Talk:Truenamer (5e Class)

I apologize in advance, I am still working on the Utterances, they should be done soon. I just wanted some feedback on the Truenamer. --Seraphim Rush (talk) 04:37, 26 September 2015 (MDT)

What about giving them some more weapons to use so that they have something to do in the round that they cannpt use their utteranaces or give them spellcasting to go with utterances not full but some. otherwise you will be targeted and taken out because you cannot make utterances twice in a row.

My idea of a truenamer would be more like the namers in the name of the wind. where once you learn the name of an element you may call it at will but you must first figure out the name wich is not a spoken word but something deeper and more meaningfull.

I don't quite understand what you mean by "cannot make utterances twice in a row". They cannot state the same utterance twice in a row, this is true. So if they use a bonus action to speak Keen Weapon for an ally and then use their action for a reversed Word of Nurturing on an enemy, it is true that they could not speak those same Utterances on the next turn. However, it does not stop them from speaking Defensive Edge as a Reaction and then when his or her turn comes back around using Rapid Utterance for Speed of the Zephyr as their bonus action, followed by Agitate Metal on their next turn as an action.

--Seraphim Rush (talk) 22:02, 22 October 2015 (MDT)

i have a problem where can i figure out what these utterances do???

I apologize, I have not completed putting the Truenamer's Utterances in. However, they will be done soon. There are currently all of the level 1 and level 2 Utterances. I haven't linked them from the page, but if you search the name of the Utterance they are 5e spells. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_Utterances

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I changed the how their Reality Point regen works. Having so few per day was just not enough and could not keep up with other spellcasting classes. It is up to full regen at a short rest from 1/8 total points. I do not want to give them a large pool of points at the end game because I don't want the, casting 10 or so highest level spells. --Seraphim Rush (talk) 02:02, 25 October 2015 (MDT)

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Are the other utterances going to be added soon. My GM said to go head on this class, so now I'm happily waiting for the new utterances.

   -Ender

The other utterances are complete.

   --Seraphim Rush (talk) 00:10, 26 February 2016 (MST)

YAYS THANK YOU!!!

    -Ender

Incomplete

I was asked why this is still marked as incomplete.

• "creating a truenamer" section is blank
• There are levels where you gain no feature (5, 9, 14, 17). For a spellcaster, this occurs when you gain a new spell slot level, but that doesn't match up here, where the maximum "utterance" level goes up at 2, 6, 10, 14, 18 (okay, that's one match at 14th)
• Ordering: talks about utterances in Truspeech and Commands, before they are actually explained.
• Typos.
• "Intelligence check equal to 20-Your Truenamer Level" - the idea here is to have a check that scales with your level, but it does so in an unnecessarily nonstandard way: this is what proficiency bonus is for. It also doesn't explain what is involved in learning a truename (is it an action or does it take longer? Do you have to see the creature or just know about it? Can I repeat the check?). The commands do not seem to allow the target a saving throw, so there seems to be a good chance of controlling, say, a legendary creature for 1 minute? Seriously?
• "...and use them as a Wizard at your Truenamer level. " is unneeded. It's strength is based on your character level.
• I don't have time to go through the other features today, but I see problems everywhere.
• Finishes with a list of utterances, but doesn't explain them. Are they supposed to link somewhere?
• It looks like utterances are spells, please call them spells for the purpose of mechanical definition. You can still say they are known as utterances. Marasmusine (talk) 02:21, 18 January 2017 (MST)

Okay, "you must make an Intelligence(Arcana) check equal to your 20- your proficiency bonus" isn't quite what I meant. You already add your proficiency bonus when you make a skill check. If the idea is just for the check to become easier as you gain levels, why not just:

• "You must make a DC 20 Intelligence (Arcana) check"? Marasmusine (talk) 10:19, 18 January 2017 (MST)

• There should be minimal typos.
• The levels where no feature is gained the Truenamer gains an Utterance.
• The Utterances level up unconventionally because they only go to 6th level.
• I think the ordering has been addressed for the most part. It bothered me while I was writing it and tried to determine where the ordering should be.
• Agreed on the Intelligence check. It has been removed. The Truespeech Commands have been restored. The ability "Inquire the Universe" or through some other researching means, as determined by the GM, are the only ways to derive a Truename.
• I was too dumb to link all of the Utterances, "spells" before. Thank you whoever did that.
• I suppose it is redundant to say as a "Wizard at your Truenamer level", but I was considering multiclassing so if the Truenamer picks up Fighter levels for some reason they would not count in this check.
• Utterances were originally designed to be different than spells, but have since been modified to be treated as spellcasting.
• I really appreciate your feedback. It did let me know that someone had severely modified the page.--Seraphim Rush (talk) 00:04, 23 February 2017 (MST)

• With cantrips their damage is based off your total level, including non-spellcasting class this is to keep them relevant if you multiclass and it is not unbalenced because every class has better things to be doing then casting a cantrip

• Truespeech Commands is really broken because once you learn your allies truename, which wouldn't take long because you could use all of your Inquire the Universe uses everyday to try learn them, at level 19 presuming you have 20 Int then you can cast power word heal 6! times

• Then the Obscure Truename and Truename Backlash are only useful against other truenamers and a few high level spells which are likely to be very rarely useful

There are more problems but these two biggest I found and I need to be working now so I won't write up the others

So unless this class is for roleplay focused games it still needs a lot of work improving its mechanics to be playable and it definitely should not be given to a power gamer.

Babosa (talk) 02:06, 7 August 2018 (MDT)

Recent criticism

There are numerous wording, standardization, and possibly balance issues which persist, but perhaps of most immediate concern are two issues:

1. Why does this class have a plethora of supplemental pages? Why are they not limited to this page, or subpages of this page? There's several entire categories dedicated to this one class. Not even first-party classes clutter this wiki's infrastructure that much.
2. Why was the previous version of this class completely overwritten? On this wiki, there's a thing called preserving spirit and intent, which I believe has been violated here. - Guy 15:58, 23 August 2018 (MDT)

Regarding recent criticism

I do realize the page is still considered incomplete at the time of the previous criticism, but those are legitimate concerns.

1. Supplemental pages have become very useful in organizing the new infrastructure introduced by this class. Imagine if the Wizard class had to leave all its spells on its main page? I have done my best to properly link the pages to each other so they exist in harmony, but since they are causing the Wiki to become cluttered, I will move them to subpages to clean everything up once the class is finished. I had no idea I was making such a mess and I'm more than willing to clean it up.
2. If you take a look at the Tome of Magic from which this class was derived, you will see that the changes reflect a merging between the original class built by D&D in 3.5 and the hard work already put in by Seraphim Rush, Marasmusine and Babosa. What they were attempting to do was to build a viable 5e port. I've taken a look at the Spirit and Intent page, and it seems not to be disturbed, as their work is the backbone for the full 5e port. Consider the last comment made by Babosa: "...So unless this class is for roleplay focused games it still needs a lot of work improving its mechanics to be playable and it definitely should not be given to a power gamer." I have put a lot of work doing exactly this, using only the original 3.5 texts, the existing class here, and original 5e rules to improve the mechanics of this class so that DMs everywhere will both be able to understand and accept it as a viable option for players.

I have taken care of the broken truespeech command, Obscure truename and Truename backlash are useful again. Cantrips have been removed in favor of Utterance flexibility. Arcana checks have been re-introduced for a trial run, typos have been eradicated (they ran rampant), Inquire the Universe has been renovated with the heart of the original texts while still retaining simplicity. Utterances are again different than spells as originally intended. There are no longer levels where the Truenamer has no feat using the original text to fill in the blanks. Truenamer paths have been added and balanced, the Fiendbinder is still hidden though as it is the most complex path by far. The original Lexicons have been added to the Utterance collection, and Personal Truenames are useful again and have been simplified for the sake of 5e, but they are not so easy to learn that any enemy at any moment is at your mercy. Overall, the OP-ness of the class has been significantly tamed at the request of many DMs, while the versatility has been dramatically improved.

Regarding the "numerous wording, standardization, and possibly balance issues which persist" please elaborate, I'm trying my best to make everything work in harmony. I've put 10 days of work into translating over 100 pages of 3.5e texts and studying 5e solutions to them, so there's bound to be some issues.

Taezel (talk) 13:00, 24 August 2018 (MDT)

Checking In

First of all, I like what you have done here, mostly. I learned a lot int he original draft and play-testing for this class. I do have some recommendations right off the bat. I think you did a great job of revamping this class to be honest. Truespeach command was super busted, the Reality Point system was extremely annoying to manage and I think that the way this is set up now is streamlined. I do have some tweaks that I think would significantly benefit this class and make more sense.

Their initial skill set should be: Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Performance and Religion.

My reasoning to remove Deception, Intimidation and Persuasion is that in their original lore they are very intelligent, have vast knowledge, and originally, no face skills. Performance, I would argue, can be oratory and that is something a Truenamer should be fantastic at.

I think "Truename language" should be "Ancient Lexicon".

I really like how the paths are laid out here as the original prestige classes (Fiendbinder is missing. I think some tweaks are due here, more on that later.

Utterances and how to use them is a bit of a mess. The way it currently stands the player can cast infinitely at disadvantage. Also, the Truename Spells are a bit awry and I think these can be implemented better.

The Universal Laws Sequence makes sense currently and need not be changed. Resistance is currently a little broken. My recommendation here is to have spell slots. A Truenamer is basically hacking into the code of the universe using commands to do as they wish. Setting this up like a Warlock meets your intent and keeps it balanced. They recover these Utterance spell slots on a short or long rest. The universe will not simply allow a weak person to cast all they want and a stronger person can bend the universe a little further. Also, the higher-level Utterances, 5-6 on Evolving Mind, 4-5 on the Crafted Tool, and 3-4 on the Perfected map, should only be able to be used once per long rest. Also Personal Truenames (other than your own) should only be able to be affected once per long rest.

To be in line with 5e all of the words of nurturing need to be combined into a single word of nurturing that can be cast at higher levels up to 6th in this case. The fact it can be said forward or backward as a single spell is pretty great in and of itself. To keep utterances unique, I do think that once a Truenamer learns an utterance it cannot be replaced at the higher levels.

I think the Crafted Tool Column needs to be pushed up to 3rd level and the perfected map needs to be pushed up to 5th level if it is necessary to keep them separate. A Truenamer should be able to perform at least 1 of their greatest Utterances at level 17. Level 4 Perfected Map should start at 17, Level 5 Crafted Tool should start at 17, and Level 6 Evolving Mind should start at 17. Looking at what the spells originally did… selecting a first level or second level spell equivalent at level 7 just isn’t happening. A Sorcerer or a Wizard gets their 9th level spells, such as Gate at level 17 why should the Truenamer have to wait until 20 (Conjunctive Gate)? I do like the flavor of the separate lexicons, but I think the separation is better left to fluff. If they must remain separate, they should be at least close in power or effect to a sorcerer’s spell at the same level. Also, I assume Truespeak is basically a spell attack which is Proficiency + INT + any mods + d20. This makes this way too powerful against low Int creatures like CR6 Young White Dragon. In the current setup you need to beat a 6 and with disadvantage I still only need to roll a 2 to not fail. I think your character should know how to speak utterances and have the creature save with an appropriate stat. I disagree firmly with the item DC chart. A legendary item by nature should be “Nearly Impossible” to manipulate which is defined as CR 30. Artifacts should be a case by case basis per the DMs discretion. Scale down from there (also a mundane item has no reason to need a save). Common 10, Uncommon 15, Rare 20, Very Rare 25 might be decent scaling. I assume this would be the Truespeak spell attack vs a DC you don’t know on an item.

The Lexicon of the Perfected Map DC should scale with Utterance level. A 4th level one should be 20 so you have a slightly better than 50% chance of not failing. I would recommend 16 + Utterance level.

I don’t think Known Personal Truename should be used for a spell check, but perhaps it should be Personal Truename Mastery and used used for your Truename commands and recitations with Expertise (Double Proficiency on your own Truename).

Speaking of Recitations these are also a mess. Basing the DC on one’s INT can be super busted. Especially for that Half Orc Barbarian who dumped INT making that DC 13, and at level 8 you should be at +8 meaning you only need to roll a 5 to succeed there. I think this check should be a flat DC 20. It scales well and gives you a slightly lower than 50/50 shot at level 8 and slightly better than 50/50 shot at level 20 for others. You would have a Slightly better than 50/50 shot at level 8 and nearly guaranteed at level 17 for yourself. I believe that these Recitations should only be able to be done 1/Short Rest (you may only cause an effect on another person's Personal Truename once per long rest).

Recitation of the Fortified state should be +2/-2. I put careful consideration into this because of the nature of 5e AC scaling. This isn’t 3.5. The max AC a character should ever have is 32 with no additional buffs or spells (And that is a real big stretch). What this currently implies is granting a +6 AC which is better than Shield of Faith, Haste, and Warding Bond combined (so a dispel magic followed by your -6 penalty would be busted). It was originally modeled after Shield of Faith for INT rounds to be balanced.

Truename Research should be an Investigation check with modifiers as listed against the 10+CR or Level of the target. The cost of research should be 100xLVL or CR of the target in GP. The item research seems reasonable. (Certain things should be obscure and thus at disadvantage, such as a random gnoll hunter, or an artifact that no one has ever heard a legend of.)

Truespeech Commands should start at level 5 when you can begin Truename Research. I recommend at level 5, 9, 13, and 17 granting an additional command. At level 5 you get Suggestion (that bypasses the charm immunity since you are using their Truename to command them and make an CHA save vs 8+Pro+INT). At 9 you get See the Named (You can see and hear the creature (from any angle for 30’) for up to your INT modifier in minutes and make a CHA save vs 8+Pro+INT). At 13 you get (a slightly lesser) Power Word Stun (CHA save initially vs 8+Pro+INT to negate and then a CON save vs 8+Pro+INT at the end of each of their turns). At 17 You get Power Word Heal and Power Word Kill.

Obscure Personal Truename works and makes that 50/50 shot on a recitation 25% for an enemy. Sending should be up to your INT modifier times per long rest. Since you are not causing an effect to a target’s Personal Truename the and are simply using it as an address for the universe to send a message, you may target the same person with this ability up to your INT modifier times per long rest.

Speak Unto the Masses should only apply to Lexicon of the Evolving Mind and should affect any number of creatures in a 30’ radius. Each of those creatures is entitled to a saving throw against your Utterance. You can only use this ability once per long rest, even if you fail.

Say My Name and I am There is a very powerful capstone ability and should only be useable once per long rest.

--Seraphim Rush (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (MST)

Questions

I have some questions about the class that doesn't quite make sense to me. The first one is the law of resistance. It states if you successfully use truenamer magic and then try to use it again will impose a 1-hour disadvantage to trying. Two questions. First, when does this clock reset? It just says when you try to again it will impose a 1-hour disadvantage but not when it resets to be useable again. The second question is why is this in place? According to the law of sequence which describes truenamer magic as any of the cadence, recitation, syllable, or utterance, that would mean you get to cast one "spell" and after that, it at disadvantage. I also am very confused about how utterances work. It says "At 1st level, you know one Utterance from the Lexicon of the Evolving Mind. You learn more powerful Utterances and access new Lexicons as seen on Table: The Truenamer." but all that the table shows is what level your utterance can be. This makes me wonder about many things. How many utterances do I get, Do I have any form of limitation to casting multiple utterances such as spell slots or a point system or can I just cast them all I want? I have tried reading through the discussion and all the different pages but I still can't seem to find the answer. I really like the class idea but it is hard to understand and it doesn't seem like all the information is there. I hope this helps with the development of this class. --GuyWhoHasn'tMadeAWikiAccount 11:43 3/26/2020 (PDT)