Talk:Spider Rider (DnD Class)/Archive 1

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Poorly Made

So, since this is very poorly made, would someone like to help make this good by either taking it as their own or discussing here what needs to be done here? --Green Dragon 23:38, 15 January 2007 (MST)

I know I'm stating the obvious, but this class is insanely overpowered. I'd leave BAB alone, because as a mounted class this guy will probably want to be at the front lines most of the time. That said, we should reduce the spellcasting and bonus feats. The paladin doesn't need bonus feats to use her mount, so this guy shouldn't need them for his. The spells per day should be reduced to look more like a ranger or paladin, and the spell list should be specialized to spells that will help him in combat or with his mount (I assume that now it covers the entire Sor/Wiz list, but it's never said on the page). If it's too underpowered after that, some special features may help, and would also make this class more unique and appealing. These are just my suggestions; what do you think? --Martonimos 18:07, 17 April 2007 (MDT)

I agree with everything you said above. Would you like to make the changes or would you prefer that I do? --Green Dragon 23:19, 17 April 2007 (MDT)

I'll take care of it. It will probably take me a while between updates, but I'll do it when I have time. If anyone feels like helping out in the meantime, don't let me stop you.

So far, I've fixed the base save progression, put the class features in the table at appropriate levels, added some description to the class features, reduced the frequency of bonus feats, and made some wikifications (though the page is still a mess). I still plan to work on spells per day and come up with a new spell list specifically for this class, as well as a list of appropriate bonus feats. Also, the entry for the spider itself needs some major work. I'm not sure about the changes I made to the "Bond" ability; I'll have to look at that later. Take a look at the page itself to see the specific changes I made.

As before, if I start doing something out of line, let me know as soon as you can. Thanks. --Martonimos 20:27, 19 April 2007 (MDT)

Already it is looking much better. I did some minor formatting (mainly to the table) and I hope it better now as well. I'll help on the wiki aspects when I have time. Thanks so much for helping this class so far :). --Green Dragon 21:59, 19 April 2007 (MDT)

I have a suggestion. I quite like spiders, and I think the general idea behind this class is a good one. It just needs a rules rewrite. I will completely remove spellcasting, and reduce the number of bonus feats. So, I'll "adopt" this class, and rewrite it. Do you think I should keep the spider leveling up also, or change it? Sam Kay 10:05, 12 June 2007 (MDT)

You could change it so it asks like a druids animal companion. Just a thought. --Green Dragon 10:07, 12 June 2007 (MDT)

I could, but I think think that it should be more elite (at the cost of class features). What penalties could I use to penalize the spider rider. The new one is based on a fighter, with less bonus feats. It will have D8 HD. Keep the suggestions coming, please! Also, should I mark this page as written by me now I have adopted it? Sam Kay 10:29, 12 June 2007 (MDT)

About ownership: Since it is not 100% by you you should use Template:Adopted Article and not Template:Author. --Green Dragon 11:18, 13 June 2007 (MDT)

Is it balanced yet? How much more work on balance do you think it needs? Sam Kay 12:21, 12 June 2007 (MDT)

This class seems a lot more balanced now, however what I am looking at seems boring. You may want to replace the bonus feats with cool spider-related abilities or something, as this class just seems like a weak fighter with a spider for a mount, which does not get really good until later levels. I think that adding flavor should really make this class better, and funner to play. --Green Dragon 11:20, 13 June 2007 (MDT)

Cool idea. I have Drow of the Underdark and Underdark, so I will use that for ideas (some of the feats or prestige classes could help. How balanced is it anyway? 6/10? 7/10? 8/10? I would love it to become a nine- or a ten- out of ten eventually, and I would like to know how close I am to this aim. Also, I have a lot of books on spiders, so I will cruise that for ideas. Thanks! I will add background, but I want to finish the mechanics first. I will have to consider how the spiders become intelligent as well (otherwise it makes no sense). Speaking of monstrous spiders, how are they created? It is impossible for spiders that size to live in our atmosphere (because of their book-lungs), so how DO they exist? Any ideas? Sam Kay 10:42, 16 June 2007 (MDT)

I do not have time to rate it right now (or anytime soon as I am going away for about a month to Southern Utah) so you might want to ask someone else. --Green Dragon 18:13, 16 June 2007 (MDT)

Okay. Can anyone give me an idea of how balanced this is now, please? There are now a lot more class features (related to spiders) now. They aren't the final class features: I put as many spider related class features into the table so I would have some options of what to keep and what to remove. I would appreciate it if anybody could suggest to me what I should keep and what I should remove. Don't put any ratings in the "balance" box yet, just give me an idea how balanced it is. I have thought up an interesting background for this class that should make it very interesting, I will put it in now. Feel free to tell me what you think. It ties in to the expulsion of the drow. Sam Kay 01:26, 17 June 2007 (MDT)

The mount it too much. It progresses at the same rate as the character. Only familiars do that, and they have the limitation their HD-based attributes are determined by their master (1/2 hps, master's ranks in skills, master's base saves, and master's BAB), except feats which they don't gain any. Full BAB classes typically have the slowest animal companions/special mounts/etc. The paladin's special mount's progression slows down to 2 HD per five paladin levels. The ranger's animal companion progresses at 2 HD per 6 ranger levels, and the blackguard's fiendish companion progresses at 2 HD per 3 character levels, but it doesn't start advancing until 11th (character) level.

Though it has little to do with balance, I question the drow theme (at least among the spider queen worshiping drow). Spiders are sacred to drow, and are not considered as subservient beasts. Drow priestess are like extremist animal rights activists when it comes to spiders. Using a spider as a mount would be an offense punishable by death (a very slow death).

Grey dwarves, however, used to ride giant spiders under 2E, though they've seemed to move away from that theme in 3E. —Sledged (talk) 10:28, 17 June 2007 (MDT)

Thanks for th ballance thing (I was wondering about the spider myself... However Drow DO NOT see Spider Riding as heresy or anything. It is in Drow of the Underdark (they often search for Widow-maker monstrous spiders as mounts because they are fierce but easy to train). Their priestesses often ride spiders into battle, actually, it is a feat. However they see them as little more than a human sees a horse (a sacred horse, at that), and thay are not mentally or physically linked to their spider any more than a human to their (sacred) horse, but a Spider Rider is. Sam Kay 01:37, 18 June 2007 (MDT)

Didn't know that, I'll have to get my hands on a copy.

One thing I noticed is that there is a size issue with the spider mount. For a Medium spider rider, the monstrous spider won't serve as a mount until 5th level when it become Large. —Sledged (talk) 12:46, 18 June 2007 (MDT)

I know. I will have to give the Spide Rider enough 1st-4th level class features to get it going. It gives an interesting roleplay situation, training your Spider as it grows up though. If I ever take this class, I would'nt miss that for the world. I might get bored If I had not got other class features though. Sam Kay 08:58, 19 June 2007 (MDT)

I think I have now sorted the Wikifacation, internal links, spelling etc. Could someone check for me? I ran it through a US spellchecker, and have checked all the links, but I am not sure wheter or not to remove the Wikifacation Need thing. I have also added a complete class description, and tweaked the rules. I think it is now playable, and a class viable option. But I am not entirely sure. Could you now give this class a rating please, so that I know how close I am to my goal (9/10 or 10/10 rating, if possible). Thanks for your (and everyones) help! Sam Kay 10:41, 19 June 2007 (MDT)

Dang, looks like I turned my back for too long. The new class looks great. I'll look it over a little more, compare it to other classes, and see if I can rate it.

Table

Anyone know why this table is so messed up? --Green Dragon 23:11, 12 February 2007 (MST)

because 'rowspan="2"'. The table's fixed now. (Though the class as a whole needs work.) —Sledged (talk) 11:33, 13 February 2007 (MST)

Thanks. Also, I agree this class is not well made and makes D&D Wiki look worse. --Green Dragon 22:35, 13 February 2007 (MST)

The text only seems to go halfway across the page. I may have screwed something up in the table when I was making my edits. Can someone take a look and see if they can fix it? Thanks, and sorry for the mistake. --Martonimos 20:33, 19 April 2007 (MDT)

Fixed. You forgot to end that table, that was all (actually Sledged fixed that problem). --Green Dragon 22:00, 19 April 2007 (MDT)

What the heck?

Isn't a spider rider from that weird tv show? --Pig Knight 23:21, 27 April 2007

What TV show are you thinking of? --Green Dragon 20:32, 30 April 2007 (MDT)

I've never heard of a spider rider before. Are you sure you are not getting confused with spider man? Sam Kay 11:24, 12 June 2007 (MDT)

I know they are in Warhammer (the miniature game), but I've never seen them elsewhere. Spiders are creepy, and riding them is creepier. --Aarnott 08:20, 19 June 2007 (MDT)

Oh, yeah, I remember now! they are Forest Goblin Spider Riders- the only simularity to this class being that they ride spiders. I think I might have some... I forgot about them completly! Sam Kay 08:54, 19 June 2007 (MDT)

How is Spider Riding creepy? And since when have Spiders been Creepy? Spiders are cool! I love Spiders. If it where possible to be a Spider Rider, I would be the first to learn how! Sam Kay 09:30, 19 June 2007 (MDT)

Have you ever seen a close up shot of a spider? Not the nicest looking creature... They are fascinating, but also creepy (larger ones at least). --Aarnott 01:13, 24 June 2007 (MDT)

Yeah, tons of 'em! Brilliant creatures spiders. "Not the nicest looking creature..."? Thats where you are only partially right. Ever seen a close-up face shot of a jumping spider? They are cute, them! Sam Kay 11:48, 24 June 2007 (MDT)

Removal?

May I ask why this article was removed improperly? — Blue Dragon (talk) 15:00, 19 May 2007 (MDT)

IP address being dumb...? --Green Dragon 23:36, 21 May 2007 (MDT)

Good Work, Sam

Hello. Looking over your work it seems to be a lot more balanced then the one that was on here originally especially since you planned on using it in my campaign. Well done Sam. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ShadowyFigure (talk • contribs) 2007-06-18 11:11:15. Please sign your posts.

I know. I am better at writing Clases than the origional writer! Sam Kay 08:55, 19 June 2007 (MDT)

Monstrous Spider Existance Issues

Scientifically, DnD monstrous Spiders are impossible: a spider that size would be unable to breath (because of a spider's book-lungs). Anyone know the official reason of how they exist? Please let me know if you do... Thanks! Sam Kay 10:48, 19 June 2007 (MDT)

Can you explain why a 16-year-old human has more skill points than a elf 7 times his age?

Can you explain why an ogre is better skilled in combat (i.e. a higher BAB) than an elf simply because it's bigger?

Can you explain why bees fly when scientifically they shouldn't be able to?

Can you scientifically explain magic or psionics?

Don't over think it. It's a fantasy setting. Everything doesn't have to have an explanation. —Sledged (talk) 21:56, 22 June 2007 (MDT)

Elves take longer to learn things than humans. Humans are very adaptable. Sam Kay 02:09, 23 June 2007 (MDT)

That explanation breaks down at the point where elves gain XP at the same rate as humans. Personally, my favorite explanation was when someone answered "What? Didn't you know everything when you were a teenager?" —Sledged (talk) 13:22, 25 June 2007 (MDT)

Might makes right. Sam Kay 02:09, 23 June 2007 (MDT)

Irrelevant. Neither might nor right equate to skill or prowess. —Sledged (talk) 13:22, 25 June 2007 (MDT)

There is a scientific explanation to how bees fly; its to do with how fast they beat their wings.

You don't need a scientific reason for magic: its energy of some kind. Psionics is the power of the mind (or the warp, depending on who you believe). Magic is a reason in its own right. Sam Kay 02:09, 23 June 2007 (MDT)

You've said what psionics is, but you that doesn't explain how or why it works, and the explanation for magic circular. You can easily apply the same logic to monstrous spiders: They exist simply because they do. —Sledged (talk) 13:22, 25 June 2007 (MDT)

You don't need a scientific explanation for everything. Just a reason. Are Monstrous Spiders magically created, or did Lolth do it? Thats all I want to know. Sam Kay 02:09, 23 June 2007 (MDT)

The problem is that the answer to that question is arbitrarily decided by the DM. If Lolth exists in the DM's game world, then she may be responsible for them. If you strictly by the SRD or otherwise play in world where Lolth has never existed, then she didn't make them. To answer your original question "Anyone know the official reason of how they exist?" I doubt anyone knows the official reason, because WotC hasn't published anything to explain them (at least not that I've seen). You're looking for a clear definitive answer where none exists. It's completely open to interpretation, so just go with the explanation you like the best. —Sledged (talk) 13:22, 25 June 2007 (MDT)

“

The team found that bees flap their wings much faster than similarly sized insects and use short, choppy wing strokes to generate the required power. When loaded down with pollen, bees increase the arc of their wing strokes rather than speeding up the number of beats.

”

See!

Can you rate this class out of 10 please, so I can improve it. I would like to improve and finalize it, but I can't until I know what rating it is. Also, have I sorted the Wikification yet? Thanks!Sam Kay 02:16, 23 June 2007 (MDT)

There's still a few issues with the game mechanics before I'll rate it (otherwise I'll give a 5 at most):

• Mount's BAB: A creature's BAB should always be a function of its HD, and should never exceed its HD.
• Mount's skills: Skill are also a function of HD, and a creature should only gain points and ranks when its HD increases. Additionally, monstrous spiders don't have Int scores, and therefore don't gain feats or skill points (though they can have bonus feats and racial skill bonuses).
• Table: Monstrous Spider Adjustments by Size has odd ability score adjustments. Odd ability score adjustments should always be avoided.

As far as wikifying the page, here are a few guidelines to let you know if you're headed in the right direction. —Sledged (talk) 13:22, 25 June 2007 (MDT)

As a further comment, if you want it to gain skills and feats, I don't see why it wouldn't be fair to give it an intelligence score. Maybe make it a Magical Beast and an intelligence of 3? If you want it to have a better chance of hitting, you can always give it a bonus to attack rolls (instead of BAB). I would probably base the progression of the spider as either a Paladin's mount or a Druid's animal companion. --Aarnott 13:55, 25 June 2007 (MDT)

Sorted. I have looked, and I think it is wikified. Also, as for bonus to attack rolls, what do you suggest? And the spider did have an intelligence score (depending on the rider), it is in "Unbreakable Spider Bond", I just forgot to put a reminder in the Spider Mount section. I have now. Is it ready for a rating yet? I would rate it, but it would be unfair for me to rate a class I develouped. Sam Kay 04:49, 26 June 2007 (MDT)

I don't think that it is necessary to have a section on the table for Base Attack Bonus. Instead I would point to the construction rules for Magical Beast Type. Basically I think there are 2 ways I would go about making the spider. Either it is a Magical Beast that gains spider-like abilities OR it is a giant spider as found in the SRD that grows over time, is a Magical Beast, and gains bonus feats. I wouldn't have extra exceptions to rules where possible. I'd also increase the size more slowly, but also allow the increase to eventually be Gargantuan. I'd prefer the second way of building the spider. Here is how I would have the block describing the spiders:

Monstrous Spider Mount

Table: The Monstrous Spider Mount

Rider's Level	Size	Natural Armor Bonus	Attack Bonus	Str/Dex Bonus	Special
1st	T	+0	+1	+1	Monstrous Spider Traits, Bonus Feat
2nd	T	+0	+1	+2	Bonus Feat
3rd	S	+1	+2	+2
4th	S	+1	+2	+2	Fast +10ft, Bonus Feat
5th	M	+2	+3	+3
6th	M	+2	+3	+3	Bonus Feat
7th	M	+3	+4	+3
8th	M	+3	+4	+4	Fast +20ft, Bonus Feat
9th	L	+4	+5	+4
10th	L	+4	+5	+4
11th	L	+5	+6	+5	Bonus Feat
12th	L	+5	+6	+5	Fast +30ft
13th	L	+6	+7	+5
14th	L	+6	+7	+6	Bonus Feat
15th	H	+7	+8	+6
16th	H	+7	+8	+6	Fast +40ft
17th	H	+8	+9	+7	Bonus Feat
18th	H	+8	+9	+7
19th	H	+9	+10	+7
20th	G	+9	+10	+8	Fast +50ft, Bonus Feat

Monstrous Spider mounts take the statistics of Monstrous Spiders, but they are instead Magical Beasts with the Vermin subtype. This means their Hit Dice are d10s, their Base Attack Bonus is equal to their Hit Dice, their base Reflex save is the same as their base Fortitude save, and they have an intelligence score of 3 (which means they lose the mindless trait and gain Skill Points and feats as normal).

At first level the Spider Rider must decide whether his spider is a Hunter or Web Spinner (as described in the Monstrous Spider statistics).

I may have made the spiders too powerful later on, but I think that would be the best approach to make them balanced. I think Gargantuan at level 20 also makes up for the lack of powerful 20th level ability for this class. I would suggest making a special ability for the spider that it gains at Large size (or maybe Huge) that will allow it to shrink size categories X/day. I'll be gone starting tonight for my Wedding (Saturday) and Honeymoon next week, so I'll discuss my ideas further when I get back :). --Aarnott 14:51, 4 July 2007 (MDT)

I have made some of the suggested changes, but I have only changed the Size Increases by a little, otherwise you would have to wait until 9th level to actually ride the spider (something one or two people have been complaining about), and I have prevented the Spider becoming gargantuan (it seems abit big to me), but I will give the Rider a nice ability at twentieth level to rectify the lack of 2oth level abilities for the class. Please continue to suggest ideas to me though, it has been very helpful. Thanks! Sam Kay 10:14, 5 July 2007 (MDT)

This looks really good. One question why do they get bonus feats? It just seems that bonus feats are more for fillers where abbility could be placed. Great class the whole Religous Spider Riding Warrior is really cool just needs a cool 20th level abbility and it would be good to go.

I actually threw the bonus feats there as filler when I was suggesting improvements. If you have any ideas feel free to suggest them, I know Sam Kay would appreciate it. Reconsidering, I would give the spider defensive abilities such as Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Mettle, etc. It really sucks for it to die! --Aarnott 14:25, 17 July 2007 (MDT)

Thanks for that. I have added some dodge abilities etc, but the bonus feats you are alowed do give you more spidery abilities though. So, whad ideas do you have, Aarnott? Do you think the Specific Monstrous Spider thing is ballanced. There is a link to it on the page. Oh, why did you replace attack bonus with base attack bonus? is that supposed to be the Spider's base attack bonus or a seperate bonus that adds to its attacks? If so, what type of bonus is it suposed to be (morale, luck etc.)? Thanks for your help! Sam Kay 07:47, 18 July 2007 (MDT)

I haven't seen the Specific Monstrous Spider thing on your page yet, but I'll take a look after this :). I put attack bonus there because the number of HD of a spider tell you its base attack bonus (and you want your spider to be able to hit). The animal creature type will have the same base attack bonus progression as a cleric (3/4). I was thinking of having the attack bonus un-typed, but you could make it a divine/profane bonus, an insight bonus (most likely), a luck bonus, or even an enhancement bonus (least likely). An un-typed bonus stacks with everything. The biggest thing this class needs right now is a good level 20 ability. I think all classes should have some sort of bonus for sticking it out to level 20 without getting a prestige class along the way. --Aarnott 08:04, 18 July 2007 (MDT)

Good point. I will look at some other classes to see what other twentieth level abilities are like. I would like to point out that, as a magical beast (vermin) the spider gets a good attack bonus (but that would still be only half that of the rider) but I do not think that the bonuses are too big, so I will leave them as they are. Thanks! Sam Kay 12:24, 18 July 2007 (MDT)

Is the one I just put in okay, or is it too weak or too strong? Sam Kay 12:36, 18 July 2007 (MDT)

Too weak. But now that you put that there... Planar web should really be based on either half the spider rider's level or equal to the spider rider's level in the first place. All web gains with increased caster level is increased range and duration, so it wouldn't be overpowered to do that. Not sure what to suggest though... --Aarnott 12:54, 18 July 2007 (MDT)

Reallt too weak. What the point of going that far when you could do it with 10 levels paladin and 10 sorcerer then just take a spider dm permited. Good try though. 88.110.250.94 13:47, 18 July 2007 (MDT)

That better? Oh, is the Specific Monstrous Spider thing ballanced? I am not to sure about that jumping spider (Salticidae). Thanks for your help. Sam Kay 13:58, 18 July 2007 (MDT)

Look at the talk page for it -- I made some comments. And it does look better. The swarm ability should also probably have a direct relation to the Spider Rider level. I like the new 20th level ability -- I'd make them fiendish though. --Aarnott 14:15, 18 July 2007 (MDT)

That better? Sam Kay 03:50, 19 July 2007 (MDT)

Flavor

Sam, you've changed the spider rider from a generic combat class into a holy or unholy warrior of a spider goddess. The class's abilities all look great, and I'd say they're about on balance with the paladin or ranger, thanks to the spell-like abilities and the bonus feats (I'm not sure exactly how much to rate it, though). But I'd suggest a few changes to fit the new flavor of the class.

Adding Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill and changing the alignment requirements to fit what you say about chaotic good or chaotic evil (maybe the CN riders could belong to a third goddess, one who wishes to mediate and end the conflict peacefully? Just throwing out ideas here) are obvious changes to me. Although anyone actually playing a Rider would rarely come across the enemy's riders (depending on the DM, of course), if they really do seek to destroy/convert the other side, maybe some anti-spider abilities would help; something like "turn evil spiders". But like I said, these abilities would rarely come into play and may be too inane to include at all.

I still don't like the idea of a "spider rider" that can't actually ride his spider until fifth level, but the way you've put it here is so that you raise it from infancy. While that's certainly cool, we should make sure that the spider will actually be useful in those early levels; maybe give it a bonus trick or something? It's hard to tell how it'll work without actually playing as one.

Well, those are my ideas. I know I'm not very good at this, but I just ask that you take them into consideration. --Martonimos 15:21, 23 June 2007 (MDT)

Thanks! I'm glad you like the class and think its ballanced. I have acted on your ideas, see if you like the changes. I am pretty cirtain it will be useful at lower levels though, but th class features of the Rider should help if it is not. If you are not sure what to rate it then I will see if I can get someone else to rate it. Thanks! Sam Kay 10:17, 24 June 2007 (MDT)

Wow, that is cool. You definitely have a better grasp o both creative and mechanical aspects of this class than I did, so I'm glad you took it over. MY only suggestion would be to add a line to the turn/rebuke spiderkind entry that specifies "the spider rider's own mount is immune to being either turned or rebuked by the rider, but can be turned or rebuked by other spider riders" or something similar. I just think it would be pretty stupid to turn an enemy spider only to find your own spider fleeing from you.

Thanks! I'm glad you like it. I have made some adjustments, see if you like them!!! Sam Kay 11:06, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

Proposed Changes

I know you wanted me to take a good look at this class before you finish it, so I did. Here are some changes I think need to be happen before you finish the class.

• There is an ability called Spider Climb, which has no descriptive text below
• Summon swarm is a 2nd level spell. The spider rider should not get it until 3rd level (shouldn't be faster access than a dedicated caster).
• The turning rules are somewhat confusing. I would have them be as a cleric of three levels lower. The text would read something like: "Spider riders may turn/rebuke spiders as a Cleric would turn/rebuke Undead. Treat the spider rider as a cleric of three levels lower than her spider rider levels for this purpose. Evil spider riders rebuke spiders and neutral and good spider riders turn spiders. Your monstrous spider companion is unaffected by your turn/rebuke attempts, and receives a +X bonus against enemy spider rider turning/rebuking attempts". I would also add Commanding/Destroying at some higher level. On that note however, it might be a good idea to have all spider riders rebuke spiders. Turning Undead scares them, whereas rebuking Undead makes them go in awe of your power. The same could be applied to spiders (which would allow you to command them in the end).
• I would add a Summon Spider (Large) 1/day around level 10 (either 9, 10, or 11). Those levels seem somewhat boring.
• Spider jump should come sooner (level 12 or so) and have a maximum distance per jump, but a larger pool so that multiple jumps at max distance can be made. I would make the max distance start at 40 ft. and max out at 100 ft. and I would have the maximum jumps per day start at 80 ft. and end at 400ft. (something like that).
• I wouldn't have the spider's stats have to be rolled, they should be able to use the Elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8) dumping the 10 and 8 for the rider's int and cha.
• The rider and spider should have Share Spell (like a familliar).
• For Ex Spider riders: atonement should be done as the spell. The spider should be able to be resurrected through some form of ritual (contacting the god is extreme). Players shouldn't have to lose most of what their character can do just because of a string of bad luck.
• You might want to add balance and tumble as class skills

--Aarnott 11:48, 20 July 2007 (MDT)

Well, I have done all but one of those things. I did not change the atoning for the EX-Rider thing, as its more of an apology than a prayer of atonement (but I changed the termanology). Is it still as balanced as it was? I think it is more powerful now. Could you please give me a rating out of 10 so I can be sure? Thanks for your help! Sam Kay 13:59, 20 July 2007 (MDT)

Awesome new abilities! They fill the dead levels that were there, and also give a nice punch the class needed at the end (much like the Scout from Complete Adventurer has. I'd limit the poison touch to 3/day however (otherwise it could be abusive) and allow the save DC to use the spider rider's ability modifier. I'll rate this likely on Monday -- off for the weekend to the beach. --Aarnott 14:08, 20 July 2007 (MDT)