Talk:Stygian Swordsman (5e Class)

Balance Problems

This class is overpowered compared to first party content. A lot of it is focused on upping the damage dice to absurd extents:

• The Draconic Fury from the dragon subclass grants you basically additional damage in every fight unless you never take damage. And this is from the first level.
• Access to wizard and warlock spell lists are unnecessary given how this class not only has ridiculous synergy with weapon damage, but also with the shadow surges.
• Bilious Conjunction is better than extra attack with the extra damage die. The extra attacks also make this like a martial class
• Consummate Umbrage also adds yet another damage dice.
  

In addition to the brief skim of the features, this class is a fullcaster, with extra attack, and access to one of the most expansive spell lists, as well as many features which only bolster the power of the spells. Maybe it should be cut down to a half or third caster and made into a half martial class, and the emphasis on damage die pared down, with some roleplay and exploration features added instead.--Yanied (talk) 20:07, 29 September 2020 (MDT)

I completely agree, and I have a multitude of other balance edits to suggest:

• Reduce the number of extra attacks from Billious Conjunction. The typical martial/half-martial class only gets one additional attack with this type of feature, and the class's DPR is already unparalleled with the sheer number of dice it rolls per weapon attack.
• Reduce the number of damage dice gained in total across all features of this class, and don't make the same feature increase both damage die size and damage die quantity. Also relegate the additional damage dice to only one of the weapon's damage types. I did the math, and the average Stygian Swordsman at 20th level can, with a basic shortsword, deal over 500 damage with just attacks. This becomes over 1,500 damage if you've chosen certain features that increase number of attacks even further and if you're a Fiend's Darkness subclass, even up to 2,500 with any weapon that deals more than one damage type.
• Reduce the number of shadow charges, and remove the feature that reduces your maximum hit points. Self debuffs aren't really a 5e thing, and even the Berserker Barbarian's exhaustion is frowned upon.
• For features that can repeatedly grant additional damage dice, limit them to only one instance of the increase, or better yet limit the number of times they can be used (or limit them further, as with features that can prevent you from being reduced to 0 HP).
• Class save DCs should all be the same, especially for spellcasters. Doesn't matter if the feature isn't a spell: if it uses a save, it should use the same DC as everything else in the class.
• Passive resistances, advantages, immunities, and all that stuff should be relegated to mid-high level features, especially as the damage type(s) or condition(s) become more common (such as slashing, fire, charmed, cold, poison and poisoned, frightened, piercing, etc.). Anything that just gives you advantage on anything falls under the same category, especially if its for attacks and saves. The more conditional it is, the better for lower levels.
• Aberration's Darkness subclass allows the character to indefinite cast Dominate Monster, and 8th level spell, at 14th level. It only lasts 1 minute, but there's no limit to how often it can be used not is there a limit on how many creatures you can control in this way, since the effect is also not concentration.
• Dragon's Darkness "Tempest of Shadow" has a bonus action ability that is completely useless. Bonus actions are during your turn only, so unless a creature is making a ranged weapon attack against you during your turn (which opportunity attacks don't allow either, as opportunity attacks require melee weapons) you can't use it.
• Material Soul from the Fiend's Darkness subclass is also too powerful. Also, how are you even going to get to another plane of existence at 6th level?
• Blood Will Rain is also too much. Once per long rest is more than fine, especially considering the sheer number of possible attacks and the additional damage on each attack. Tone it way down in addition to this, and I think it'll be fine.
• The Eruption of Darkness feature is just a paladin's smite, but SUPER buff. Tone it way down or even remove it completely, and instead move one of the 2nd-level features to 3rd level.
• Why is this a full caster? Full martial classes only get 1/3 casting, and even then they get restrictions on exactly which spells they can have. If the attacks and damage increases are reduced as needed, this could -maybe- be a 1/2 caster, but no more. I would even argue for zero spellcasting, and if the smites are kept, limit them to uses of shadow charges.
• The pernicious techniques vary widely in balance, especially between the Caliginous Force (overpowered as heck) and Gloaming Maneuvers (useless without a reach weapon, which also doens't synergize with other class features) techniques. These all need to be reworked, except Somber Focus, but that'll become useless if spellcasting is removed so it might need to be removed anyways.
• Fiend's Curse does too much. Nerf it. Nothing more to say here. It should also be renamed, since fey can't fiendishly curse.
• Free flying shouldn't be allowed until ~14th level, as with the draconic sorcerer's feature. It also shouldn't be so fast, and the caveat of weight limit (sorry, Anastacio) also shouldn't exist. Also, since when could dragons dispel illusions?
• Chaos Sleight shouldn't allow indefinite treating of all saves as DEX saves.
• Freedom of Movement for free as passive is insanely powerful, even for 14th level. Other classes do similar things at similar levels but to a lesser extent. The same feature should not also allow you to use all magic items regardless of prerequisites. It's too much.

There's probably even more, but these are the biggest points, and if it seem like something has been missed just reread some of the first, more generic bullet points in this list. Trust me, you'll find I've been pretty thorough, but if there's something that seems glaring that I missed then just add it to your own list or just fix it. I'll give it a couple of days to see if anyone else wants to do an editing spree before I enact any changes of my own. For now, I'm just enjoying laughing by butt off at how ridiculous this class is. Over 2,000 damage per turn! Pffffft! IntellectMaster (talk) 12:00, 1 October 2020 (MDT)

Oh! I almost forgot. If spellcasting is kept, I think a custom spell list might help this feel more like a real class.

Reverted problematic shadowbuff, it shouldn't have ridiculous dice explosions anymore but I'll give it a once-over just in case. I might actually take this one on, I feel like I can maybe gut it and remodel it on a sort of paladin/warlock fusion, maybe using sorcerer-style points for fuel. --Nuke The Earth (talk) 12:19, 1 October 2020 (MDT)

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IM's Thoughts, recorded herein:

Good Features

• 1. Fiend's Darkness subclass feature: Fiendish Beguilement
• 2. Dragon's Darkness subclass feature: Unending Desire's damage converting (remove the gold stuff)
• 3. Dragon's Darkness subclass feature: Dragon's Defense
• 4. Aberration's Darkness subclass feature: All of them except for Force of the Occult (they also need better names, and some even need minor buffs)
• 5. Spellcasting, but half not full, and keep the paladin's smite-like ability but for necrotic damage.
• 6. The d6 hit die and minimal proficiencies.
• 7. A couple situational increases to the number of dice rolled for weapon damage. No all-round imrpovements unless at a higher level, and even then do it like paladin.

--Nuke The Earth (talk) 15:50, 5 October 2020 (MDT)

Rework Notes

• Turn it into a half-caster, Paladin-style, (maybe 1/3 caster?) boost HD to D8 to compensate
• Rework subclasses into Evasion/DPS, Tanky/Frontliner, and mix between the two?
• Keep the Shadow Surges, maybe rename them (Darkness?)

• Refocus the class so its main thing becomes interaction with Shadow Surges, minimal spellcasting
• Main melee damage comes from imbuement, stick a Shadow Surge/Darkness point into the blade for fancy effects

• Needs to focus on interaction between the Stygian and their weapon
• Can be forced into an enemy for damage over time and a Hunter's Mark-esque effect?
• Can be used to generate a small AOE effect, probably a cone, knockback? Extra damage?
• Use Darkness for casting instead of giving spell slots? Alternatively, use Warlock casting rules?

• Feels like it's trying for elements of the Rogue and Warlock too, see what could be integrated

• Give it Sneak Attack, but only half as often as Rogue? Darkness imbuement instead
• Might be better off just as a Warlock subclass, but only as a last resort

My Return to the Class

I have finally come back to this to enact some of my ideas. In my first round of edits, I didn't touch any of the subclass stuff, only the core class. I'm certain I goofed in in one or more places balance or wording-wise, but for now it is enough. I know that it's still a melee-centric d6 class with little to no AC or durability options at the moment, but my plan is for a lot of that to come from various subclass features in widely-varying ways. Round 2 shall focus on the subclasses, and we'll see if I do well from there. I'm also trying to put in SRD links wherever I can, but I know I've missed some spots. Anyways, that's my plan currently. --IntellectMaster (talk) 22:05, 29 May 2021 (MDT)