Talk:Paladin (5e Subclass)

If your aim is to make a spell-less paladin, then why not make a spell-less paladin variant? I'd love to help make that. --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 11:37, 5 December 2018 (MST)

Well, the method I used was based on trying to tie it back to old-style d&d, when all the martial classes (right down from Barbarian to Ranger and Paladin) were more or less explicitly fighter subtypes, but sure, making it a spell-less Archetype of the Paladin class sounds like a perfectly valid method. Little bit more trimming to do, perhaps, instead of simply inserting paladin-type abilities into the Fighter's Archetype slots, but could be a worthwhile experiment. I'll see if I can't get around to working something up for comparison sometime... --Sir Dinadan (talk) 13:51, 5 December 2018 (MST)

I understand where you're coming from, and the function of homebrew can take some time to get used to. For instance, the character idea brought up in the balance banner could thematically be made as a Fighter with the Acolyte background (or Folk Hero if you make your destiny have something to do with divinity). As for emulating the Paladin subclass of AD&D, this subclass has no memorable features from the 2e paladin (detecting evil, curing wounds, saving throw bonuses, etc). Homebrew exists to explore new concepts, both thematically and mechanically, within Dungeons & Dragons. This website exists to share new and interesting developments in homebrew. I hope this clears everything up, or was there anything else I could help you with? --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 11:54, 6 December 2018 (MST)

Yeah, I'm a little unclear why exactly the Subclass is recommended for deletion... is it because it's overpowered, or is it a thematic concern? I've heard it both ways about the power balance: some people told me it was too weak, others that it was too strong (a good hint that it's actually in the right ballpark). If thematically, how is this interpretation of the paladin (non-magical soldier whose mortal mind and body are shielded against the horrors of the abyssal) not interesting? No offense taken of course, but I'm really not sure what the problem is... --Sir Dinadan (talk) 13:45, 6 December 2018 (MST)

Let's try to define that finicky term, "balanced." I think a good working definition would be "a function that is worthwhile without rendering it a no-brainer: ie, doesn't displace and render anything else worthless." Given that guideline, let's compare the third-level features with some other archetypes. Mental immunities vs, say, Battlemaster's superiority dice. Hard to definitively say which is better: four shots of increased killing power and expanded tactical options vs fearlessness and iron will. Really depends on what sort of character you're going for and what enemies you're facing (that's sort of the point of this archetype: empowering mortal will to stand against extraordinary threats).

Or let's take the damage resitances at high level: everything except magical weapons and the top arcane damage type. I remind you that at high level most monster attacks count as being magical weapons. Moreover, the Bear barbarian gets better damage resistance at level 3.

Hope this addresses some of your concerns: is there something else in particular that strikes you as being a potential problem?--Sir Dinadan (talk) 14:02, 6 December 2018 (MST)

Balance Issues within the Page

Several features of this class do not align with the function of balance on this website (see the 5e Class Design Guide). --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2018 (MST)

Divine Protection

Let's take this piece by piece, as this feature has six mechanically relevant effects.

• Immunity to disease is, in-and-of-itself, enough to classify as its own feature at this level (see Divine Health of the Paladin)
• Immunity to the frightened condition (which is what I assume you mean when you say "fear") at all times is not galined by any class until level 10, by the paladin, yet here it is at level 3, along with all of these other effects
• Immunity to effects that would possess you is immense. Not a single class gives you an immunity that powerful (or niche), not even at level 20, and you're offering it as part of a feature at level 3?
• Immunity to charm is also pretty big. The only class that gives that is the Monk's Stillness of Mind, and even that isn't advantage, it's using your action to end the effect, implying that you can, in fact, fail the effect
• "All attempts to invade your mind automatically fail" probably includes attempts to read the player's mind, which the Great Old One (Warlock patron) doesn't grant until level 10
• The Great Old One also gives resistance to psychic damage at level 10, not level 3

As you can see, this feature as a whole is entirely unacceptable. Also as an aside, insanity is a variant rule, and should be left to the side describing "Variant Rules". --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2018 (MST)

Holy Weapon

A minor point, but the wording implies that I can take a previously magical weapon and make it even more powerful. --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2018 (MST)

Aura of Resolve

See my thoughts on Divine Protection. --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2018 (MST)

Blessed

This feature has two effects:

• Advantage to all saving throws caused by magic. No other class gives you an advantage that powerful, not even at level 20.
•  Giving disadvantage to all attacks caused by all of those types? No other class gives others a disadvantage that powerful. Not even the Ranger gets that type of power against their Favored Enemy types, not even at level 20.

That's not one, but two unbelievably powerful features offered at level 15. --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2018 (MST)

Holy Champion

An extra 1d8 radiant damage is fine, but let's discuss the resistances. The only class or subclass feature that gives resistance to so many damage types is given by the Paladin's Oath of Redemption (from Xanathar's Guide), which deserves it because that subclass is literally a practical pacifist. --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2018 (MST)

Deletion of the Page

This content is redundant, which is grounds for deletion on this site (see the 5e Class Design Guide as well as the [https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Help:Deletion_Policy Deletion Policy). --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2018 (MST)

Thematically Redundant

This brings nothing new to the table, as one could make a holy, non-magical warrior in several different ways using the base rules of the game. Examples of this include, but are not limited to:

• Acolyte Barbarian (berserker): a zealous preacher who can get real mad defending their religion
• Acolyte Fighter (champion): perhaps a young, rough-and-tumble missionary who is simply too young to otherwise be a paladin
• Acolyte Fighter (battle master): perhaps the old guard to an order of clergy that got wiped out
• Folk Hero Fighter (champion): a peasant who, early in their life, saw a vision that they were the key to winning a divine conflict
• Soldier Fighter (battle master): soldier of a failed religious crusade, not yet ready to stop fighting
• Acolyte Monk (way of the open hand): a religious monk
• Acolyte Rogue (thief): a tomb raider who unearths religious artifacts for their god

This is not counting Volo's Guide (which adds the Aasimar) or Xanathar's Guide (which adds the barbarian Path of the Zealot). If one put a little more thought into their character creation, a whole world of opportunity would present itself. One need only sit and read the materials they already have. --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2018 (MST)

Mechanically Unoriginal

This subclass offers no features that would expand the gameplay of 5e. Immunities (and granting those immunities to allies), bonuses to weapon damage, magical strikes, giving advantage to yourself, giving disadvantage to others, resistance to damage types, this has all been done before. The only feature that is somewhat unique is Healing Hands, but that is far from saving the subclass as a whole. Yes, besides Healing Hands, this subclass offers nothing we haven't seen before. --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2018 (MST)

User Conduct

User SirDinadan has rejected the spirit of this wiki by deleting the criticism of their page and arguing against the criticism rather than trying to understand it. It is a well known website policy that if one doesn't want your ideas mercilessly peer-reviewed, then they should not post them. Similarly, if one doesn't feel comfortable with their ideas not being well-recieved by people, then they should not post their ideas. --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2018 (MST)

Mission of Sabotage

Well I do say; someone sounds almost offended. I've never seen anyone evidence such an immense interest in removal of homebrew content: neither here on D&D Wiki nor Unearthed Arcana, neither my material or anyone else's. The severity of your objection seems almost personal...

Regarding the immunities at level three, a standard-issue paladin has those bases (except insanity) covered with Protection From Evil (a terrific spell if there ever was one), minus the imposition of disadvantage on enemy attacks. Both paladin types (assuming Devotion archetype) gain that permanent immunity at level 15. Advantage against spells is a solid Paladin ability, either through casting of Circle of Power or Capstone feature for Devotion (as well as being an option for Asimar and default inheritance of the snakey people). Wrong again about the damage resistances: What this archetype gains as a capstone feature the Bear Barbarian gains at level three, in better form because that bruiser gets resistance to magical weapons... or did you not forget that, merely choosing to overlook it in your zeal to have this offensive material removed?

Throughout all, the question of balance is weighed solidly against the standard paladin flexibility of spell selection and smiting power. The spellcaster gets a lot more nifty tricks well worth considering.

"Mechanically Unoriginal" Don't make me laugh: the greater portion of this site's content is "mechanically unoriginal." This is about production of new material and fine tuning of old ideas (my Ranger subclass a favourite of the latter method). If the tone and specificity of this Paladin doesn't please you, then you needn't play it. And pray do not imagine that I care one fig for your opinion: you had ample opportunity to give solid reason for correction, failing that, came in late with innacurate onslaught seemingly hell-bent on undermining this piece.

"Arguing against critism rather than trying to udnerstand it." Sorry to hear your tender recommendations cannot bear the threat of disagreement. And this may come as a heavy blow to you, but yours is but one opinion among many: some positive some negative, but none with the singular mission of sabotage. If you have nothing else of substance then you may take your ill spent time and waste elsewhere without any assistance from me: I have no more use for you. --Sir Dinadan (talk) 19:25, 7 December 2018 (MST)

Please avoid assuming bad faith on the part of other users. WP:AGF is a good read on this topic. Nothing I've seen on this talk page has led me to believe that TheStoryEnthusiast has any sort of personal issue with the article. I disagree with him that the page should be deleted for being redundant; that deletion criterion is usually used when the exact same content is reposted to several pages.

On the subject of balance, since this is a fighter subclass, it should be compared to other, first-party fighter subclasses when judging balance, and should not be compared to the paladin. I haven't taken a close enough look at the page to know whether it deserves a {{needsbalance}} template on those grounds, but just keep that in mind. — Geodude (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 23:15, 7 December 2018 (MST)

I completely misjudged that policy. My sincerest apologies on that front. I will be happy going forward with this discussion regarding the revising of this subclass, rather than its deletion. --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 14:44, 8 December 2018 (MST)

On the note of the bear totem: that only functions while the barbarian is raging, but yeah I completely forgot about that, my bad. Besides that and your blatant mistaking my extensive criticism of this subclass for personal feelings, you failed to address just how thematically redundant this is, cited the unoriginality of others as a means to justify your own, cited reviews that give your material praise without listing where we can find those reviews, and compared subclass features to spells (and I believe racial features as well).

I will admit, however, that my notes on user conduct were, in fact, inflected by the vehement response given to my initially cheery and hospitable critiques.

I'd also like to point out, after all's said and done, that you named it the Paladin. Why can't we just use the source material? Why do we have to reinvent the wheel? Help me understand your train of thought for keeping this subclass the way it is. --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 13:55, 8 December 2018 (MST)

I'd also like to point that you've been using very inflammatory language, where I have not done so. It's hurtful to hear your message so emotionally charged, so directly aggressive. D&D is my passion, and I give a great deal of thought to every homebrew I read. Please don't mistake my hyperfixation for personal vendetta. I don't feel like I'm "of use" to anyone, merely pouring my mind into homebrew after homebrew, offering my time and effort should I ever feel the inclination to do so. --TheStoryEnthusiast (talk) 14:44, 8 December 2018 (MST)

Thanks, Geodude: your mediation is much appreciated.--Sir Dinadan (talk) 20:13, 8 December 2018 (MST)

In Defence.

Made an account years ago, and dug through old files, to find my login data, to say, I love this and would definitely allow this at my table. It captures the classic western crusader of Godly virtue. It fills a sort of retro role, taking us back to the days when martial classes where martial classes were considered fighter subclasses. And it also would be fantastic for a player who wants to be the paladin, but might be inexperienced with resource management, and have issues with choice paralysis that might come along with the spell bassed paladin. I don't see glaring power imbalance,(I feel as though it might be underpowered if anything) and as per my prior statements, it is in no way redundant. Therefore @TheStoryEnthusiast I can find no grounds for your issue with this, and it would seem a personal dislike on your part. That's okay, it's the internet. There is tons of thing there and here that I personally don't like. But that's okay, not everything has to be to our liking. For example, I don't like lawful evil, or communism. But that's okay. This being up, does not somehow threaten you or anyone else, nor does it mean you have to use it.

• Buletten.

• Classic and retro.

• Fills nostalgia role.

• Thematically potent.

• Useful for inexperienced players.

Pardon any formatting issues. This is I think the first time I've said anything on this wiki.

The previous comment was left by Ēnŏr Brŏdlēaf.