Talk:Quicklings (3.5e Race)

Thoughts?

Hey, what do people think of this? Is it balanced, or is there something missing? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.42.208.182 (talk • contribs) 17:34, 28 August 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

This was on the WoTC forums wasn't it? I mean I know Gyax updated the monster to 3.5 but I'm pretty sure I saw this.-Risek 06:46, 12 September 2008 (MDT)

Well, I found this link, and from what I can tell, it appears to be the same thing, but hey, if this article is to survive, it should probably undergo some massive changes here on the wiki to make it usable. If someone manages to convince me, I'll adopt it, rather than see it get deleted.--Ganteka 19:48, 7 October 2008 (MDT)

Uuuuh...240ft movement +spring attack? GaaaaaH 23:32, 7 October 2008 (MDT)

It wasn't ever converted into a playable race. Any ideas on how it's overpowered? +7-8 ECL is what Soldarin's ecl calc says this thing might be, unless I'm doing my math wrong. I think I saw somewhere that it also got weapon finesse, but I could be mistaken. What changes would be needed to make it usable? I'm kinda cautious about stepping on feet, so I'd rather know what is okay before I go ahead and add/create more. I mean, is it okay to use most of the 2E entry to fill this up? would it be best to create the background for the race from scratch? all ideas are helpful. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.68.165.231 (talk • contribs) 08:14, 8 October 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

Well, excellent, finally, someone who knows the source material. I was going to adopt this, but if you want to give it the complete overhaul it needs to be usable (ignoring most of the source in favor of playability). For starters, that speed needs to drop tremendously, perhaps down to around 60 feet, and the ability scores need to take a hit too. The invisibility should also be reworked, as well as the spells and haste, so basically everything needs to be redone. As for the flavor, I'd recommend new flavor text being written. A final LA of 2 or 3 would be ideal hear to capture the essence of the thing, give it some flavor, but keep it usable. If you still want to do it, go ahead, otherwise I'll take a crack at it. Also, signing up for an account would be a good idea if you plan on making lots of edits to the site. --Ganteka 09:40, 8 October 2008 (MDT)

Oh, Gygax never updated the monster to 3.5. It was a group of people who produced the Tome of Horrors that updated the creature first to 3.0 and then to 3.5 (though, I never saw the latter version and didn't realize it existed until just now thanks to Google.) Machine X 00:04, 9 October 2008 (MDT)

Unplayably Bad

This isn't good. It's unplayably bad. LA +7? It might as well not exist.

Cut out the bullshit (+16 dex, permanent haste) to get the LA in line (having the LA in line means having the LA be +0). Then maybe it could be useful. Surgo 11:15, 8 October 2008 (MDT)

Ah, I trimmed out a lot of the bulk of the race with this adoption, though of course as an adopted page, more suggestions and comments from the community are welcome. --Ganteka 12:27, 8 October 2008 (MDT)

What about haste at will, but only for personal use? These things are supposed to be creatures that are extremely fast and hard to get near. I understand that from a playability aspect, some parts of the creature had to be culled, but the speed is something I'd like to see remain. Also, why chenge the base movement if wearing armor? I could see it if it had a greater dexterity, but as it stands the race isn't much more dextrous than an elf in this incarnation. Armor shouldn't impede mobility at that level. --Machine X 00:17, 9 October 2008 (MDT)

Self-haste at will is still pretty damn powerful, enough that it pushes the LA up to unplayable levels. It can be given a speed of 40' or something, with SLAs culled in response. Surgo 18:59, 8 October 2008 (MDT)

The Blinding Speed feat (which is an epic feat) allows for 5 rounds of free haste a day. Giving something haste all the time, at first level is a game breaker. In addition, I did make some more changes, giving them the Run feat with a bit of a boost to give them that speedy feel, while still not giving them much more advantage (at least in most combats). Also, I modified their encumbrance penalty to reflect that of the barbarian now. I still feel that they are a little strong as a LA 0 race, and am considering what to do for a minor fun drawback. Though, I am considering making a beefed up LA +1 version just to add more stuff to them as a variant. --Ganteka 19:25, 8 October 2008 (MDT)

What about an additional use of self-haste/day every two class levels to a max of the unmodified con or dex mod (whichever's higher), or something along those lines? Machine X 23:54, 8 October 2008 (MDT)

Edits Undone?

I'm curious as to why the latest sets of edits were rolled back (considering I feel that the page was stronger with those edits). Did I or Machine X do something wrong? --Ganteka 11:12, 11 October 2008 (MDT)

Ah, sorry! I edited an out-of-date revision of the page which carried back the old edits. Sorry! It should be better now... --Green Dragon 11:36, 11 October 2008 (MDT)

The Wrong Direction

I am actually disappointed with the direction the Quickling is going in. I want to stress that these things are *all about speed* the faster they go and the more agile they are, the better. what I'm looking at now is nothing akin to what a Quickling is. A Quickling isn't any +0LA. I never put this race up here with intentions for it to be a playable race from level one or two. It's like playing a dragon, you can't do it unless the game is already mid-level. Hence the +7 LA that I had on the race from the start. I took a look at Soldarin's ECL Calculator and put in the racial bonuses and stats from the race and came out with a +7-8 ECL.

Why has the *Quickling* been dummied down to the speed and power of a human or elf? It makes no sense for this race to be so slow. Machine X 19:02, 11 October 2008 (MDT)

Well, it was reduced because it was deemed "...too overpowered to play" and put up for deletion. However, since you feel sleighed, its easy enough to either A: Split this version off onto its own page and reinstitute the original stat block (which can be located in the page's history here) or B: put the original stat block back in and list both versions on this page, listing the weaker version as the LA 0 variant. How does that sound? --Ganteka 19:24, 11 October 2008 (MDT)

I have an idea that might suit everyone's tastes, though it would involve quite a bit of work and some knowledge of the site's mechanics. What about a level progression for the race? It wouldn't really fit cannon since these things are (in my mind) fast from birth, but this would allow for everyone to have something that suits them. Machine X 19:48, 11 October 2008 (MDT)

Yeah, its doable. Kinda like what is listed in Savage Species. I did a short 4 level progression for the Einherjar as a test to see if that worked, and I think it turned out okay. Though yeah, by adding racial Hit Dice over a few levels of getting their full racial abilities and such (as fey, they'll only get a couple of HD as most of the adjustment comes from stats and speed). So in the end, it'll probably be around an ECL of 9 or 10, depending on how many Hit Dice get put into the mix, but, you'll be able to play one from Level 1 then. Though the current LA 0 version is a bit different than the LA +7 version in terms of special qualities and spells and such. For now, I'll list the original version along with the LA 0 version until any monstrous progression gets worked out. --Ganteka 20:06, 11 October 2008 (MDT)

The hit dice come with class level. The monster, as you posted above, only had 3 hp. if a person staggers the level progression with class levels they are going to get a better build than if they only had monster hit dice. Just food for thought.--Machine X 21:26, 11 October 2008 (MDT)

It wasn't too overpowered to play...it was too weak to be playable. Because being stupidly fast was given LA +7, which is absolutely unplayable. Surgo 20:06, 11 October 2008 (MDT)

I just used the ECL Calculator provided by Soldarin. If you can think of an ECL better reflecting the race's abilities, then please let us know what you think.--Machine X 20:13, 11 October 2008 (MDT)

Make it into a monster. Give it hit dice equivalent to its challenge rating. LA is a completely useless measurement, and anything above 1 is nigh unplayable. There is no magic 'calculator' that will figure it out. Try playing a race with LA +7 at -any- level and not sucking (the old quickling here, or the vampire at LA+8). It won't happen. Surgo 20:15, 11 October 2008 (MDT)

I believe that there's a link to the monster near the beginning of the discussion. My personal use for the race was going to be for the dex and the movement scores. I mean, what would you think if one of your foes were to be jumping over you, out of reach, and raining arrows down on you while you had to devise a way to stop that from happening. What would you think if one of your party members were doing that to an enemy?--Machine X 21:21, 11 October 2008 (MDT)

I'd think that it would be pretty pathetic that zero of the arrows were hitting, as will be what actually happens as the quicklings are seven levels behind everyone else. Surgo 09:49, 12 October 2008 (MDT)

Actually if you think about it it has the same possibility of hitting as an elf fighter. The quickling has a dex mod of +8 and the elf has the +1 from dex and the +7 BAB. Assuming they both start with the same base dex, they get the same bonus on the ranged attacks. --Sakurasboy 17:48, 28 October 2008 (MDT)

Except not, because the elf is 8 levels ahead of you. That means he gets another +2 to his dexterity score, if he cares. He also has class features, which can either help him a little (Ranger) or a lot (Cleric). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Surgo (talk • contribs) 18:47, 28 October 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

Property Tag Links

I am unable to get the property tags to get the LA 7 variant to pop up on the LA 7 Races page. What am I doing wrong? --Ganteka 19:07, 22 October 2008 (MDT)

Oh, you have to purge the page. Because it's a page which uses SMW it saves information about the page, to decrease the loading times. --Green Dragon 13:08, 23 October 2008 (MDT)