Talk:War Hulking Hurler (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

Wow

Wow, I know what character I am being in the next campaign that I don't DM ;). This is a amazing build, for example this centaur could throw a chinook helicopter at 18th level... I am impressed. --Green Dragon 12:37, 4 November 2006 (MST)

I don't mean to be a prick but the rune of righteous might won't work. It says that any thrown weapon that leave's the character will go back to it's normal size. So while it will give you the plus 4 to strength. It won't let you increase your size to huge and throw a weapon that's also enlarged. --Sakurasboy

Who says the weapon is enlarged? This is a build that can pick up random large objects and hurl them at enemies. —Sledged (talk) 11:42, 18 August 2008 (MDT)

Oh wait I get it. It's not that the thrown weapon is enlarge, it's that your carrying capacity is enlarged. My bad. Sorry for criticizing your build! *blushes* --Sakurasboy

Half Minotaur

couln't this build be much stonger with the half minotaur template, its only +1LA so add it to somthing like an centaur for huge str with a +1 La,so you loose 1 level of war hulk but the benafits are worth it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.54.107.6 (talk • contribs) 21:00, 24 March 2007 (MST). Please sign your posts.

Half-Minotaur, that was added by IP 67.190.49.140 on 10:30, 29 March 2007 (MDT), was removed because it is not OGC

Not a bad idea. In fact, probably any +1 LA template would better than the level of berzerk I mentioned in the side notes. I'll take a look at the half-minotaur template as soon as I get my hands on a copy of Dragon #313. —Sledged (talk) 14:27, 26 March 2007 (MDT)

If the Base Creature was of Small or Medium size, its size is increased by one category

A centaur is a Large creature so it wouldn't get the benefit of the size increase. However, it's still a good addition. I think I'll look around and see what other +1 LA templates are out there.

As a side note, for Small and Medium creatures (especially Medium because of reach), by no means should this be +1 LA template (just going on the combined +12 Str boost alone, not to mention the +6 Con boost). At minimum it's a +2 LA, and I'm more inclined to go with a +3. I don't know what the author(s) was thinking when this template assigned that LA. —Sledged (talk) 13:38, 11 April 2007 (MDT)

Is that template above OGC? --Green Dragon 21:41, 11 April 2007 (MDT)

I'm almost certain it's not. —Sledged (talk) 10:31, 12 April 2007 (MDT)

After a bit of rethinking, I might redo this build with a bariaur (Planar Handbook) and the half-minotaur template. A bariaur is a medium quadruped with only a +1 LA, so the build won't have any racial HD (unless the template adds HD), a greater reach, and a lower LA allowing more full class levels and HD. —Sledged (talk) 10:31, 12 April 2007 (MDT)

Scratch that. Bariaurs are outsiders so they don't qualify for the template. —Sledged (talk) 21:12, 12 April 2007 (MDT)

Ok, Unless someone can find a Medium quadruped that's either of the giant, humanoid, or monstrous humanoid types, I've decided to go with the Lolth-touched template (Monster Manual IV). +6 Str and +6 Con, +1 LA. —Sledged (talk) 10:16, 3 May 2007 (MDT)

Here is what you do, you take the race 'Goliath' from races of stone, and add the half-minotaur template, since powerful build doesn't actually increase size, you are treated as a medium creature for the template and made large. Now powerful build treats you as huge instead of large. Also in the Book of Erotic Fantasy, there is a Giantborn template, that when you reach 10 HD increases your size another amount for LA +2, so for LA +4 you could have a gargantuan character. --Sakurasboy 23:41, 29 January 2009 (MST)

A goliath with the half-minotaur template is not a quadruped. With giantborn, I'd rather avoid 3rd party sourcebooks. —Sledged (talk 12:49, 11 February 2009 (MST)

Even Bigger Stones

I'm not sure if this would actually work, so correct me if I am wrong. The spell Shrink Item allows a command word to release the spell (which most DMs would agree is fair to happen midair). If you shrink a boulder down to 1/4000 the mass, you can effectively do 4000x the listed damage. I just don't know about the following things: How much weight can shrink item shrink? It shrinks volume, so obviously higher mass/volume ratios are better. A 20th level caster can shrink 40 feet cubed at once. Also if 40 feet cubed is not heavy enough to maximize this, I'm not sure if it would be fair to say it is possible to group multiple shrunk objects with a common command-word in a net or something and throw that at the target. This one is obviously DM dependent, but could get even more silly... 3075x4000 = 12,300,000 D6. I've always wanted to throw 12 million d6 for damage... --Aarnott 16:21, 11 April 2007 (MDT)

Because I'm a big nerd, I just calculated the mass of lead that can be shrunk by a 20th level wizard: 28,317.3 pounds. Basically to meet the max with a single material (and 20th level caster), you would need a material 86800x more dense than lead :-(. There has got to be a spell out there that increases mass somehow, but until then, this is *extremely* DM reliant. --Aarnott 16:34, 11 April 2007 (MDT)

I should have used the name "creature catapult." A few these centaurs will end a siege quickly. —Sledged (talk) 10:31, 12 April 2007 (MDT)

These things ARE basically siege engines, after all. Also, a feat from the Planar Handbook: Natural Heavyweight. Heritage feat, but can be taken at any level- at a higher level, the fluff explanation is that the benefit of you heritage is "only just manifesting itself." On to the crunch: On a normal gravity plane (I.E. the Material Plane) you get +2 on Climb and Jump checks, but take a -2 penalty on Balance, Ride, Swim and Tumble checks because you feel so light and bouyant. Also, your carrying capacity is DOUBLED. Somehow, I think doubling the size of the rock you're throwing would increase the damage this guy does. Have to lose the level of Master Thrower, though, because Precise Shot is the only feat that's not a prerequisite for War Hulk or Hulking Hurler. --Son of Urza 11:03, 10 May 2007 (MDT)

I was kinda attached to that level of master thrower. I'll have to look around for a different class for that 20th ECL. Maybe fighter and take the feat Power Throw or Leap Attack (both from the Complete Adventurer). —Sledged (talk) 23:13, 11 May 2007 (MDT)

You could also take another level of Hulking Hurler for the Overburdened Heave two-handed hurl trick, thus allowing you to throw anything up to your MEDIUM load. This doubles the weight you can throw. Again. --Son of Urza 15:02, 15 June 2007 (MDT)

Now that I think about it, I might go back and get that level of master thrower and select weak spot so he only has to make a touch attack. The base damage is high enough already. Even without the Munchkin-Size Me section and rage, he does 336d6 points of damage (1176 average). —Sledged (talk) 11:29, 7 August 2007 (MDT)

Featured Article Nomination

I nominate this article for featured article status because it truly is a great optimization. The optimization behind this page, even though it could use a little formatting work, is one-of-a-kind. --Green Dragon 01:19, 4 July 2008 (MDT)

I'll get it up to par after I finish a couple of 4e templates. —Sledged (talk) 18:46, 6 July 2008 (MDT)

I stopped the FA nomination since it hasn't really been improved. --Green Dragon 02:56, 23 December 2008 (MST)

Augmented Tattoo

An augmented tattoo of Expansion would double the carrying capacity again. --Aarnott 07:46, 19 August 2008 (MDT)

Feats

Also, are all the feats required? I figured out a way to multiply the damage by 4000, but it requires a cohort wizard (Leadership)...

Basically, You will have a 16th CL cohort that casts Wall of Iron enough times that there is 4000x the amount you can lift (approx 582.455253 cubic feet... for the light load). One casting at CL 16 will give 133 and 1/3 cubic feet. This means it will take approximately 17,474 castings in order to create enough iron for a light load. A specialist wizard using heighten spell, should be able to do this in 1 942 days (5 years).

Well you are going to have to go longer... A lot longer. Have your wizard also have some cool ranks in Craft (weapon making). Have him continue making iron, but use Fabricate to turn it into masterwork weapons. Sell these to turn in a handsome profit. You will need approximately 53 million gold.

Buying 4,659 wands of Shrink Item you will be able to shrink the entire massive pile of iron that took 5 years to create. Of course, if you were allowed to create custom magic items, it would be 3x5x2000 /2 (duration factor) = 15,000 gp for an at will Shrink Item glove instead of 53 million... Regardless, it will take 2.7 days of zapping the wand over and over. The centaur can now throw the massive iron block and the wizard can have a readied action to speak the command word. KABOOM!

With custom item creation, I would make an extended Shrink Item glove with CL 20: 4x20x2000 /2 = 80,000 gp. This would reduce the time to shrink the iron to less than 24 hours. Heck, you could have several Wall of Iron glove sets to speed up the Iron wall creation. --Aarnott 08:53, 19 August 2008 (MDT)

The last feat (Natural Heavyweight) is the only optional feat, and I was thinking about ditching it and going back to Precise Shot for a level of master thrower and selecting weak spot. Getting a Leadership score up to 23 might be a bit tricky, and it's subject to the DM whether or not the LA counts towards the leadership score and the cohort's max level. —Sledged (talk) 11:49, 19 August 2008 (MDT)

You only need a 21 leadership. I was factoring a level 15 wizard with an ioun stone in my calculations. Of course you could also get an archmage level there for the +1 CL. To get the 21 leadership: 17 HD + 3 (+6 cloak of charisma) + 2 (4 wish spells) -1 cha. Of course, I would argue he would get a +1 for the "special power", so 2 of the wishes probably are not necessary... That, and I doubt you need that 12 starting wisdom. That would ditch the other 2 wishes and require only a +4 cloak. --Aarnott 12:37, 19 August 2008 (MDT)

Tauric Template

I don't know if you knew about the Tauric template cheese? But basically, the templates added to the lower half of the body dont apply to the ECL.

I was able to make one that is able to deal 1.821252086461621003986995537647e+83 d6+699 with the overburdened heave! --Zook1shoe 12:21, 6 January 2009 (MST)

Yes, there is an absurd amount of cheese in SS. It kinda takes the fun out of optimization for me, so I've had to put it on my restricted sources list. —Sledged (talk 12:49, 11 February 2009 (MST)

Problem with War Hulk

This may not be something you really care about, but if you take levels in war hulk, you can no longer have ranks in spot, and hence NEVER qualify for the Distant Shot epic feat which allows you to target anything you can see. By the time you reach level 20 creatures like dragons will simply fly outside your range. --Sakurasboy 23:44, 29 January 2009 (MST)

That is a limitation worth noting. —Sledged (talk 12:49, 11 February 2009 (MST)

Vow of Poverty

If you want to ignore things like DR Magic, take Vow of Poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds, eventually it makes all the weapons you use be treated as +5, so if you throw a rock it makes it a +5 magical rock for purposes of defeating DR. --Sakurasboy 23:44, 29 January 2009 (MST)

There's more to be lost than gained with VoP (at least towards the goal of this build). Specifically, can't use magic items that aid in stat-boosting and size-increasing. And when you're dealing over a thousand points of damage with each hit, even the typical DR that epic creatures have becomes irrelevant. —Sledged (talk 12:49, 11 February 2009 (MST)

Given the Lolth-Touched template the sanctified Template could be useful in increasing abilities and getting your character away from the dark side.

Flaws?

If you add flaws you can optimize this one further. Frenzied berserker can get you an extra +8 strength for 1 level. Kensai can get you +8 strength in 2 levels. Bear warrior for +4 strength in 1 level. Animal devotion (Complete Champion feat) can get you a +8 sacred bonus to strength. You could even get animal devotion by taking a cleric level and swapping a domain for it. You can also get your weapon focus feat that way.

Also, 10 levels of ur priest will net you a higher str bonus than 10 levels of war hulk because you can cast greater consumptive field for +20 str and death knell for +2 str. I'm sure there are a lot of other cleric spells that can increase your str score. Yeah. Ur priest is a stupid PrC.

I'm sure there are other ways to complicate this build (and optimize it more). But I think that's a good start. --Aarnott 20:02, 26 April 2009 (MDT)