Talk:Urbanite (3.5e Flaw)

Knowledge (nature) and Survival are group skills. In most circumstances, only one person in the party needs to be making these rolls. This flaw represents a free feat for a character not expected to make these rolls. Marasmusine (talk) 13:20, 26 July 2017 (MDT)

By that logic, all skills are group skills. "That's okay, I'll just get my bard friend to make Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate/Sense Motive checks." "That's okay, I'll just get my wizard friend to make Knowledge checks." "That's okay, I'll just get my cleric friend to make Listen and Spot checks." etc. This is perfectly within reason for the Flaw rules; your personal opinion notwithstanding. Especially given the added caveat of the flaw. Lord Nevermore 14:24, 26 July 2017 (MDT)

Indeed, Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate are Charisma-based skills, specifically called out in UA:Character Flaws as being unsuitable for a flaw. There are non-group skills :the physical ones such as climbing, listen, spot, swim, etc. Marasmusine (talk) 15:14, 26 July 2017 (MDT)

You should look up, oh, the official Feeble ("That's okay, I'll just use a spell instead or get the Fighter to do it; heck, I'm not even putting ranks in any of those skills!") and Inattentive flaws then. And the traits (which are essentially just lesser flaws that give a perk rather than a feat) Abrasive, Dishonest, Suspicious and Uncivilized, too. The point is, you can use that asinine logic to devalue ANY flaw. "Noncombatant? That's okay, I'll just use ranged attacks and spells." "Pathetic? That's okay, I'll just put the penalty in my dump stat." etc. Lord Nevermore 16:44, 26 July 2017 (MDT)

It's reasonable to say that every character can be expected to make Str, Con or Dex checks. These are very common. If everyone needs to climb up the cliff, everyone needs to make a Climb check. Feeble does not penalize capabilities that can be handed off to on player every time. Same for Inattentive, it is common for everyone to make these rolls.

Traits are designed differently. The benefits and drawbacks are always related.

However, I believe this flaw can be altered to make it always relevant to the character taking it, I was too harsh in proposing it for deletion.

I'm looking through the published flaws, and there's one called City Slicker from Dragon magazine #324. It is very similar (-4 to Knowledge(Nature) and Survival Checks), with two differences: 1) It has a prerequisite that Survival be a class skill (so now you are the ranger that everyone expects to forage for food), and 2) it also has a -4 penalty to Handle Animal.

Perhaps something similar can be done here. Marasmusine (talk) 02:29, 27 July 2017 (MDT)

Just as a minor point of contention, I would argue it is not reasonable to say every character can be expected to make STR, DEX and CON checks, or any other check, really. Even base classes regularly go around these. Climbing is solved by wizards as soon as they reach level 3 (Levitate ends the argument, at that point), and arguably sooner with splatbooks, or even with clever applications of lower level SRD Spells (Jump, Animate Rope, or even just having the party fighter toss a rope down, tie it around your waste, and have them pull you up).

That said, I'm all for improving the page. I feel like you could probably make the fatigue penalty for not having proper lodgings a definite thing, personally. As for the party skills vs. individual skills, I don't feel that strongly about it, but I agree with Nevermore. It's a flaw, and it applies a numerical negative value to the user's skills, and most normal flaws can be gamed in some way, some how. While I personally adopt a different standard on balancing flaws (as evidenced by most of my own and their severity), that is balanced to SRD, as far as I can say.

I do think having a requirement for Survival as a class skill is fine, though. --Jwguy (talk) 17:52, 27 July 2017 (MDT)

If the original author of this flaw desires for Survival to not be a prerequisite, would it possibly be worth considering that a character with the Urbanite Flaw is so inadept with the Wilderness lifestyle that they cause penalties to carry over entirely or partially to their teammates? Perhaps by being a general oaf and dragging the party behind, they hinder and/or delay the ranger. --Jety_Lefr (talk) 10:57, 21 October 2017 (EST)