Talk:Spellfused (5e Class)

Hello everyone, Holic here.

I made this because I love breaking the rules, so sue me.

No seriously, I actually want to make this balanced and playable alongside other classes, so help me !

... please ?

Haha ! Ok, so I'm really hesitating between keeping and removing either Cantrips or/and the Fighting Stances.

Since Cantrips, well, what's the point of them when you can cast other spells without spell slots ?

And Fighting stances because I don't like to borrow from other classes.

However, this is meant as a hybrid caster-fighter, so some kind of weapon ability is needed.

As you'll notice, it is meant to be a very flexible class that adapts well to any background and any combat style. It is also very customizable as you level up instead of being customized at the beginning and then just roll with it all in a straight line.

I do want to keep that.

What do you people think ? (please just tell me to remove cantrips, I don't know why I'm hesitating!)

Thanks to all who participate ! --Holic (talk) 16:08, 4 December 2017 (MST)

Page Review

Hello Holic, and welcome to the wiki! I want to let you know that I really like the idea of this class, and it reminds me a lot of 3.5's rendition of the warlock. It's very interesting to see a class that casts only a few select spells, but casts them at will, an unlimited number of times. Having said that, though, there are a few things about the class that I take issue with and could probably use tweaking.

• I notice that they have proficiency in both Constitution and Wisdom saving throws, both common saving throws. No first-party class grants both saving throws; they always grant one common save (dex, con, wis) and one uncommon save (str, int, cha). I would recommend changing this class' Wisdom save proficiency with Intelligence or Charisma, as several effects that in 3.5 required a will saving throw now instead require an Intelligence or Charisma saving throw.
• If this is meant to be a class focused heavily on spellcasting, I don't think it makes a ton of sense for it to have proficiency with all martial weapons.
• I'm not entirely sure what Bindings of the Past and Future are supposed to do. By an "ability", do you mean a skill?
• The spell progression feels a bit weird. I feel like 3rd level is still too early to get an at-will 1st-level spell, and you don't get a second 1st-level spell until 11th level? I would recommend changing this to two or even three cantrips at 1st level to give a bit more versatility, another cantrip at 3rd level, and not actually get a 1st-level spell until 5th level, getting their second at 6th level, getting a 2nd-level spell at 7th level, and so forth.
• Speaking of at-will spells, there is potential for abuse if as one of your spells you choose a spell like cure wounds. Since you can cast your Spellfused spells at will, you can cast Cure Wounds several times on each of your allies between battles until you're all at full health, which breaks hit die economy. Perhaps consider not allowing characters to choose spells that restore hit points?
• Soul Focus' last two bullet points aren't making a ton of sense to me. What triggers the reaction that you use to cast the spell that normally takes a bonus action? What purpose would it serve to cast, say, counterspell as a bonus action when you don't have a spell to counter?
• Soul Remnant's Remanence has the same problem that Bindings have.
• Gaining at-will plane shift is very powerful as a capstone, since it can be used as a very potent save-or-die effect. This may be considered too powerful; perhaps consider allowing it to be cast only on willing creatures?
• Gaining Animal Handling and Insight proficiency upon multiclassing into Spellfused seems rather nonsensical.

Overall, this still needs some polishing, but it's a really cool concept that has a lot of potential. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎ . . 19:59, 4 December 2017 (MST)

Reply to Geodude

First of all, thanks a lot !!! This is the first serious/structured feedback I've had since I started creating stuff on the Wiki !

Okay, now the nitty-gritty stuff point by point :)

• Starting saving throw proficiencies are a bit on purpose since at level 2, Bindings of the Past gives a saving throw proficiency in the player's choice of STR, DEX, INT, CHA (I'll correct my wording, thanks). This is to allow for more customizability by the players who might want to go more Str or Dex warrior for example.
• Spellcasting & Combat : The idea is to make a hybrid : A fighter that can cast spells of low level and variety but without spell slot limitations, as if they were all racial attributes or special blessings. The extremely low variety of spells kind of makes me think that this would be a difficult class to play if it did not have access to some measure of weapon combat ability. Hence the martial weapons proficiency. However, this could be changed for additional combat-oriented skills within the class evolution... What do you think ? I'd also like your thoughts on the "Fighting Style" part and whether or not to replace it with something else.
• Lvl 2 : Answered at 1st point :) I'll change the wording to saving throw.
• Spell Level up : I totally agree, I want to smooth out the level up curve as much as possible, and it is rather hard with this particular class, since a new spell means a ton of additional power ! Using Cantrips to smooth out the beginning seems a good idea, I'll try that ! Thanks !
• Hit Point restore : fair point, okay, got it. I have a question : would being limited to casting healing spells up to proficiency bonus times per day be ok ?
• Soul Focus : True, the last 2 points don't necessarily make sense with all the spells, especially for reactions... But I kind of want to leave the possibility open ? I don't know, I feel the possibility might inspire some fun crazy new thing in the game. Like casting hellish rebuke on your turn as a bonus action and whenever you get hit. Counterspell as a bonus action could be used to counter another counterspell against a spell you cast with your action. Convoluted I know, but finding convoluted crazy stuff like that is part of the fun of D&D for me. Still, I agree with you so... How about we leave it for now unless we find a way it can be abused that's bad for the game ? Not working with everything seems not enough a reason to remove it ? What do you think ?
• Soul Remnant : Done ! :)
• Lvl 20 Planeshift : Aha ! ... yes, I think so too... But I love the Idea of it !!!! ... I'll change it to willing creatures like you said because I know you're right.
• Multiclassing : How about Arcana and Insight ?

Thank you very much for the advice ! I hope to have another feedback ^^ ! --Holic (talk) 04:26, 5 December 2017 (MST)

Re

Thank you very much for being receptive to feedback. I do have some more:

• I feel like the rate at which saving throw proficiencies are gained is too fast. Consider that, typically, you can't get a third saving throw proficiency until 4th level (with the Resilient feat), and if you're not playing with feats, the only way (to my knowledge) to gain more than two saving throw proficiencies is to be a 14th-level monk. I haven't playtested this class so you may have more of an idea of how balanced the additional proficiencies are, but my first thought is that this is too powerful at such a low level.
• Okay, I think I now understand your intention to make this a sort of "gish" class. Definitely a cool concept, and taking that into consideration, I don't think the Fighting Style feature needs to be changed at all :)
• The spell progression does seem a lot better now, though I would have liked to see the class keep its 10th-level cantrip, since first-party spellcasters tend to gain more cantrips as they level.
• I'm afraid putting a limit on the number of times per day you can cast healing spells would defeat the class' purpose of casting a few select spells an unlimited number of times. The ban would be on specifically spells that restore hit points; spells that grant temporary hit points like false life or heroism would still be able to be cast infinitely.
• I'm sorry, I'm afraid I still don't understand your explanation of Soul Focus. If you're casting hellish rebuke as a bonus action, what exactly are you rebuking? If you cast counterspell as a bonus action, what exactly are you countering. Note that you can already cast these spells during your turn in reaction to being attacked or a spell having been cast.
• With regards to multiclassing, what I found strange was that the class grants any skill proficiencies at all. A single-classed spellfused has only two skill proficiencies from their class, and the only first-party classes that grant skill proficiencies upon multiclassing into them are the classes that grant three or more proficiencies. I was thinking that multiclassing into the spellfused class should grant proficiency with simple and martial weapons and light and medium armor, following the example of first-party classes like the ranger.

— Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email)‎ . . 10:16, 5 December 2017 (MST)

Re-re

• ST Proficiencies : Yep, agreed. I changed it to skill proficiency at level 2, but it kind of makes for a lot of skill gains with the triple Soul Memories and the Soul Remnant Archetype's Recall... Any suggestions ?
• Class Concept : Cool ! And thanks :) .
• Cantrips : Okay, kept the lvl 10 Cantrip.
• Life Restore Spells : Okay, I figured so as well.
• Soul Focus : Hmm... It might be too vague and un-useful an idea. Since bonus actions and reactions are limited in a turn (usually to one each unless Action surge or something else comes into play), the idea was to give options for some spells to be used differently. I removed it for now, we'll see later if we find a reason to put it back. The flexibility I imagined might need a total rework or at least re-wording of all concerned spells, so let's not go there. ^^'
• Multiclassing : I admit I had not given much thought about multiclassing... ^^' It's done.

Extra : Changed a few wordings like the sentence in the headband note. As for the "Missing ability, skill references and the likes." I'd love to fix it, but I'm afraid I'm too new to know how... I imagine it's giving links in the {{... format ? But I don't know all the codes that lead to the right pages. I did what I could. --Holic (talk) 09:36, 6 December 2017 (MST)

• Back to the starting saving throw proficiencies, I still think WIS CON is more in line with the concept, but I guess it would be WIS CHA if I had to follow the first-party class rules... what do you think ? Is it a must to do as you advised in your first post ?

Latest Update

• Took your suggestion to make it Wis & Cha saving throws as a base.

Hoping someone will give me more guidance on how to complete this class and make something really good out of it.

--Holic (talk) 14:26, 18 December 2017 (MST)

Removed the headers since they no longer apply as far as I can tell.

--Holic (talk) 10:15, 29 December 2017 (MST)

Thanks to whoever posted the Wikify edit banner, I checked everything I could. ^^

--Holic (talk) 12:01, 30 December 2017 (MST)

Added the Broken Soul Archetype, please give me some constructive comments on this !

--Holic (talk) 18:13, 30 December 2017 (MST)

Why does this class have at will spellcasting?

The broken soul subclass's spell fusion feature allows you to cast far too high level spells at will(Hello infinite clone, wish, and meteor swarm spells).

On another note, any kind of at will spellcasting is extremely broken, unless it is on relatively mundane spells like disguise self. For example, you can have a permanent +5 to AC as long as you use your reaction to cast the shield spell. I don't see any reason not to just take the 5 levels in this class then multiclass into a fighter or some other martial class and have a permanent +5 AC, besides all the other spells that are overpowered when cast at will.

There are a numerous other spells that are overpowered/broken when cast at will as well. The hellish rebuke, misty step, invisibility(permeant inv is a legendary item), counterspell(you can attempt to cancel every spell cast for free), banishment, dimension door, polymorph(I mean, never taking damage sounds nice), greater invisibility(casting spells while forever invisible) spells are all extremely powerful and/or broken, and I am probably not even listing all the broken ones.

If anything, it will be much more balanced to only allow your spells to be cast a number of times equal to half your proficiency bonus rounded up, and make them regained after you finish a long rest. Plus, you could then allow the class to take healing spells.--Blobby383b (talk) 15:45, 13 January 2018 (MST)

Reply to above

Thanks for your comment !

Broken Soul : I think you're right, 1 minute of a level 5+ spell you can cast once each turn is a bit too much. So I changed it to lasting until the end of your next turn after you trigger it. Fused Spells sacrificed come back when effect ends.

Note that Fused Spells are not exactly free action "at will" spells, they do not consume spell slots or components, but still require a casting time. I don't want any "infinite" spells in a single round of course.

So it's all a question of tactics and knowing what to cast when, in what order. Also remember that there are, even at high level, very few spells available to you for casting.

So yes, it can be powerful, but what are you going to do casting Dimension door on each of your turns ? In the end, it is a class that can be very dependant on allies or a powerful solo dps, but does not have the latitude to do half measures and balanced builds.

So let's see, At level 20, you have

Level 1 spell x2 Level 2 spell x2 Level 3 spell x2 Level 4 spell x1

So with those limited spells, albeit usable as many times as you have per day, you have to choose carefully and can't have everything. Some spells might be more useful than others but will remove other options.

A thing to note is that you can only cast base versions of spells, no casting of fireballs at 4th level, only 3rd. Still very good though not usable in small spaces.

Also note that concentration spells still limit you in having only one at a time.

With that in mind, here's a few thoughts on the spells you mentioned :

shield, a reaction, so only good once per turn if you get attacked. I don't see how you imagined it could stay "on" forever... hellish rebuke, well, yes, but as someone pointed out to me previously, you have to rebuke something, so locking one of your rare spells for a backlash effect is a tactical choice, good for someone who intends to be in melee a lot for example. misty step, 2nd level, is a very good choice, especially as a Bonus Action, but still a placement/tactical use thing. invisibility, true, but you're not a rogue so no sneak attack. counterspell, 3rd level, it still uses your reaction and is only useful once per round if magic flies around. note that this is one of your 3 most powerful spells banishment, 4th level, an interesting choice for your one and only 4th level spell, of course, there is still the save, it takes a whole turn to cast, and your concentration can break before the 1 minute is up and the creature returns (alive or not depends on where you sent it and what type of creature). dimension door, a utility 4th level ? why not, you will always have a way out and can take 1 person with you but that's it. Really depends on what strategy you're going for there, I think most people will want a damaging 4th level spell. polymorph, now that's a good choice for your most powerful spell ! Take into account it's concentration and will limit you if you have any other concentration spells. greater invisibility,quite powerful, but lasts 1 minute, so you have to constantly refresh it. Also concentration, but a good choice if you want to be the sneaky type. Do not that for this, just as for the previous two 4th levels, you get this at level 17... The level at which you usually have one or two legendary magic items equipped... Still consider this OP ? :)

Basically, the spells you take will define you as a character.

Overall, I don't really see anything too OP in this but I might be wrong or there might be various opinions.

I do admit that multiclassing might break the class as it can make it too powerful in some ways. I personally don't play with multiclassing, which is why I did not give that aspect much thought.

I would greatly appreciate some play test on this to figure out what is ok and what really needs revising.

Thanks a lot for your edit Blobby383b and helping fix the Broken Soul's level 9 ability ! :)

--Holic (talk) 14:06, 15 February 2018 (MST)

Blobby383b's Post

The class also gets a 1st level spell the same time you get extra attack, which is not ok balance wise as well. Looking at the spells some more, some aren't broken and while others are still very much broken.

• shield lasts until the start of your turn. It is in fact a permanent +5 AC if you use your reaction. It is far too strong.
• hellish rebuke is almost always a good choice as it allows you to always you to have a ranged reaction. There are a few other good options but besides shield this should be your bread and butter. It is strong through and shouldn't be an option at 5th level.
• misty step is fine, it is like taking the Dash action as a bonus action without provoking opportunity attacks (with some other benefits)
• enhance ability oh god how did I miss this spell. This spell is the epitome of all will spellcasting being broken. This allows you to give any PC in your party advantage on every skill check they ever make when near you.
• mirror image basically allows you to block even more damage.
• invisibility this provides you with too much for a at will 2nd level spell.
• counterspell is situationally broken. In most cases, other spellcasters can use this just as frequently as you and at higher levels. Overall this may or may not be too powerful.
• animate dead this can provide you with far far too many zombies that you can keep forever
• Honorable mentions go to 3rd level spells that deal damage
• banishment is like counterspell, in that it situationally may be too powerful. The spell by itself may not be too powerful, but you may be able to cast this spell too many times during a fight to isolate a certain creature. Again this may or may not be too powerful.
• dimension door ends up being a better version of misty step. A much much better version of misty step. This spell by itself can effectively allow you to travel huge swaths of land and allows you to flee any fight. No creature can match the speed of you and your ally's retreat and maneuverability.
• polymorph I don't know what to say besides freely casting this spell is overpowered. The spell provides a huge amount of utility(flying, digging, fighting, turning foes into kittens, ect.), you can transform into creature's with very powerful attacks, and you can absorb damage by using the spell.
• greater invisibility this spell's power level depends entirely on the spells you took at lower levels. If you took a 3rd level damaging spell this is overpowered. Otherwise this is just a good spell.

As I said earlier, there are other spells that are broken or too powerful when cast at will as shown by the inclusion of several more spells to the list. Also, legendary items normally shouldn't be gotten before 17th level according to the DMG.--Blobby383b (talk) 17:52, 15 February 2018 (MST)

Response

Wow. Ok. Yeah. You're right.

Dam*it, I realise now with a bit more experience that the class (which I have not yet playtested), is really too OP.

I made a few modifications such as

-A limit for pluri-cast options spells such as Enhance Ability so only one version can be chosen as a fused spell. (ex : Enhance Ability:Strength)

-A 1/day limit on the Broken Soul's lvl 9 ability so it's a little less... broken. ;)

-Changed saving throw proficiencies to a common and uncommon pair (instead of con and wis, two common) of wis and cha.

-Nerfed the fused spells and the levels you get them at so now only 2 lvl1 at lvl 6 and 13, 2 lvl2 at level 11 and 15, 1 lvl3 at lvl17. No more lvl4 spell *sniff* ...

I do imagine this class being played in home-brew games with close supervision from the DM who might choose to forbid certain spells according to the campaign style they are running.

I agree with you that "Shield" for example might be too strong. However, I think the spells that are "situationally broken" as you mentioned are fine to keep as a possibility.

I think it's ok to make characters that are OP in some situations and maybe useless in others.

Oh, and thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate your help in fine-tunning this class which is probalbly not made for 5e but which I still think would be awesome to make and play ! ^^

Thanks again Blobby383 and I hope to hear/read some more comments of yours in the future.

--Holic (talk) 06:17, 18 April 2018 (MDT)

Re

Don't worry about it, the class is just overpowered when you pick certain spells. I do have two suggestions that I feel addresses two problems the class has

• 1. Create a custom spell list, add spells that aren't broken, and only allow the spellfused to learn spells from that spell list
• 2. Even though the class does have huge power spikes at certain levels(when you learn at will spells), there is a lot of levels were the class is in fact too weak(before 5th/6th and between 6th and 11th level). Based on this, how does allowing the class to learn "Lesser Fused Spells" at around these levels sound? These spells would likely not be at will, but would be regained on a short rest.

Either way, once these issues are ironed out, I will look at reviewing the class's features themselves and giving feedback on what else could be improved.--Blobby383b (talk) 21:41, 18 April 2018 (MDT)

Re2

1) yeah, I know this is what would be expected, but I think I prefer to leave that to the DMs since I don't want to forbid something I find OP but isn't in a specific game.

2) I was rather thinking more cantrips at low levels... or limiting the total number of spells cast to twice the proficiency modifier but that sort of goes against the whole concept of at-will spells.

--Holic (talk) 08:15, 11 May 2018 (MDT)

Minor Update

About the power spikes and underpowered levels.

It seems to me the 1-5 levels aren't necessarily underpowered : considering medium armor & martial weapons proficiency, the Cantrips, fighting style, subclass abilities, classic 4th level. Also,the power-spike of level 5 corresponds with the WotC power spike of Extra attack for combat classes, so no problems there from my point of view.

Although there is perhaps a lack of novelty in combat mechanics between 6th & 8th level (subclass features at lvl 9 can spice things up), I wouldn't exactly call it underpowered. But further testing required :)

Also About Blobby383b's list of spells :

- we've eliminated all spells that take a Reaction or 1min or more to cast from the possible choices for fused spells, so that takes care of most of them. - same with 4th level spells & above - Arguably, at will mirror image or invisibility if it's all you can do as a hybrid caster, might not be as op as one might think. - 3rd level damaging spell... like fireball ? :) At level 17, I'd argue that maybe that's ok.

--Holic (talk) 14:26, 13 June 2021 (MDT)

Somebody Was Here

Well... seems someone came along and changed everything according to their idea.

I'll admit this is probably more balanced than my original idea, though a bit tepid for my taste. The subclasses for example seem to just copy the mechanics and abilities of existing classes but in a lesser version meant to work with the unique Spellfused concept.

Also need to fix those two dead levels : 7th and 14th level.

This is your stuff now, whoever you are, I'll leave you to mod it as you please...

--Holic (talk) 15:23, 18 June 2022 (MDT)