Epic feats (such as Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting) cannot be taken before level 21. --Ghostwheel 03:47, 14 July 2009 (MDT)
- Yes they can, with the level 10 ability. Did you even read the page? Surgo 11:27, 14 July 2009 (MDT)
- So you're saying that ANY feat, even epic ones are obtainable (WITHOUT fulfilling the prerequisites) through the Bonus Feat option of the Rogue's "Special Ability" ability? I... highly doubt that. Also, constant 20% miss chance can really screw up your attacks. --Ghostwheel 11:30, 14 July 2009 (MDT)
- Can people not read referenced sources anymore? The unqualified bonus feat is right there in the Monster Manual (like I said). Adding Sneak Attack damage from ranged weapons is right there in the Blink spell (which I also said -- and spelled out). As for optimization, it does not always require a stupid mixture of classes and prestige classes -- it can also be about having the right feats or item combinations that puts you far ahead of everyone else. I challenge anyone to make a better Rogue build. I can't even edit this damn page anymore because people keep doing minor edits, so now I get to respond to something else that isn't so obvious and probably should be added to the page: the Blink miss chance on your attacks doesn't apply to ranged attacks -- it's the same principle that makes Enlarge Person stuff that you drop return to normal size. Surgo 11:35, 14 July 2009 (MDT)
- If we're talking about a primarily combat rogue, Rogue 4 / Swashbuckler 16 with Daring Outlaw maybe? All the SA goodness of rogue, 19 BAB by level 20. And like you said, the build's not exactly hurting for feats. Add a level or two of Swordsage for Assassin's Stance (another +2d6 SA) and Wisdom to AC. Also 5 levels of Invisible Blade wouldn't hurt. --Ghostwheel 11:39, 14 July 2009 (MDT)
- I'd much prefer having 10 levels of Rogue so I can take Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, personally. After level 10 it's pretty much "whatever". I should probably remove the levels after 10 on this page. Surgo 11:40, 14 July 2009 (MDT)
- Yeah, might be better as a half-optimization since it's basically showing off one or two tricks (Blink, and access to epic feats by level 10--though I doubt most DMs would let that fly). --Ghostwheel 11:43, 14 July 2009 (MDT)
- Most DMs wouldn't let most optimizations fly. --Aarnott 11:46, 14 July 2009 (MDT)
- The cheesy ones? I agree--and with good reason. --Ghostwheel 13:41, 14 July 2009 (MDT)
- Could you point out where it says in the Monster Manual that "Bonus feats, unless otherwise qualified, can ignore prerequisites" when not talking about racial bonus feats? --Ghostwheel 22:12, 14 July 2009 (MDT)
- It doesn't talk about racial bonus feats. It talks about bonus feats. The word "racial" doesn't even appear. (It also happens to be the only point where bonus feats are actually defined.) Surgo 22:47, 14 July 2009 (MDT)
- Page? Didn't see it come up in the search --Ghostwheel 23:01, 14 July 2009 (MDT)
- Page is 7 (under feats, but I think you already knew that) -- the text also appears, identically, in the SRD. Surgo 23:08, 14 July 2009 (MDT)
- Wow I really have to say that is one of the most perverse interpretations of the rules I have seen so far. The text on page 7 of the MM states that if a creature has a bonus feat in its entry that it does not meet the prerequisites for it doesn't need them. It says nothing about character who gain bonus feats not having to meet them.
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Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat.
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- You do realize that Blink is nothing like Enlarge Person, Blink actually takes you to the ethereal plane not just makes you ethereal, so the miss chance is applied to all attacks including ranged attacks, since your weapons are not made ethereal they are actually on the ethereal plane.
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You “blink” back and forth between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane.
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- So this means that you don't get SA either since you don't get it any time an enemy has concealment.
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A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.....
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- Sorry but these quotes from the actual source, not just perverse interpretations, stop most of this build from doing what it is supposed to do. -Sarrow 01:01, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- One thing at a time. You'll note that the page in the MM is the only place a bonus feat is actually defined and very clearly states that you do not need to meet the prerequisites for them. End of story.
- Now, how about Blink? First of all, the statement that you don't get SA is simply nonsense. Nowhere does it say that your enemy gets concealment (and I find it quite a bit of sophistry where, despite the quoting of rules text left and right in your post, you never once quote anything that states that -- because it doesn't exist, of course, but that's beside the point). The rest is nonsense as well, but it's not as obviously nonsense. If you're under the effect of the Blink spell and you happen to be carrying a rock, then you put the rock down, the rock doesn't continue to blink -- it's nonmagical, and the blink effect is not cast on it, its cast on you and the stuff you're carrying is taken along for the ride. Same thing if you pick up the rock -- it doesn't suddenly start to blink (another fact explicitly clarified by Enlarge Person). This is why that entire line of spells have text clarifying that this is exactly what goes on -- unfortunately, they didn't clarify it for Blink. Now let's just imagine what would happen if it did work the way you propose -- drop a rock, plane shift somewhere else, and someone else dispels the rock -- and, somehow, you as well. Or grab someone, wait until you're on the ethereal plane, and drop them (which would, admittedly, be a funny and effective combat tactic). Surgo 01:31, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- You are constantly teleporting in and out of ANOTHER DIMENSION. Presumably, there are different things on that other dimension than the thing that you wish to attack. So, roughly 50% of the time, you cannot see your target. That is somewhat important when attempting to hit it. Imagine trying to shoot clay pigeons while you were blinking as rapidly as you could. You wouldn't hit anything. Also, your views on bonus feats are lying lies that lie. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm clearly specifies that you must meet the prerequisite feats to acquire the bonus feat, and is much more appropriate to Characters than the MM. Edit: I found that entry you speak of in the MM. (Most of the way down this page on the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm ). However, this clearly notes that this only applies to bonus feats for specific creatures that are marked with a superscript B. That would imply the feat is racial in nature - the entry goes on to state that, even when customizing the creature, that one bonus feat is unchanged. Because the text goes to such length to clarify WHY the creature has the feat without meeting prerequisites, I can only assume that "normal" bonus feats must also meet prerequisites, just like the Fighter. Hardcore Heathen 03:01, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- Hold on. You say he's a liar, but then provide a link that says it "clearly specifies that you must meet the prerequisites"... BUT THAT LINK DOES NO SUCH THING. Requirements aren't listed ANYWHERE on the link you provided. Surgo actually backed up his argument. You... claimed a link said something it didn't. THAT is clearly lying. Very "clever", falsely accusing someone of lying while lying yourself. In addition, your second link also doesn't say what you're claiming it does. Can you provide specific quotes, or will you just continue lying? Also, it's worth pointing out that you say the character suffers a 50% miss chance... something you pulled totally out of your ass. You then talk about "being unable to see your target", and 'different things on the other dimension other than the thing that you wish to attack". Unfortunately, the ethereal plane does not work that way. These statements are either outright lies, or giant factual errors that prove you didn't even do the most basic bit of reading on what you're commenting on, and instead are just spouting things out randomly. Which is it? Dragon Child 03:15, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- I'm not sure which link you speak of, as there are two in my comment. Perhaps you speak of Fighters. You're right, that one is unclear. I edited the link to go to the d20 SRD, which clearly states, "A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums." Or maybe you speak of the link to the MM Feat thing? "A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites." Repeated use of the word creature implies that this is a racial statistic, as does the clarification that you CANNOT change the feat. (Which implies that it is inherent to the creature's concept, which would mean inherent to its race.) Regardless, still goes to lengths to specify why you get the feat for "free." Rogue bonus feat doesn't, and seeing as it comes after the Fighter bonus feat in the PHB and given the way avoiding redundancy is nice, it seems very unlikely that you can take epic feats at level 10 without meeting prereqs. I didn't say you had a 50% miss chance, I said you couldn't see your target 50% of the time because you were on another plane of existence 50% of the time. Hardcore Heathen 03:31, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- Yes, I meant the fighter link first. Which outright didn't point to anything even CLOSE to what you were referencing, and anyone in the history can see that. I'll let Surgo handle the bit about racial feats, as he's calmer and more intelligent than I am, although I imagine he doesn't like being called a liar by someone who IS a liar. And sure, you didn't say a 50% miss chance, ok, my bad. But where the hell are you getting the "can't see the target 50% of the time" thing from? That's not how the ethereal plane works. That's outright made up. Making things up in a debate is not a good tactic. Dragon Child 03:34, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- In addition, do NOT edit my quotes again. I don't tolerate that sort of shit, especially when your very first post ever contained outright insults to one of our smartest community members. Dragon Child 03:37, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- First off, let's agree to stop indenting more; these responses are getting to be like 5 words wide :P. And my previous link was a link to this wiki. Wikis have a tendency to be innacurate; people like you and I can edit anything, so I changed it to the D20 SRD, which IS an official source document, which DOES say that you must meet the prerequisites for bonus feats. On the ethereal plane: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#theEtherealPlane would seem to say that the Ethereal Plane is really darn foggy, and your ability to see the Material Plane is very much impaired. (The Plane itself, not specific objects, mind.) One would also think momentary bursts of zero gravity would do horrible things to your balance. Hence why you have 20% miss rate, as stated in the Blink spell - it may or may not be because your attacks are Blinking; it could be because constantly dimension hopping is slightly disorienting. Furthermore, the Blink spell, unlike Enlarge Person, does not specify that objects leaving your person stop Blinking. (When did I edit your quote? If I did, it was when I was trying to make my 2nd post, which was complicated by the page having changed by the time I made the post. Looking at the page history, I don't see any section where your posts change except to reflect something that you added.) And I would think that the phrase "lying liar that lies" is clearly humorous and light-hearted, pointing out more that the interpretation is wrong than that Surgo is purposely misleading people. I don't think he's a liar. I think he's wrong. Hardcore Heathen 03:53, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
←Reverted indentation to one colon
- There was nothing about the wiki that made it "inaccurate". You picked a random link, and claimed it said something it didn't. You obviously did not read over the link you were posting as "proof". It had nothing to do with anyone editing in anything in the wiki, indeed, this wiki is a reliable source on what the SRD says. The problem was that you were just plugging in a random thing in the search, hoping it lead to what you said, and claimed that it solved the problem. My point on the ethereal plane is that it's not, and to quote you, "can't see targets 50% of the time". The 3.0 PHB shows a picture of the ethereal plane. While I'm not certain, I'm guessing the 3.5 PHB does as well. It's definitely not in the "can't see" range. Yes, it's fuzzy and indistinct, but you're making it be much worse than it actually is with your wording. It was your 9:30, 24 July edit that edited significant portions of my post. In addition, your "lying liar" thing did not come off as humorous - as someone who's new, coming into a discussion with that kind of rhetoric doesn't come off as funny, it comes off as you being extremely aggressive. Which is why I was aggressive back, especially when your links did not say what you claim they did. Dragon Child 04:11, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- In short, the question as far as the ethereal plane is concerned, could be boiled down to the question, "If you pick up a rock on the material plane, blink to the ethereal plane, and drop it, where does the rock end up?" In my opinion, Blink works by shifting you completely between planes, and allows you to transport inanimate objects with them staying on the plane where they're dropped. Thus, if one were to throw a dagger while on the ethereal plane, it would stay on that plane. However, this could be interpreted the other way, that since it left the grasp of the person who was originally blinking it returns to its normal "state" and returns to the Material Plane. I don't think that would happen, but it could easily be up to a DM's interpretation. (Note: If what I said about is true, that would only mean that thrown daggers while under the blink spell would have a 20% miss chance, since you only spend 20% of the time on the ethereal plane, as per the Blink spell. However, note that this would also be foiled by anyone under the See Invisible spell, since they'd be able to see you the whole time and wouldn't lose their dexterity bonus to AC when attacked.)
- That said, let's try to keep personal attacks out of it? There's not much point to them on an online forum where everyone's anonymous, and it's doubtful we'd say the same thing to someone to their face, so let's try to keep civil here. --Ghostwheel 03:56, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- Indeed. If it was just a poor attempt at humor, I was too harsh. However, it was not immediately apparent - indeed, the most famous (and only other) use of "lying liars" that I can think of, while humorous, IS also referring to its subjects as liars. Dragon Child 04:11, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- OK, I am not trying to start a debate here. I understand where you are coming from, I am just saying that your interpretation is off. The description of bonus feats are indeed stated as Hardcore Heathen put it:
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A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.
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- Also, I agree about the fact that the rogue bonus feat comes after the fighters. Besides the rogues doesn't state anything about not having to ignore prerequisites, which if you look at the other classes that gain bonus feats (the monk, the ranger, and the wizard) you can see that they either state that they ignore the prerequisites or like what the fighter and wizard both state that they must meet all prerequisites of bonus feats. Now for Blink, it does state that you have a miss chance to attacks:
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Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.
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- And it even states that you are on the ethereal plane 50% of the time.
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Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even attack ethereal creatures.
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- The fact that your attacks are incorporeal attacks 20% of the time mean that you can not gain sneak attack, since:
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A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack.
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Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.
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- It even states right there that in the text of Blink, that since you are going between the ethereal and material planes you are considered incorporeal 50% of the time, and incorporeal attacks against a corporeal creature has the same miss chance and negatives as those against it:
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Normally, creatures on the Ethereal Plane cannot attack creatures on the Material Plane, and vice versa.
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- The description of the ethereal plane says it straight forward. Unless you have ghost touch or some other ability similar (such as the Ninjas Ghost Strike) your attacks will miss 20%, due to the fact that the attacks are incorporeal.
- Also I never stated that the rock would continue to Blink, if anything it would stay on whatever plane you were on at the time, 50% material, 50% ethereal. So I would say that if you dropped the rock you would roll d% and determine what plane it is on. Because based on what you said if you were to Plane Shift and drop the rock it would return to the material plane, which would not happen, it would remain on what ever plane you dropped it on. The spell blink actually takes you to the ethereal plane so you are actually there and so is the rock, just like if you were to use the plane shift spell, except that you are only there for a short period of time. And if you were to pick up a rock it would start to Blink as well, since it is with you and you are traveling to the ethereal plane. Blink is not it own effect, it doesn't provide its own bonuses, it just takes you to another plane and back quickly, the bonuses you gain are because you are incorporeal part of the time. Blinking is just the term used to represent the idea of shifting between the material and ethereal planes quickly.
- About Blink being of the same line of spells as Enlarge Person, that is not true. It is a transmutation spell but it is in no way similar to Enlarge Person. As stated above Blink does not give you your own bonuses as Enlarge Person does, the spell actually doesn't give you any sorta bonus, it only has you switching between the material and ethereal planes, the bonuses are granted from the fact that you are considered incorporeal 50% of the time.
- I am sorry for so much text but you don't seem to want to accept that this build wouldn't work without some changes, so I had to pull quotes and rules from many sources. -Sarrow 13:17, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- I agree with you for the most part, except for the last part. You'd suffer a 20% miss chance on attacks (due to being on the Ethereal plane) but you would still be able to sneak attack since you only lose sneak attack if the enemy has concealment, and the 20% miss chance is due to being on a different plane, and not because you can't see the enemy clearly. (Since you can see things on the Material Plane fairly clearly from the Ethereal Plane.) But I do agree with you for the most part as far as the rest goes. --Ghostwheel 13:26, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- OK, that is true, but you don't get sneak attack against someone without a discernible anatomy and being ethereal (incorporeal) means that all creatures on the material plane are considered incorporeal to you:
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A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible, incorporeal, and utterly silent to someone on the Material Plane.
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Normally, creatures on the Ethereal Plane cannot attack creatures on the Material Plane, and vice versa.
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- So with all of this, you could say that since you are ethereal, you are also incorporeal, since you are incorporeal you can not manipulate objects on the material plane or affect them and can not attack creatures on the material plane. So since you can not attack the creatures on the material plane since to you they are the insubstancial creatures, you do not get sneak attack, since they are considered to not have a discernible anatomy to you. -Sarrow 13:41, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- You're incorporeal, so you can't manipulate objects on the material plane--that's the 20% chance. You're only actually on the ethereal plane 20% of the time. Not 50% of the time, since that comes from appearing to "blink" out of the material plane, but 20% since things that can see into the ethereal plane have only a 20% chance of missing you. The 50% chance is a combination of the concealment and the movement to the ethereal plane, not just being on the material plane, which accounts for 20% of the time. (Sorry if I'm being redundant, beginning to fade as it's pretty late where I am currently.) The lack of concealment is from the text here where it says, "The Material Plane itself is visible from the Ethereal Plane..." (Since it doesn't give any mechanical penalties to vision, creatures on the material plane gain no concealment.) --Ghostwheel 13:47, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- OK, at first I said concealment, then I realized I was mistaken when I thought that all miss chances are considered concealment. I then started talking about the fact that when you are on the ethereal plane all material objects and enemies are considered insubstancial. (the reason you can't attack them or manipulate them, and you pass right through them) Insubstancial means that they don't have discernible anatomies, which means you don't get sneak attack. Now this could easily be solved with ghost touch weapons or the gauntlets of ghost fighting. (MIC page 216; part of the Wraith's Woe set)
- Also Blink does states that you are on the ethereal plane 50% of the time:
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Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane...
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- Half means 50%. -Sarrow 14:40, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- If it's half... then why do your attacks while under the Blink spell miss only 20% of the time? If it was truly half, they should miss 50% of the time, and people, even under the effect of See Invisibility, should still miss you 50% of the time. The "about half" is flavor. Mechanically, it's 20%. --Ghostwheel 14:44, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- It could be because your whole turn is not spent on a single attack. You also move or make additional attacks. The 20% miss chance is per attack, now if it were only on their 20% of the time it would be 20% miss chance divided between all attacks made. And this doesn't count moving into as well, which some of that movement is spend in the ethereal plane. So if you have three attacks you actually have 60% per attack to hit so you would have only about a 22% chance to hit with all attacks, and a 36% chance to hit with two out of three. -Sarrow 14:52, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- Sarrow. Your logic appears to be "If you are on the ethereal plane, you are incorporeal", and "Rogues cannot sneak attack incorporeal creatures", correct? Great. Now, provide a source that says that a blinking rogue treats other people as if they were incorporeal. An incorporeal rogue is still allowed to sneak attack, something you're claiming is not true using very twisted logic that has obvious holes in it. You keep stating a premise that the conclusions do not accurately back up. In addition, blink has actual rules on if you are or are not allowed to attack creatures on the material plane. For you to suggest a blinking creature cannot attack creatures on the material plane is an outright houserule, and has no purpose in this discussion. Dragon Child 16:18, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- Seems like everybody else has taken over for me just fine, but it also appears that the fact that ethereal and incorporeal are two different words that mean two different things in Dungeons and Dragons.
- On the Blink matter? Sure. But I think just about everyone agrees that you couldn't get Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (which isn't even a 3.5 feat, but a 3.0 one) with the rogue's level 10 bonus feat ability, since the MM explanation of bonus feat applies to racial bonus feats which are automatically received as part of one's race, and thus don't need to have their prerequisites filled. That, and you'd still suffer a 20% miss chance while blinking. --Ghostwheel 20:27, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- "(which isn't even a 3.5 feat, but a 3.0 one)" So? --TK-Squared 20:40, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- I know many DMs who consider 3.0 material broken (mostly due to what Haste was back in the day), and treat it as though it was Homebrew material as far as allowing stuff from it, is what I meant. --Ghostwheel 20:54, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- Not only do you not suffer a 20% miss chance for ranged weapons, which I and others already went over extensively, but the Epic Level Handbook was updated for 3.5 when it was included in the 3.5 SRD. Surgo 20:56, 24 July 2009 (MDT)
- seriously, it says right there on the page of blink that you suffer a 20% miss chance... i mean, you ready your weapon, aim, and oops you're on the wrong plane, sorry mate
- I'm with Ghostwheel on this one, I don't see anywhere that it says blink doesn't affect ranged attacks, I'd also like to point out that in the Epic Level Handbook it specifies that you MUST meet all prerequisites for epic feats or you lose the benefit of the feat. And if you say that a character can get Perfect Two Weapon Fighting with the rogue special ability show me a npc character that has a feat that they don't qualify for. Also the 20% miss chance is equivalent to concealment so technically yes you could say opponents have concealment against you while blink is in effect. --PixieDragon 07:22, 14 October 2010 (MDT)
- No. Blink specifically says that your miss chance is due to sometimes phasing out right as you strike, not due to concealment. You can see the enemy perfectly and can line up a strike, but your weapon may sometimes phase out at an inconvenient moment. They do not have concealment to you, but you do have a penalty which is part of what concealment inflicts. The justification for Blink not applying to ranged weapons is Blink has to affect your equipment, even if it doesn't actually say so. Otherwise you leave behind a pile of clothes and armor and can't use even a melee weapon you're holding since you're now ethereal about half the time and you'd have to use unarmed strikes while you're Blinked. I doubt you'd rule that way, would you? But Blink doesn't have any guidelines for how to handle things that you drop/leave your possession, so the nearest rule for that is Enlarge Person, which states items that leave your possession are no longer affected by the magic. That, at the very least, is a consistent interpretation of the rules for transmutation spells, that transmuted things which leave your possession stop being affected by the magic. With Blink, it happens to be a beneficial feature of the D&D physics. --Genowhirl 10:32, 14 October 2010 (MDT)
Well, I had to make a house ruling, and the description in the Manual of Planes of the Ethereal Plane mentions moving stone blocks onto the Ethereal Plane and leaving them there (to block access to a building on the Material Plane), which implies that things transported to that plane and dropped there stay there, and that they stay exactly where you left them (relative to the Material Plane. So I am quite confident that arrows fired on the ethereal plane stay there, and so any ranged attacks made from a blinking character have a 20% miss chance, just like spells. It's not sensible to give such a massive advantage to ranged attacks. It also means that unattended objects (such as an opponent's dropped weapon, NOT one an enemy is still holding) can be dropped on the ethereal plane after a blinking character picks them up (with the same 20% chance of letting go at the wrong moment and the object staying on the Material Plane). 76.65.7.40 16:47, 29 December 2010 (MST)