Talk:Master Thief (5e Class)

After testing, class needs some nerfing.

I playtested this class with a DND group I usually do one-shots with. We were all doing different homebrew classes, and I chose this one. We all started at level 5, so I feel I've garnered a good feeling of the class's abilities. Here are some of the issues I've come across with the class:

Cunning Dodge / Cat's Agility

Having these abilities allows the class to have a constant means of more survivability in exchange for a resource which you have a lot of. Especially if you are 5th level, with the "Unstoppable Cunning" feature allowing an infinitude of any of your Cunning Tricks, including these ones which allow you a large amount of ease in a 1v1 fight. For reference, Rogues don't get an ability to dodge saving throw damage completely until 7th level, and this doesn't include the adding of whatever you rolled on your Cunning Die to your role. This can guarantee you survive, say for example, an Ancient Red Dragon breathing flames on your entire 5th level party which should be fatal, all for the cost of 1 class resource. Which you regain one of, if you are out, at the beginning of your next turn.

These abilities need some kind of reworking; Either lowering the amount added to the dodge (i.e, halving the amount rolled and rounding up, that way there is still some merit to using it), or increasing the cost so that it can't be a go-to survival button for what's supposed to be a less combative class whom is focused more on theft, stealth, and sniping with ranged weaponry.

Backstab

Backstab shouldn't be able to be used after rolling damage. Simple as that. As well, instead of getting a cunning die after rolling the maximum of the die, you should get it back after rolling a 1; That way, you don't get rewarded while dealing insane amounts of damage. In the aforementioned test game, my character got extremely lucky and got 2 8s in a row after getting 2 Backstab crossbow shots in a row (which, by direct words on the Backstab Cunning Trick, is allowed). This allowed the character to clear out a majority of a Worg + Orc encounter, six monsters in total.

Treasure Hunting

I feel like this feature should be usable up to your Intelligence Modifier's amount of times, rather than relying on your Proficiency bonus like many other features in this class. This makes it so Intelligence is more useful overall for the class, rather than allowing the player to dump all their stats into Dexterity, like traditional Rogues do. Maybe make it so you can adjust the amount of what objects are worth, up to the amount stated by the feature currently. For our campaign, there was not many useful times the feature could be used, since much of the beginning town was poor, the most luxurious things being 15 gp at the most. Not having it be adjustable almost seems like a downgrade when you level up.

Uncanny Fugitive

While this didn't come up within the game, it might be a little broken to have a 5th level feature allow you to be constantly under the effects of an upgraded version of Nondetection. Maybe moving this to a later level would be better.

Unstoppable Cunning

This ability is the crux of why a lot of features in this class is broken. Most class resources (Sorcery Points, Ki, even Spell Slots for Warlocks) are resources because they are not easy to get. Most features that allow for passive regaining of a class resource are gotten at extremely late levels, most being at 20th level. With this being as early as it is, it causes a lot of abilities to be broken, allowing the character to have higher survivability, more damage, or allowing any attack to have a higher chance of hitting (with the Legendary Thief subclass, which I chose).

Conclusion

I have not tested anything above 5th level Master Thief. However, certain higher-level abilities do seem to be a cause for concern as well. Things such as Assassination making Backstab even stronger of an option, Sweet Talker removing Charisma investment as a worthwhile option, Thief's Reflexes giving you more turn economy (Even at the deficit of -10 Initiative), Criminal Mastermind allowing you to make your teammates harder to kill, and Legendary Talent making a normal class feature stronger, it seems like this class is more focused on vertical growth (making current options stronger) instead of horizontal growth (creating more options for the character to use) which isn't the typical way DND classes should be developed.

I like the ideas presented in this class, just worry if you decide to pick this class to adjust some features if you want to be along similar strength to traditional classes. --DrGuest (talk) 13:09, 26 March 2023 (MDT)

Response to post above

Preface

Been playing D&D for over 5 years now, using everything from homebrew to just about content from every book to variant rules. Master Theif was one of the more recent ones which I've picked up and took a liking to, and I'd like to give my 2 cents on clarifying its identity and strengths and justifying most of its features.

Cunning Dodge / Cat's Agility

Now I won't argue about the high amounts of survivability that this class boasts, especially from these two features, but I will argue in favor of the survivability granted by these features isn't anywhere near as strong as you believe. Yes, Rogue's usually don't get the benefits from evade until 7th level, but this isn't rogue, and unlike rogues who will always have evasion active, this feature requires the use of a reaction, which in conjunction with a lot of your other abilities within your arsenal is inherently worth much more than a normal class. The way Master Thief was developed, it uses that singular (or in some cases two) reactions as the cornerstones of your survival compared to the normal Rogue-like class, making it a stand-out part of its identity, not strictly better. As for the power of its survivability in a 1v1 fight, I have to ask the context of the 1v1 in question because any creature with multiattack and, god forbid, another player can still get consistent damage on you, assuming you use the dodge feature on their initial attack because (strictly look at 5th level characters) they have better action economy than the master thief (excluding Marauder) because of the power of extra attack and anything else they may have. Finally, about the class being less combative, yes, that is how the class CAN be played, but the class WASN'T designed to strictly adhere to a singular playstyle.

Backstab

Backstab functions as this class's version of paladin's smite, which can functionally do the same thing after damage and is a good resource dumb to make up for the inherent lack of extra attack (for most subclasses) and to keep the class competitively viable in mid to late game. It's not sneak attack. It's to allow them to keep up in situations in which sneak attack wouldn't be usable, unlike rogue. This only betters the class's ability to differentiate itself from its progenitor. I will agree, however, that changing the refund to being on a 1 is probably for the best so that it doesn't feel like a win-more feature.

Treasure Hunting

I will agree, there are times when this is a dead feature, but it has its moments in the sun just enough so that in campaigns in which you are looking for treasure it can still be useful and could be clutch in select circumstances, so its lack of consistency in my eyes do serve to add flavor to the identity of the class rather than detract. As for adjusting the prices of items, that can be done through a myriad of ways, from persuasion checks to spell casting. A feature that can turn a rock to being worth 50 gold, however, is busted.

Uncanny Fugitive

This is a feature I can understand looks far stronger than it could be since it is functionally a constant 3rd-level spell. My response to this is the spell that it's mimicking. While yes, Nondetection can be VERY strong in some situations, but it suffers from the same problem as Teasure Hunting. It's very situational at best; moreover, unlike Nondetection, this isn't targetable, and Nondetection for the average caster isn't a spell worth picking unless the campaign or session warrants its use, in which case unless the Master Thief is by themselves, it doesn't protect other members of the party from the same effects. As for when the feature is obtained, it's extra padding to support not having extra attack because that's still a huge downside for the other subclasses (again, excluding Marauder).

Unstoppable Cunning

Firstly, I do want to emphasize how much this feature is being blown out of proportion in an average combat engagement. Yes, the ability to regain your primary resource is usually only granted at higher levels. However, I believe this is, to a large extent, needed for Master Thief to stay competitive. Again with exception of Marauder, this is your lifeline for competing with other classes both in homebrew and base 5e, who have so many methods of dealing burst and, most importantly, consistent damage across multiple rounds of combat. Moreover, suppose you do use the addition die strictly for damage. In that case, you ARE trading your survivability for that damage, making the strength in 1v1 which was addressed earlier, a moot point at best, especially since 1v1 combat is more often than not a rarity in most games.

Closing Statements

I've play tested every subclass (even reworked a subclass) available to Master Thief. I will admit it does look to be a very strong class, potentially broken, but the reality is often far different from our perceptions. Assassinate is a feature that can reach stupid levels of power realistically only in the event of a critical hit (which I will admit can get stupid and is worth addressing). Sweet Talker, while I understand can seem to eliminate charisma investment for a character, ultimately, it requires some level of investment into the stat because intelligence, more often than not, is a dump stat. I'd argue that this feature, by proxy of incentivizing you to build into Intelligence, helps diversify ability scores rather than completely invalidating charisma because charisma is still undoubtedly the better stat 90% of the time in most circumstances. Thief's Reflexes, in my eyes, can be very strong, too strong in fact, and I would agree does warrant at least a once-per-day limit, but beyond that doesn't need any more addressing. Criminal Mastermind is decent party utility to not make the class as selfish towards later levels where team reliance is almost mandatory, especially for a class such as this as it still only affects one additional person. Now then, as for Legendary Talent for the Legendary Thief subclass, this feature is very much appropriate for an 18th-level feature purely because of what an 18th-level character is expected to be combating. The very player's handbook explicitly states: "Levels 17-20: Characters achieve the pinnacle of their power becoming heroic or villainous archetypes in their own right. Their actions have consequences felt all around the world. Even the balance of the multiverse may hang in the balance during their quests." This should be enough reasoning on its own. Finally, I'll address the statement of vertical growth. Unless a class already has a strong horizontal base, which Master Thief does already boast via the Thievery feature, any more horizontal growth is unnessicary. All classes have both horizontal and vertical growth in some way, shape, or form, but a class that focuses on either one of the two is only built in that manner to accommodate for balance. Atypical shouldn't be a mark against the way a class was developed if the end product is fulfilling its fantasy while maintaining appropriate balance. --ThighRash (talk) 14:43, 26 March 2023 (MDT)