Talk:Tiefling, Sin Variant (5e Race Variant)

A few things:

• Some spells are redlinked (probably because they are not SRD) so that needs some fixes. Spells are also not capitalized, see Help:When to Italicize and Capitalize
• What are these "optional" features? I can understand the appearance bit, since that isn't something very mechanically based. But I don't know any player that would pass up on free flying speed at level 1. Is this supposed to be an option like feral tiefling? If that's the case, shouldn't it replace a subrace?
• The race gaining unconditional or poorly defined expertise is problematic, as expertise is normally a class based thing (add rogue and bard and you'll break the skills). Expertise in race is usually conditional and based on less vague situations it can be applied (see dwarven stonecunning). For Asmodeus, how is attractiveness defined? Such an open-ended thing sounds more like a background feature. Does charm count? For Lucifer, it only affects the creature once, since it is the first time. A bit strange but I guess that works
• Firearms are a variant rule and not used on all tables so that should be disclaimer-ed. Also, race traits that can be used multiple times per rest usually are based off proficiency bonus (see Fizban dragonborn)
• Heredity of the frozen seems way too good considering how much spellcasters can milk out of it.
• Heredity of the coveter is poorly defined and written, and allows for a LOT of arguments at the table to define what is unique to a creature's physiology, as well as how a player even knows this stuff. Kirby-esque or copy abilities are generally very very broken in a race and even hard as it is to use in a class.
• Fighting styles really should not be relegated to races.

Overall, the hereditary traits feels extremely loaded compared to first-party tiefling subraces, which get just ASI and spellcasting. You could probably do without spellcasting for some of the subraces simply due to how strong their heredity is. Overall, just a buffed up tiefling.--Yanied (talk) 14:35, 2 December 2021 (MST)

I removed the optional flying feature, because in hindsight it doesn't strike me as something that a normal Tiefling would have. I originally had it because this was supposed to essentially be the best version of Tiefling I could muster; a sort of combination of all possible versions of Tieflings, and the possibility of wings was in one of those versions. As for the expertise, I added it to the Bloodline of Lucifer because the Heredity skill seemed lack luster in juxtaposition with just about every other one, and I couldn't think of anything that would make it somewhat on par with the others while staying in line with the idea I had for the feature. If its still an issue, I'll just think up something different. I nerfed Heredity of the Frozen and Heredity of the Coveter a little bit, but I'm not sure if its entirely balanced even in this state. I completely changed Heredity of the Courtesan. --Belial (talk) 17:40, 2 December 2021 (MST)

The changes definitely helped. Many of the subraces feel more balanced now with spellcasting and hereditary. Really the ability of the coveter is still the most problematic I can see, but the wording clarification helps narrow it down at least.--Yanied (talk) 19:58, 2 December 2021 (MST)

What else can be done to make Heredity of the Coveter balanced? I can't think of any other possible changes for it. --Belial (talk) 12:23, 6 December 2021 (MST)

I am tempted to say to leave it as is and playtest it. The trait's real oomph comes from its versatility, but it also is a little bit of a wild card due to the players not always knowing what the monster is using. This makes it very hard to use in homebrew campaigns versus games with only official content. This is a powerful trait that might warrant removing some of Invidia's spellcasting options simply due to its potential maybe.--Yanied (talk) 13:02, 6 December 2021 (MST)

I think that's a reasonable idea. Just to be extra careful, I removed the racial 2nd level spell that you get at 5th; I think removing all of the Legacy of Envy's spellcasting options is a bit much, but nixing just the 2nd level seems a suitable compromise to me. I don't know when I'll be able to playtest it, but I'll try it whenever the opportunity arises. --Belial (talk) 11:54, 7 December 2021 (MST)

Yeah it looks good for now until results prove otherwise. At least its a per long rest thing so that could be a decent limit. Use it, and if you flub, it's gone.--Yanied (talk) 14:18, 7 December 2021 (MST)