Talk:Skeleton (5e Race)

What is this a skeleton of? A human skeleton? You may also want to look at the skeleton features either in the DMG p. 282 or the MM entry. Marasmusine (talk) 01:46, 22 January 2015 (MST)

What do you think? Azernath (talk) 16:36, 25 March 2015 (MDT)

How come they start off so gosh-darned short? Vobria (talk) 04:34, 27 August 2016 (MDT)

I had to read this race over twice to be sure I was reading it correctly, so why does it only get a total of +2 to its racial ASIs? Every other race gets a minimum of +3, with some even getting +4, so what's the deal with this? I'm likely to adjust this in time, but I'll wait for a response.Vobria (talk) 19:23, 5 May 2020 (MDT)

The base race give you +1 con and the subraces each give +1 to two different ability scores so I believe you have just misread the race.--Blobby383b (talk) 20:57, 5 May 2020 (MDT)

I'm not so sure. Read the subraces and notice that the ASIs state "or" between the attributes, meaning you pick one or the other to increase, not both. Switching "or" out with "and" would make it more clear, so I'll go ahead and make the change since it isn't too invasive. Vobria (talk) 03:16, 7 May 2020 (MDT)

The class was balanced as it was and the "or" wording was purposeful. Not every race needs to get +3 ASI to be balanced. --PJammaz (talk) 05:30, 7 May 2020 (MDT)

Of course not every race needs a +3 to be balanced. Strictly speaking, balance is already very subjective and no official standard exists for it. You could make a race with 0 racial ASAs (or even negative ASAs) that's still technically balanced, but that doesn't mean you should do it. Balance isn't the issues, as I never said that this race needed +3 to racial ASAs to be balanced, I pointed out that it's inconsistent for no real reason. In fact, the design guide on this wiki discourages things like <3 ASAs and advises using the standard +3 method, and I think rightfully so. It generally produces better races that are less likely to be pigeon-holed. Vobria (talk) 07:20, 7 May 2020 (MDT)

Looking at the race, it did have only +2 to its abi due to the subraces using "or". I believe that in most cases races should have at least a +3 abi to make the race more comparable to other races, but I am unsure whether in the case for this race it pushes it into becoming too powerful. For now, looking at the race I would say that it does not, but would like to hear if anyone has differing opinions on the matter.--Blobby383b (talk) 09:16, 7 May 2020 (MDT)

One of the primary contributors, ConcealedLight, gave the race a Musicus score. Changing the wording increases the 6.5 score to a 7.5. This isn't a huge problem, but I would be interested to hear what ConcealedLight has to say. --PJammaz (talk) 14:51, 7 May 2020 (MDT)

I just checked out the race design guide and it only says that +3 ASI is the precedent, not the rule. --PJammaz (talk) 14:54, 7 May 2020 (MDT)

I don't believe a +3 ASA would increase the Musicus rating considering that +3 is the baseline. The Musicus guide states that negative ASAs do not decrease the score, so I'd imagine it'd be similar here. If a negative ASA doesn't decrease it, then a total ASA below 3 definitely shouldn't, so standardizing it at +3 should keep the score the same. Vobria (talk) 03:47, 8 May 2020 (MDT)

The Musicus score gets +1 for each ASI until after +3, at which point it becomes a +1.5 for each additional ASI. The skeleton is at a 7.5 as it is now. --PJammaz (talk) 05:11, 8 May 2020 (MDT)

You may be right on that, but the Musicus guide doesn't explicitly state it. It simply says that +3 is the baseline and that negative ASAs don't reduce the rating. Vobria (talk) 12:34, 8 May 2020 (MDT)

Issues

These issues have been pointed out, feel free to disagree with them, otherwise I'll get round to addressing them somehow.

• Not only do you get a tonne of traits, you also get 4 ability score increases, and you get a choice as to where those ability score increases go. The answer is no.
• The subraces are extremely overpowered for the kinds of abilities that a subrace should add onto the main race. Overall, the skeleton is so overpowered, if it were available as a base player option, it would astound me if anyone didn’t pick skeleton. They’re just so unbelievably better than any of the PHB races it’s not even worth talking about the individual traits.
• None of the subraces have anything to do with the skeletons in the MM. None of their abilities match up with the MM skeleton at all except Darkvision.
• “[You are] vulnerable to bludgeoning from non-magical weapons” does this mean that you’re not vulnerable to bludgeoning damage from magical weapons?! This is really poorly thought out.

--SgtLion (talk) 10:44, 20 September 2016 (MDT)

They shouldn't be able to cast animate dead until they are at least 5th level, as it's a 3rd level spell. Marasmusine (talk) 11:23, 19 August 2017 (MDT)

• The race says nothing about if it is considered an undead or a living construct, which is important to figuring out whether or not it can heal through spells and potions or only by short and long rests.

• Your race should NOT be both Humanoid and Undead, it just doesn't work, Centaurs and minotaurs are fine for this since beast doesn't have anything that would cause issues if someone had that and another however Undead have very specific effects dealing with them and only them which don't affect humanoids, it leads to issues with many spells, it should be one or the other, or you should elaborate, keep it as Undead in my opinion*

--Some viewer

Wait, what? centaurs and minotaurs were monstrosities, not humanoids or beasts, at least last time I checked. However I agree that a creature that's both undead and humanoid makes very little sense. Quincy (talk) 15:46, 20 November 2018 (MST)

The main reason to make this race both humanoid and undead is game balance. Not being humanoid means that a skeleton PC would not be susceptible to common low-level effects like hold person which target humanoids specifically; a character would instead have to use the much higher-level hold monster. I agree that it makes no sense whatsoever to make this humanoid, but sometimes sense must give way to balance. — Geodude (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 16:36, 20 November 2018 (MST)

Oh! Huh, I didn't even think about it in that way. That's a fair point. Quincy (talk) 16:50, 20 November 2018 (MST)

if it is both humanoid and undead though it leads to healing issues, Undead cannot heal but humanoids can, so can the skeleton heal or not? this means the balance problem is pretty one sided, not being affected by hold person is good, however not being able to heal keeps it fair (if not unfair to the player). User:Some viewer

Musicus

Musicus Meter Score: 7.5

This race has a score of 7.5 according to the Musicus Meter race guidelines. With this metric, first-party races' scores range from 4.5 to 8. This is a guideline, not a rule, and it's important to use your own judgment alongside this scoring.

This scoring may be the groundwork for a focused {{needsbalance}} usage. A contributor to this page may request a detailed breakdown of this page's balance. Without this information, {{needsbalance}} may then be removed. This meter cannot be the sole basis for a needsbalance template, but may be included as an accessory to a wider discussion of a race's balance.

This template should only be placed on a race's talk page. If this template is not placed on the talk page, please move it.

I've balanced this race out and filled in the fluff that was lacking in several areas. For clarity, I've added in its Musicus rating above. If you have any query's or concerns please make them here. ConcealedLight (talk) 05:58, 13 December 2017 (MST)