Talk:Spear Dancer (5e Subclass)

Class vs Subclass

This seems more like a class than a subclass. Also, extra attack at 3rd level is significantly stronger than other classes that get it at 5th level. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:07, 12 December 2018 (MST)

Balancing

Agile Footwork. Agile Footwork is basically the Mobile feat in better. I understand that it matches the thematic of this subclass, but due to all the ASIs fighter get, you certainly have the opportunity to take the Mobile feat. Also, when you are level 5, you potentially get 80 feet additional movement by using action surge at the start of your turn, 2 attacks from your action, 2 attacks from Barrage of Strikes, 2 attacks from your second attack action and 2 attacks again from Barrage of Strikes.

Barrage of Strikes. Barrage of Strikes is a very inconsistent damage feature as you can only make use of it once per short rest; two times per short rest starting at 17th level.

Twinned Strikes. You most likely chose the Polearm Master feat at some point, meaning you already have a weaker additional attack as a bonus action.

Darting Dash. With 3 attacks per attack action, Barrage of Strikes and Twinned Strikes, you potentially gain 170 feet additional movement in single turn just through attacks. That's 200 feet total movement in normal cases, 210 feet with the Mobile feat and all of that while making 11 attacks.

Whirlwind. You aready make 3 attacks per Attack action, 4 attacks per Attack action in two more levels. Not to forget Twinned Strikes. A fighter doesn't need this feature.

--Kevidiffel (talk) 06:42, 20 July 2022 (MDT)

Rebuttal

First off, thank you for the insightful and polite feedback!! Now, i'll address your concerns one by one:

Agile Footwork. Feats are not considered when designing a class, due to them being part of optional rules, so i often ignore if a feature grants a similar benefit than a feat.

But, your second point is valid, the amount of free movement this feature gives you is broken, i'll limit that!

Barrage of Strikes. I don't see how being an inconsistent damage feature is a problem. Official classes such as the Samurai or Arcane Archer have a similar limited use damage feature as their core.

Also, this is a secondary benefit for the class, the primary one being Agile Footwork. Having two consistent main features could lead to imbalance.

Twinned Strikes. Although you are correct that polearm master is usually a choice for spear users, Feats are an optional rule, and don't need to be considered when designing a subclass.

Darting Dash. Limiting agile footwork makes darting dash less of a problem. And also, is usable only once per turn. Considering that, does this change your opinion on it?

Whirlwind. This feature fits a different niche than the extra attacks. Is meant to give the fighter an AoE ability, which i think is an option fighters often have. But do you have a suggestion for a replacement to this feature?

Anastacio (talk) 07:05, 20 July 2022 (MDT) ~

Answer to rebuttal

First of all, you are welcome :)

Agile Footwork. I understand your point of view. Maybe I'm to harsh with this, but especially in the case of the fighter who gets a lot of ASIs, making several feats almost redundant doesn't sound like the right move to me. Yes, you are right, it's an optional rule and that feature would be great on a table that doesn't use feats, but on a table that uses feats the purpose of the Mobile feat gets lost. I think the new version is a lot better and is more in line with other features like Cunning Action from rogue.

Barrage of Strikes. I'm not sure if this feature isn't too strong for a secondary feature, especially now that you can use the Disengage or Dash action with Agile Footwork as a bonus action. Usually, a fighter could consider to use the action granted from Action Surge to take the Disengage or Dash action. Those options aren't really necessary anymore, so your aboslute primary use for the action from Action Surge will be another Attack action. Consider a level 5 +4 DEX fighter. That's 8 attacks once per short rest in a single round at level 5, with a base line of 40 damage assuming every attack hits. Maybe let the additional attacks be made with disadvantage?

Twinned Strikes. I tend to disagree, but again, I understand your point of view.

Darting Dash. I will be honest, I agree with vladulenta here. This feature is almost equivalent to "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you have 60 more movement this turn".

Whirlwind. Would need to think about it, but I would for sure replace it with something else.

--Kevidiffel (talk) 08:50, 20 July 2022 (MDT)

Answer to the Answer (lol)

Fair enough! I'll making some adjustments based on yours and vladulenta's feedback and lets hope it gets better, hehe. Anastacio (talk) 07:56, 24 July 2022 (MDT)

Darting Dash is Bad

The idea of darting dash is bad, not mechanically, the in-world action. Running up to pick up a weapon you just threw into someone is stupid and counter-productive. Should be reflavored to be a charge or something. There's also no limits or stipulations to the effect, so you could throw the spear's entire range of 60ft. , miss, run to it to pick it up and do it two more times, I personally don't think 150+ ft. of movement in one turn is a problem (because there's nothing you could use it for, realistically) but some people do. vladulenta (talk)

Once per turn is not a limitation? Anastacio (talk) 08:19, 20 July 2022 (MDT)

Didn't read that, my bad. As I said, I don't think it would've been a problem anyway, it's just a stupid action. vladulenta (talk)