because it is made for players to play.

  That being the case, build the creature the way you want it to be, then adjust the HD, CR, and LA (in that order) to match the creature. Not the other way around. Give it all the awesomeness you envision it to have without worrying about what kind of PC race it'll make. —Sledged (talk) 10:26, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

  See next reply--68.224.223.17 14:38, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

• What should be changed here: HD or CR? I want to keep a low HD, but I do not want to get rid of inherent abilities that make the overall concept for this creature.

  Low HD is not recommended. There's a polymorph/metamorphosis issue (among others) if the HD diverges too far from either the CR or the LA. —Sledged (talk) 10:26, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

  I will up the HD to 6d8+Con, but no further. That way, my charcter concept will still be possible, without limiting them as a beastie race. With that HD, is it able to fall into the CR4 category, along with its other noted stats? Along with being Large, what kind of LA should it receive?--68.224.223.17 14:38, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

  Let's see:

  • +6 Str, +4 everything else = +2 LA
  • 4 natural attacks: 2 claws and tail and bite, or 2 slams and tail and bite, or claw and slam and tail and bite = +1 LA (social stigmas don't matter. Can the creature make a claw/slam attack with it's free hand if it wields a one-handed weapon? Can it use it's tail and bite with the wielded weapon, as well?)
  • natural armor bonus = +1 LA
  • poison = +1 LA
  • at will psi-like abilities = +1 LA
  • speed boost = ehh...
  • 10' reach = +1 LA
  • regeneration = +1 LA
  • improved grab = ehh...
  • Improved Trip = ehh...
  • skill bonuses = +1 LA
  • Total +9 LA.

  I'd say the six monstrous humanoid Hit Dice help mitigate the LA to bring it down to a +5 or +6. So at this point you've got starting ECL of about 11th or 12th. —Sledged (talk) 23:11, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

• The regeneration for this creature allows it to regrow lost body parts in a number of days, but NOT to reattach them when severed. A small and somewhat insignificant balance...
• Should the speed/skill boost from Anakim Alacrity become an ability that should be given to the 'Elite' members only?
• Defining Elite: yes, I was going with the 'Elite Array' of stats, but I was also going for a concept: some Anakim are more powerful than others because they are smart and do not get killed as quickly/easily as the rest of them. Technically, any Anakim has the potential to become more powerful and attain these stats and abilities, should they live long enough in a single body to do so.
• I think I messed up on the Base Attack Bonus, but I was using the stats in the 3.5 Monster Manual, so I don't where I went wrong...

  BAB is fine. Grapple, however, should be +11 with the current stats. —Sledged (talk) 10:26, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

  Grapple = BAB + Siz Mod + Str bonus + feats?--68.224.223.17 14:38, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

  That's it exactly. —Sledged (talk) 23:11, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

• Don't worry about the social facets. I will have that posted sometime soon. I want to get the stats down pat first. Don't want to let all my concept secrets out yet...  ;) This creature evolved in a different society from the other races, including humans, and has experienced a long racial lifespan of development, which should make sense when all is said and done. Further, their will be other alternatives to this creature - for one, a Half-Anakim template (lending a subtype - yes, Anakim are like Tanar'ri in the fact that not all Monstrous Reptilian Humanoids are Anakim, but all Anakim are Monstrous Reptilian Humanoids - in this way, they would be like an Augmented Humanoid...... I think).

  I would only bother with having the anakim subtype if (A) it grants any traits, or (B) it is an augmented humanoid. And if it's the latter, this should either be a template, or the augmented subtype should be limited to the elite version and the normal version be of the humanoid type instead. Base creatures never start off with the augmented subtype. They're either templated or they've gone through something that changed their original type (like a monk reaching 20th level). If you want anakim to be a subtype with traits, you should go ahead and write them up. —Sledged (talk) 10:26, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

  A) it grants traits, like being Tanar'ri grants Clan-specific traits that other demons do no possess. Further, there will be special bane weapons created to further its original concept in Earthen Mythology.--68.224.223.17 14:38, 7 September 2007 (MDT)

I hope this helps. Thank you all for your help. I will be doing more this week to finalize the content I have here.--xido 20:26, 5 September 2007 (MDT)

I REALLY appreciate the help on this. I am receiving some excellent critique and method help. This is the first creature I have ever really created from the ground up in terms of stats. www.elftown.com/_g'ni was the first creature concept developed from the ground up, but currently has no stats written.

Split

The three versions of the "Anakim" need to be split up onto three separate pages (e.g. Anakim, Fledgling (DnD Creature)). This way three different CR pages will not link to the same page and people will be able to find what they are looking for easier. If you do not want to spent the time doing this, I would be very willing to split them up, however please let me know if you are going to or not, thanks. --Green Dragon 21:04, 9 September 2007 (MDT)

I think it will be worth while to wait until the format is ironed out before they're split into their own pages. —Sledged (talk) 21:37, 9 September 2007 (MDT)

Whenever is fine. I just glanced at this page with its most recent edit and saw 3 different creatures here. From that edit I made the above comment. I am 100% okay with waiting. --Green Dragon 21:54, 9 September 2007 (MDT)

Either method is fine with me. I can hang with editing them all separately. I appreciate the hell out of you guys keeping watch and helping me work out my concept kinks. I will need to get a good, valid CR and LA on all of them before I go adding them to any lists anyways, so I guess it would be best to wait.

Thanks again, guys. --xido 20:15, 10 September 2007 (MDT)

Okay, wait we will. --Green Dragon 22:01, 18 September 2007 (MDT)

Whenever you are ready please say so here and I will be more than willing to help. --Green Dragon 23:15, 23 September 2007 (MDT)

I do believe that everything is ready to be checked and formatted. I tried doing the skill points in my head while I was posting them, so someone should check my numbers on that part. I did not up the skill points at higher castes for a higher Int bonus, I simply added on the new HD worth of skill points separately.

The pages, if correct in stats, can be separated, and of course, they need their Combat abilities posted into them. (*sigh*) Improved Grab is not listed with stats, and neither is Anakim Alacrity. The latter is a Su ability that grants 1.5x base speed (including Swim speeds) and a +2 bonus to Climb and Jump checks. It works on self only, is dispelled in an Antimagic field (since it is a Su ability), and lasts 1d4+Con rounds. Troopers can do it 1/day, and Elites can do it 3/day. I will complete the description portions after they are checked and split. Also, what is the descriptor to use after the link to Niberu, so I can post info about it up as a homebrew campaign world?

Thanks! -- xido 10:49, 24 September 2007 (MDT)

Alright, someone just needs to check the numbers and these should be good to go. --Green Dragon 23:32, 27 September 2007 (MDT)

Inath Stats

Alright, though this page is not quite finished, I know it will soon get to the point where someone is going to ask me, where the hell did you get that information?!?!? I made it up. PLEASE, see Inath (3.5e Variant Rule) and give me a little input on this concept. It is NOT FINISHED, but definitely can handle a good look-over. Thanks, guys. --xido 17:56, 14 September 2007 (MDT)