Talk:Abhorsen (3.5e Class)

{{Base Class NPC Recommended|June 2007}}

Prestige vs Base

I think you might be better off making this a Prestige class- to me it seems to make a bit more sense... MorkaisChosen 10:32, 4 June 2007 (MDT)

Read the books: the next abhorsen is trained to be abhorsen as soon as they are old enough. They just don't get the title until the last one dies. They don't have time to get other classes first to fulfill presteige class criteria. I may add a LA though: they do seem to be quite powerful. Sam Kay 04:00, 13 June 2007 (MDT)

You are aware that LA is for races, not for classes, are you? --Mkill 07:39, 13 June 2007 (MDT)

Yes, but I can change that if I want. Sam Kay 13:26, 15 June 2007 (MDT)

Balance???

This class is way off balance in the way it is written now. It combines skill points like a rogue, sorcerer spellcasting with an even higher number of spells per day, 3/4 BAB, 2 good saves and longsword proficiency. Forget it. This class can compete with a gestalt character.

There are minor issues, too. What good is armor proficiency when you have arcane spell failure chance? What about this "enter death" ability? Shouldn't it be gained a lot later? If it was a spell, it would be something like 7th level. So no class should gain such an ability before level 13.

+4 to attacks against undead and constructs is also way off. Even if there was a solid reason for such an ability (I see none), it should start at +1 and increase every 5 levels, at best. So +4 would be level 15.

And then there is the lack of background description to make sense of the whole thing, and many typos.

If I had to rate this class, it would be a flat 0/10 as it is now.

Oh. Last point. The name. For me, as a German native speaker, Abhorsen sounds very very strange... it sounds like a verb. "Gehn wir heute abend abhorsen?" It is no proper German verb, but it could be one. --Mkill 07:37, 13 June 2007 (MDT)

It is not finished yet. I plan on adding disadvantages, penalties, the lot. The word is not german as far as I know. I am aware that a LA is for races only, but this is a game where anything is possible. I may weaken the BAB, as abhorsens only really fight undead anyway. Also, with the enter death you are limited by your characters power- a weak character in death will only get a short distance before she gets killed somehow. The dangers of death ballance out the ability, and the gains ... well apart from banishing undead, are minute. Why go in if you could be killed and will get nothing out of it? Sam Kay 10:18, 13 June 2007 (MDT)

I see that you toned down the power level a lot. It looks better now.

As for "a game where anything is possible", well, yes, that is true. But there are certain explicit and implicit rules about what good game design for a class is. If you follow these rules, it will usually be easier to introduce a class in a campaign. --Mkill 22:23, 13 June 2007 (MDT)

Other issues

Starting equipment: It is very unusual that a class starts with specific equipment. Are the 7 bells of the Necromancer magically teleported to each new 1st level Abhorsen? Probably not. You should instead give these as separate magic items and give the Abhorsen some way to create them.

There can be only one: That's not a good prerequisite for a class. Is it really necessary? What if two players at the table decide they want to play one? Also, what happens if the "one and only" bloodline is eradicated? (It happens)... There is a reason those kind of in-game prerequisites for class choice and advancement were removed with 3rd edition (remember the AD&D Druid?). It forces a certain kind of background into the campaign, even where it does not fit. A class description is simply the wrong place for something like that. Leave such specific background details for individual DMs to decide. --Mkill 22:23, 13 June 2007 (MDT)

Dont worry, these have already been thought of, but not implemented yet. It will all work out once the class is finished. And as for the two players thing, just have one play the Abhorsen, and the other play the "Abhorsen-in-waiting". It should work, all they have to do is roleplay family interaction (one as father or mother, the other as the son or daughter). It should prove interesting from a roleplay standpoint.Sam Kay 09:27, 14 June 2007 (MDT)

Most books have a single party of protagonists, that´s just the way books tell stories. Pen and paper works differently. Why don´t you just simply drop some of the attributes of the abhorsen in the books so they fit more in the role as a d&d-class? Would it hurt to allow more than one abhorsen at a time?

NPC

nobody add an NPC for this class. I will add one when it is finished. Sam Kay 13:34, 13 June 2007 (MDT)

Rating - 7/10

I was rather surprised when I read through the class. I had expected it to be somewhat on the power-gaming side, but was shocked to find it is actually somewhat underpowered.

A few questions, once address, should help fix that.

1. Suppose the physical body is destroyed while the Abhorsen is in Death, what happens then? 2. Would it be possible to make the skill "Knowledge: The Charter" into Knowledge: Arcana with an added ability for the class? Such as "Beginning at first level, an Abhorsen may use a Knowledge: Arcana check to specifically learn about a creature, spell, or object pertaining to the Charter".

You might also look into giving them at least one other ability. Though "Death" is quite interesting, it sort of makes for a rather... well, lacking ability. I recommend adding a "Ghost Touch" effect to all equipment worn at some level. Since you risk encountering an incorperal creature while in "Death", it doesn't seem fair that you go completely unarmed. Adding the ability allows an Abhorsen stand a chance to survive such an encounter, since they are about returning the dead to death.

Overall, really nice class. I give it a 7/10. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.82.124.92 (talk • contribs) 10:55, 15 June 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

Thanks! It's nice to be complemented about a class I made.

I will now answer your questions: First: If the Abhorsen's physical body is destroyed, she immediately looses control of her body in death and walks into the ninth gate (and dies). I forgot to add that bit. Oops... Second: No. The charter is very different to normal magic. An Abhorsen knowledgable in the charter is not knowledgeable in "normal arcane magic".

I agree that "death" is interesting, and it may seem... lacking, but it soon will not be. The key is in the bells of the necromancer; to fully unlock the powers of death. I probably will add more class features though: the table is almost empty (and so doesn't look as good), there are few epic features and it is underpowered. Also: Incorporeal creatures count as corporeal in death (essentially, while in death, everything, including the Abhorsen, is incorporeal).Sam Kay 12:59, 15 June 2007 (MDT)

This rating has been nullified with the implementation of the new Rating System. --Green Dragon 14:41, 20 February 2008 (MST)

Must be Good

Since this class has an alignment restriction, it should have an Ex-Abhorsen section. —Sledged (talk) 14:05, 27 November 2007 (MST)

Feel free to change it if you want. I abandoned this class some time ago, although after I have finished with one or two things, I may finish it off. --Sam Kay 10:18, 3 December 2007 (MST)

An Ex Abhorsen is merely a necromancer. This is something said in the body of the text, but I can add a section for one as needed.Crystal Spires (talk) 23:55, 31 July 2013 (MDT)

Rating

Formatting - 3/5: I give this a 3/5 on formatting because it has no links (it uses just external links to another part of D&D Wiki), and uses x instead of × (&times), does not use the right level of headers, and has class feature headers on different lines from the class feature text. --Green Dragon 13:46, 21 February 2008 (MST)

Redoing The Abhorsen

wouldnt this work alot better if it was based more loosly on the books as the current way the class works makes it not fit in that well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ShadowyFigure (talk • contribs) 09:53, 4 March 2008 (MST). Please sign your posts.

I did a rework, and hope that it is a bit less weak and a bit more playable.Crystal Spires (talk) 23:52, 31 July 2013 (MDT)

Completing this?

Are you planning on completing this ever? It's been a stub for years now. Surgo 23:25, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

No. --Sam Kay 00:11, 5 April 2009 (MDT)

Since Sam Kay doesn't plan on finishing it and if it's not a problem, I can try my best to complete it. I've read the books a few times so I know a good bit about this subject. I have a few ideas to improve upon the class. For example, the "Enter Death" ability could be rewritten such that Death is considered a separate plane. However, regardless of what edits I make to this, the class will most likely only be used in games that are heavily based on the books. Druid Walker 15:37, 30 November 2010 (EST)

What needs to happen here is a complete campaign setting, including an Abhorsen PrC. And it should indeed be a PrC; keeping in line with the books, Sabriel had learned a decent bit before becoming the Abhorsen, Lirael had trained extensively with Charter Magic and a decent bit with the bow before becoming the Abhorsen-in-Waiting (Chlorr even refers to her as one of the Clayr's elite mages, in the beginning of the third book), and it was made clear that before the Interregnum it was common for Abhorsens-in-Waiting to train with their predecessor for quite some time before becoming Abhorsen themselves (as Sabriel tells Sam in the second book). In-universe, Sabriel was a notable exception in that she was vastly undertrained; we just don't see a lot of that because of the time in which the books are set. Now, there would be some rather unusual guidelines for the PrC, seeing as there is indeed only one Abhorsen (and potentially one Abhorsen-in-Waiting) at any given time, and if the Abhorsen dies the mantle passes to the Abhorsen-in-Waiting immediately. So, there might not be any typical requirements for PrC entry (BAB, spell levels, etc.) - instead, it's mostly up to the DM as to when you can begin taking levels. Really, a lot of the mechanics of how things work might be left up to the DM, just because it's rather difficult to set it in concrete on this end.... 98.66.32.76 10:33, 17 January 2011 (MST)

I stopped reading this Class

Specifically, I stopped reading this Class when Religion was discounted by the class. When there are more centers of civilization with clerics than there are without them; when people can cast or have cast upon them Plane Shift or otherwise see in person the afterlife or their deities, it is simply not feasible for an entire class to be atheistic. That would be insane. --JRCameron 02:21, 19 November 2011 (MST)

This isn't an isolated case. I get fed up of seeing races and classes that are "atheistic". I don't know if it's just lazy design or authors projecting themselves. In an assumed D&D campaign, deities objectively exist. It's like have a race that doesn't believe that dungeons, or dragons, exist. Individuals might have that misconception but it shouldn't be generalized to a whole class. Marasmusine (talk) 01:06, 1 August 2013 (MDT)