Talk:Machine Gun Assassin (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

Arguments

Ok, so granted, you will get 16 attacks at level 20 against medium and larger creatures, but if you read sudden strike's description it says that you deal "and extra 1d6 damage with her attack". The problem is that the master thrower's palm throw trick allows you to "throw 2 of each weapon with a single attack roll" and as the sudden damage is added on a attack by attack basis, each set of two stars will only get one sudden strike because it only used one attack to throw them, right? if you see a hole in this please say so because I've been looking for a way around this with a rouge... anyway let me know what you think.

Also, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the blink ring's 20% miss chance. frankly, the spell doesn't say either way but, if objects leaving your body always fell into the material plane, the you would never be able to use projectile weapons to attack ethereal creatures via blink. If this was the case the writers of the spell would have doubtlessly made some mention of it because it is not what you would expect to happen while in the ethereal plane.As no mention is made, i think it safe to assume that this is not the case and that objects left in the etherial plane stay there unless moved by an outside force. after all, if you where placed there by another spell, such as plane shift or ethereal jaunt, you would not expect the same to happen, would you?

I would agree with you on the first part if it wasn't for the part of Palm Throw where it says, "Damage for each weapon is resolved seperately..." This to me means that you resolve all damage, including sneak attack once more for both weapons.

As for the blink ring thing, I'll agree with you that it's cheesy (thus why it's under the "Munchkin Me" section), but I originally got it from this build, which uses it as the primary means of adding SA to damage. You can see the debate on it in the first few comments here which might clear things up a little as far as blink goes.

Lastly, be sure to sign your comments with four of these "~" (tildas?) ;-) --Ghostwheel 00:30, 23 July 2009 (MDT)

Well first of all, let me say that i'm a min/maxer by heard and i do want this to work. infact i've been woring on it for quite a while. Unfortunately, Wizards released a errata for CW here[[1]].in it it states the following:

Page 58: Master Thrower’s Thrown

Weapon Trick (class feature)

The master thrower’s palm throw ability counts as a

volley attack, and only one instance of precision-based

damage applies to the attack roll.

Which pretty much raps that one up. Course you can leave that out in house rules if you want...

as for the blink spell, i still think that an object leaving you would stay in what ever plane you happened to leave it in because, frankly, i see no reason that the spell blink would operate the same way as the spell enlarge person. This is because, in my mind, at least, they do two fundamentally different things. unlike enlarge person,blink does not alter the person, it shifts them back and forth between the two planes. If the spell was to end abruptly in the ethereal pland i don't see any reason that it the caster would be shifted because the spell was not holding the caster in the plane, it was simply shifting him between the planes. In my mind, this would also apply to weapons drooped/thrown by the caster. Still this is a gray area and, if your willing to accept that blinking individuals can't use range attacks on the ethereal plane and that all non-instantaneous spells always return their user (and their equipment) back to their original state no mater how they end, then i guess that's your prerogative as DM(this, by the way does not hold true for fly, by the way).

71.116.98.127 15:40, 23 July 2009 (MDT)

Nah, if it's been errata'd, then the errata stands; to do otherwise would be munchkinish (changing the rules to give yourself more power) in my mind. I'll make note of it and fix it today.

As for the blink spell, I agree with you that it's very ambiguous, and I don't like it myself very much, but if it works here then it should work in this case. I do think it's pretty cheap though, and thus put it under the "Munchkin Me" section, where DMs who looked the build over could decide for themselves how it works since it's not core to the build.

At any rate, thanks for pointing out the errata to me --Ghostwheel 22:22, 23 July 2009 (MDT)

well i was thinking and it's not an entire loss. you may not get extra damage but poison used on the blades will still be doubled. course poisons are kinda underpowered in anything but the lowest of levels, but with 16 saves and a cheap poison (say carrion crawler venom), well there is a good chance of them getting at least one 1. maybe when combined with a custom enchantment that cause the weapon to self poison... any way good luck on making this build work and i'm sorry for blowing a hole in it for you... i was kinda hoping you'd prove me wrong. 71.116.98.127 00:24, 24 July 2009 (MDT)

Even without Palm Throw, this build is far from weak. Let's take half the damage (going to be more since we're doubling the enhancement damage) just as an example. That still means over 350 damage. Now, the big thing about this isn't the incredible damage, but the touch attacks at range. With touch attacks, it gets past one of the big obstacles to hitting, and that's where the real power of the build comes in--combining full touch attacks at range with good damage. --Ghostwheel 00:44, 24 July 2009 (MDT)

New DPR at level 20 after errata is 544--not bad at all. --Ghostwheel 00:55, 24 July 2009 (MDT)

That said, this build does have an advantage over other ranged precision-based damage builds--it can deny enemies their dexterity bonus to AC at range, even if they have See Invisibility (though only at higher levels). --Ghostwheel 04:15, 24 July 2009 (MDT)

A completely different issue: Shuriken are treated as ammunition with regards to what happens to them when thrown. Masterwork ammunition is invariably destroyed when used, and magic weapons are always masterwork. The result, so far as I can see: your +10 shuriken are 1-use (unless teleporting helps somehow, which, if it's the same as the XPH feature, it probably doesn't), so you're burning 64,000 gp a round. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.98.193.56 (talk • contribs) 2009-09-01 20:50. Please sign your posts.

In theory that's true, but most DMs I've talked to would rather their PCs not waste thousands of GP a round just to look stylish (since you can do it just as easily with daggers), and have agreed to use the rules here. That said, one could still just use daggers if one wanted to, and since the majority of the damage comes from Sudden Strike, it wouldn't matter too much if you didn't get all the extra +x to attack/damage. --Ghostwheel 21:04, 31 August 2009 (MDT)

I was just wondering how exactly one gets 3 feats at the first level. Am I missing something? 220.255.7.186 05:27, 27 September 2009 (MDT)

Flaws grant you an extra feat ... limit two (Unearthed Arcana) 24.144.19.143 21:14, 18 December 2009 (MST)

Other Candidates for Picture

1 2 3 4 5

Anyone have any other ideas? --Ghostwheel 05:47, 29 July 2009 (MDT)

Weapon Enhancements

What does the "teleporting" effect on the weapon do? And what book is it in? "+5 Teleporting Shocking Frost Flaming Corrosive Shurikens" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.183.90.172 (talk • contribs) 2009-08-12 02:56. Please sign your posts.

+5 Teleporting Shocking Frost Flaming Corrosive (Magic Item Compendium) Shurikens. That help?

Though might want to add Distance instead of one of those to get a 40' range icrement instead of 30' to reduce the attack penalty by 2 when attacking from the farthest range one could SA from. --Ghostwheel 22:30, 11 August 2009 (MDT)

Ahh awesome, thank you. Amazing build by the way! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.183.90.172 (talk • contribs) 2009-08-12 17:54. Please sign your posts.

Thanks :-D Glad you like it. --Ghostwheel 12:03, 12 August 2009 (MDT)

what about +5 brilliand energy wounding(?). the ability that deals a point of con damage? also the feat from a dragon mag where you get a flurry of blows with thrown weapons.--Name Violation 21:42, 22 September 2009 (MDT)