Talk:Vulpes Flos (5e Race)

The title spells flos with a lowercase f, while the page uses an uppercase F. Which is correct? SirSprinkles (talk) 05:20, 3 April 2024 (MDT)

IDK, honestly. I could go through and change all the F's in f's. habit of using the shift key to much.--Frostboi27 (talk) 08:04, 3 April 2024 (MDT)

Deja Vu

Wasn't this another race?--Yanied (talk) 09:27, 3 April 2024 (MDT)

You are correct, this is a renamed version of Gandelren (5e Race). I should probably copy over the talk from that page. SirSprinkles (talk) 17:49, 3 April 2024 (MDT)

Gandelren talk page

Some issues:

Truesight is too strong to grant a race.

How do you create vines? Does it require an action?

Both of the spellcasting traits are too strong. One grants three cantrips, when the standard is one cantrip, when the other lets you cast a 3rd-level spell at will.

The seeded condition can be removed by a "dispelling attack" but doesn't state what that is. SirSprinkles (talk) 04:49, 15 December 2023 (MST)

Ok I made them less powerful, and only 1 cantrip, 1st level spell, and the commune with nature.--frostboi27 11:16, 15 December 2023 (MST)

I removed the Large size and leech seed, and adapted some of the other features. I know it's tempting to have a lot of powerful features for a race. This is still possible, and I handle this by having a "racial class" that spreads the powerful features over class levels. Let me know if you'd like this approach. Marasmusine (talk) 13:59, 5 January 2024 (MST)

Additional bits: This needs the trait per its elemental type, which gives it immunity to the few spells targeting specifically humanoids (and some other types). Also, for the viney ribbon, should that be specifically considered an unarmed strike, when calculating proficiency? Otherwise, it looks a lot better than when it started.--Yanied (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2024 (MST)

So, I don't want to get rid of Toxic Chain, cause its cool, and without it, its kinda bland, in my eyes. Nether their large size, cause its more unique, and It gives more flare to the backstory to the hunters, them being big means easier targets to find. I am ok with no leech seed, but without these, it's not what I envisioned.--Frostboi27 (talk) 12:22, 10 January 2024 (MST)

Well, as much as cool is nice, it is important for a race to be balanced and playable. If you want the overpowered parts, you might want to consider Maras' suggestion on a composite race-class. It changes the race's more powerful parts into later class features so it's not broken out the gate.--Yanied (talk) 20:40, 10 January 2024 (MST)

Yah, you should understand that Large is not a cosmetic change. Head over to 5e Race Design Guide#<Race Name> Traits and scroll down to where it says "Why not Large?".

In a super casual game or one-off game, sure, have a Large PC. However, articles on this wiki are expected to be usuable by anyone in their game without unbalancing the adventures.

There have been a few attempts to make Large races balanced, including my rather unsatisfactory "oversized weapons" variant rule. Right now I am of the opinion that a race should be Medium then have Large size unlocked with a racial class level.

Now, Toxic Chain. 1) "damaging or effecting action on a creature" is inexact. Does this mean damage as a result of an attack? Melee and Ranged? Weapon and Spell Attacks? Does it include damage caused by, say, a fireball spell? Then there's a 15% chance on every "effecting action" (so you are rolling an extra d20 with every "damage") to impart the Poisoned condition, which itself is overpowered. Is the poison damage dealt at the start of each of the targets turns? Then there's a fixed DC which reduces over time (I presume that's what "losing 1 every turn" means?) - instead of the D&D standard of a DC based on your proficiency and an ability score which a target repeats at the end of each of their turns (usually with a maximum duration of 1 minute). This is just a whole mess of non-standard mechanics, and it needn't be.

Fixes are: 1) Be clear on what triggers this (I chose "melee attacks"), 2) remove the Poisoned condition, 3) Be succinct on when/how often it triggers (I chose once between rests considering the damage), 4) Use standard DC calculation, 5) Balance the damage (I chose a one-off poison damage, but this can be reworked into damage over time). Marasmusine (talk) 07:36, 11 January 2024 (MST)

I will have another go at rewriting toxic chain. What is the most important thing about it? The poisoned condition, the poison damage, or the ongoing effect? Pick two. Note that, if we introduce racial class levels, a racial feature can be improved with levels (such as the damage dealt or the number of times it can be used, etc). Marasmusine (talk) 07:50, 11 January 2024 (MST)

mainly its when you do anything harmful to a target, then you roll for a small (very slim) chance for poisoning the target, and easy to cure. the toxic chain is when you attack. evan spells. and the "viney ribbons" is supposed to increase the chance with its attack.. i listed it in the description of this attack. and you are correct about the reducing time for the poison. one turn, its 14, then the next turn, its 13. its a slim chance to poison, and when it succeeds, its small extra damage. in my eyes, its a decent ability.--Frostboi27 (talk) 09:01, 11 January 2024 (MST)

Instead of rolling an additional d20 every time, you could just have it trigger if you roll an 18 to 20 on an attack roll, it's the same odds.

With Viney Ribbon, this is effectively a weapon with finesse and reach that requires no hands and delivers an ongoing poisoned condition and poison damage on a broad critical hit range. I wouldn't even write that as a magic item, let alone a racial trait.

Compare with the 1st level spell Ray of Sickness. Your racial trait can't be any more powerful than that (and consider a spell to be a once-between-short-rests ability). Marasmusine (talk) 09:40, 11 January 2024 (MST)

ok, so the critical hit idea makes sence, and I made it like that. als, I made the viny ribbon ability do less damage, so the toxic chain is less stronger in reality.--Frostboi27 (talk) 12:46, 11 January 2024 (MST)

It is still not balanced, and still not worded correctly (it still doesn't say what d20 rolls. Attack rolls? Melee? Ranged? Spell?) and I don't know what to do except fix it myself, because repeatedly dissecting the revisions is going to get tiring (especially since there are other pages like Cindsler (5e Race) that need fixing). Toxic chain is still a chance of a very strong ongoing condition with ongoing damage. You can have a small effect on a critical hit; or you can have a stronger effect if the feature has limited uses between rests. I can perhaps envisage some other mechanic, such has having a pool of points that refreshes between rests, and when you score the critical hit you can draw from that pool for an ongoing effect, but that's getting fiddly (more of a class feature really). If you want powerful features, spreading it out over class levels are the way to go. I can get the ball rolling on that if you wish. Marasmusine (talk) 06:51, 12 January 2024 (MST)

I you're curious what a racial class looks like, there aren't many examples, but here's one I made a while back: Alien Grey (5e Race). Marasmusine (talk) 09:26, 12 January 2024 (MST)

So I gave the toxic chain a limit of 3, but to me, it's really pushing it. And it only works if you're doing poison, slashing, or necrotic damage, or any spell that effects the target.--Frostboi27 (talk) 10:18, 12 January 2024 (MST)

Okay, I've given this another shot with a racial class. Hopefully you can see where things have been moved to (e.g. toxic chain over there at 2nd level). I think I have a tendency to underpower classes (e.g. is leech seed cool enough for a 1st level ability? I was going to make this toxic chain, but I figured a 1st level power should be useful all the time and not just something triggered on a crit), so perhaps more experienced users can evaluate this, thanks. Marasmusine (talk) 08:20, 18 January 2024 (MST)

Please don't change the Toxic Chain points cost to 1. The points are balanced like the elemental monk, where the points cost is spell level + 1 (and regaining them after short rests). Toxic Chain is the equivalent of a 1st level spell, so it is 2 points to use it. Depending on how often you take short rests, that could be 3 or more times per day, which is pretty good. Similarly, the points are lost regardless of if the target makes its saving throw. Spellcasters don't get their spell slot back for a failed spell. Marasmusine (talk) 09:19, 19 January 2024 (MST)

Ok, I understand you, but what about leech seed? if it just saps a little bit of hp, it (to me) needs more to it. I put the paralyses there so it seems more ok. Granted, I need to put a time on it, but that's my only problem.--Frostboi27 (talk) 11:52, 19 January 2024 (MST)

I agree that leech seed isn't quite what it is in the Pokemon games. I needed a 1st level power that is always "ready" and with an iconic feel (look at the 1st level features of the PHB classes: the rogue's sneak attack; the fighter's styles; barbarian's rage, etc). I didn't want it to be toxic chain, as that only occurs on a critical hit. Leech seed was the only feature from your original writeup that I hadn't incorporated yet, so I tried something in the spirit of that. I'll have a think about how to give it a bit more "oomph". It can't be paralysis though, that is a very strong condition (Hold Monster is a 5th level spell). Marasmusine (talk) 15:28, 19 January 2024 (MST)

Those staples of the classes are also somewhat either temp or situational. In this case, if leech seed has to have any additional effect, how about capitalizing on the flavor of sapping vitality? Disad to con saves until end of next turn (or something)--Yanied (talk) 22:27, 19 January 2024 (MST)

I've adjusted it so that it is a minor ongoing thing that does damage + gives THP. I'm not sure I have given the class a well defined role, seems to be a little bit of everything. Marasmusine (talk)

I think that should be an expectation for racial-class composites. Flavorwise, races are supposed to be parts of a world, so they aren't as specialized in X roles as a class would be, in my opinion.--Yanied (talk) 13:10, 20 January 2024 (MST)

So what I said before, forget it. I did not really read it, so I didn't really realize how awesome it was. I'm gonna change It back, and keep the healing.--Frostboi27 (talk) 07:25, 23 January 2024 (MST)

When I get chance I'll go through Photosynthesis and try and make it fit the rules better and look at the balance (for example, it should still do something even without sunlight ... some adventures take place for an extended time in dungeons.) Marasmusine (talk) 12:38, 24 January 2024 (MST)

Blanked page

While it's of course possible to revert, blanking the page can be seen as a deletion request by the main contributor. I guess the only question is whether or not Frostboi was the "sole significant" contributor.

Either way, it's unfortunate. This was one of few race pages that had both an original idea and so much effort to back it up. - Guy 14:44, 14 March 2024 (MDT)

Oh. Lmao, nevermind. They just renamed it. - Guy 14:46, 14 March 2024 (MDT)

You are correct. Gandelren is a horrible name. "Vulpes Flos" Is "Fox Flower" In latin, so It makes more sense than 3 syllables put together that don't mean anything. And go ahead and delete it, I would do It myself, But I don't Know How (Not That Experienced with templates). And What Is this "Move Function" You Speak Of?--Frostboi27 (talk) 07:45, 15 March 2024 (MDT)