Talk:Lancer (3.5e Class)

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Knowledge

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Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because Pole arms are not focused on allot in games I regularly play in as a main weapon, theirs not allot of options out there for pole arms. As well the jumping seems useless in a dungeon with only an 8 foot ceiling. --Ikri 20:21, 3 March 2008 (MST)

This rating has been nullified rating since the class has been changed since it was given. --Green Dragon 19:29, 13 March 2008 (MDT)

Wording - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because It was summarized well and to the point I managed to have most things worked out, the only issue I had was with falling damage, as well as a few issues with description on abilities and if your jumping damage was carried over as a charge attack or a cumulating 1d6 per 10ft. --Ikri 20:21, 3 March 2008 (MST)

This rating has been nullified rating since the class has been changed since it was given. --Green Dragon 19:29, 13 March 2008 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because It was well organized and set up (not sure what exactly their asking here 5 out of 5 though loved the class.) --Ikri 20:21, 3 March 2008 (MST)

This rating has been nullified rating since the class has been changed since it was given. --Green Dragon 19:29, 13 March 2008 (MDT)

Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because It is a brilliantly set up and prepared class I use it myself as one my main PCs, however the similarity to the Final Fantasy's Dragoon is uncanny. I'm aware it was most likely modeled after this and think that it was very well done. --Ikri 20:21, 3 March 2008 (MST)

This user is no longer an active contributor to this site. Please feel free to adopt this class as your own. --Green Dragon 13:56, 4 March 2008 (MST)

This rating has been nullified rating since the class has been changed since it was given. --Green Dragon 19:29, 13 March 2008 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because the class seems noticeably underpowered. There seems to very little reason to stay in the class after 10th level. Besides the fact that 11th is the first truly dead level, and that there are few new abilities gained beyond 10th, the few new abilities that are gained from 12 onward are too focused on dealing with dragons. Furthermore, the jump ability seems to lack purpose. In Final Fantasy, the Jump ability allowed you to deal a hugely powerful strike (albeit only while using spears) while at the same time avoid most attacks. Here, it has no real mechanical benefit. Dragon health at first is significantly better group healing than other (if any) alternatives, but its utter lack of scaling renders it outdone by the mass cure/heal line, making it better for out-of-battle healing. As written, dragon power is absurdly broken, as it has no duration and it can stack with itself. Even if it couldn't stack with itself, the bonuses can still get quite out of hand.

I would suggest a gradual progression of Dragon Health, say at 1d10 at fifth level, and +1d10 at each three levels (8, 11, 14, 17, 20). Additionally, I would allow the Lancer to add his charisma modifier and level to the healing value. Make the uses per day equal to say, +1/five levels (10, 15, 20) rather than based on Charisma. That's approximately 60 hp per healing for a 20th level lancer with a +7 Charisma mod.

Jumping should give some scaling bonus to damage, accuracy, and/or AC. However, the bonus to damage should only apply if the lancer is using a spear of some sort, else it would invalidate the point of the class. I would personally prefer it dragon armor provided Damage Reduction instead of an AC bonus, as the lancer in my mind from Final Fantasy Tactics was one of the sturdiest classes out there.

Dragon resistance and dragon defenses, if they must be kept, ought to be introduced far earlier on in the progression (L1 and L2 respectively), as they scale with level.

I would suggest a "double jump" ability later on, so as to encourage charging jump attacks as the dragoon gains more swings from full attack. The double Jump could also allow the Lancer to change targets or direction in mid-flight, similar to the Fleet of Foot feat. --Finfreeze 00:26, 4 March 2008 (MST)

This rating has been nullified rating since the class has been changed since it was given. --Green Dragon 19:30, 13 March 2008 (MDT)

Wording - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because while generally understandable, there are several details missing as well as a few awkwardly written descriptions (notably the Dragon Senses ability). Some abilities, such as dragon spirit, do not make note of what action they use. In Dragon spirit's case, a little more detail is also needed to verify—one way or another—that this ability can be used to save a character who has been brought down below -10 hp. It is also unclear whether Dragon Power can be used in quick succession to pump ability scores to absurd levels, and no duration is given. The progression of the dragon gained by dragon loyalty is vague, especially since wyrmlings of non-epic dragons are much too small to serve as mounts for most races. It supposedly levels up as 'normal', but also follows the special mount rules, which seem to be at odds with one another. Furthermore, the dragon cohort in the DMG increases power solely by 'aging'.

Besides that, the spelling mistakes are minor, and all I'd want to do is split the Charisma bonus to saves from the dragon viscus ability for clarity's sake. --Finfreeze 00:26, 4 March 2008 (MST)

This rating has been nullified rating since the class has been changed since it was given. --Green Dragon 19:30, 13 March 2008 (MDT)

Formatting - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because it does have the minimum tables and is otherwise readable. However, some work could be done to spell out the bonuses gained per level from the dragon armor ability in the main table. A breath weapon progression should probably be listed in another table, and so could the advancement of the dragon companion. The double use of the colon and unusual capitalization of Su/Sp/Ex/etc. are a bit jarring, though.

The rules on dragons and the code of conduct could stand to be broken off into their own sections to make them stand out more from the rest of the text. --Finfreeze 00:26, 4 March 2008 (MST)

This rating has been nullified rating since the class has been changed since it was given. --Green Dragon 19:30, 13 March 2008 (MDT)

Flavor - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because it covers all of the bases of the Final Fantasy dragoon archetype: it has a dragon companion, it uses spears, it's a heavy warrior, and the class can jump well. It could use some expansion, but it is unmistakably a dragoon. --Finfreeze 00:26, 4 March 2008 (MST)

This user is no longer an active contributor to this site. Please feel free to adopt this class as your own. --Green Dragon 00:36, 4 March 2008 (MST)

First off I would like to thank Ikri for his comments. And would like to say that some of the questions you asked are answered below. Also if you want more rules for pole arms, feats for them, and other things to make them better you should look at the Dragon Compendium Volume 1 by the creators of Dragon Magazine. And the jumping is for all directions and yes the verticle jump would be useless in an 8 ft. tall dungeon but any where else it would be fine and can add a little flavor if you add some home rules to it. It is really up to the DM.

OK, so Finfreeze here is some answers to some of your statements:

"the few new abilities that are gained from 12 onward are too focused on dealing with dragons."

• Well here all I have to say is that the purpose for this class is to deal with dragons. If you wanted something less dragon based then choose another class or change some of the features to work a little better for what you had in mind.

"Furthermore, the jump ability seems to lack purpose. In Final Fantasy, the Jump ability allowed you to deal a hugely powerful strike (albeit only while using spears) while at the same time avoid most attacks. Here, it has no real mechanical benefit."

• OK I do admit that I sorta spaced on what I really was doing when I was writing this part, I forgot to include that when using a spear or pole arm you double all strength based damage. Also that you do not suffer the -2 to AC for charging. And that a Lancer takes no falling damage for the listed distances.

"Dragon health at first is significantly better group healing than other (if any) alternatives, but its utter lack of scaling renders it outdone by the mass cure/heal line, making it better for out-of-battle healing."

• This was just suposed to help, not replace a Cleric or Healer. If you wanted better healing you should have been a class that focuses on healing rather than assisting allies and damaging enemies. I also forgot to write that it is a swift action to activate that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Additionally, I would allow the Lancer to add his charisma modifier and level to the healing value.

• I have taken this into consideration and have decided that you add your lancer level to the amount healed.

"As written, dragon power is absurdly broken, as it has no duration and it can stack with itself. Even if it couldn't stack with itself, the bonuses can still get quite out of hand."

• Yes I did write it a bit odd. It does not stack with it self and can only have one effect at a time so if you increase your strength then use it again to increase your dexterity, the original increase goes away. I have also forgot to include the duration.

"I would personally prefer it dragon armor provided Damage Reduction instead of an AC bonus, as the lancer in my mind from Final Fantasy Tactics was one of the sturdiest classes out there."

• This was my logic. If you have DR5 against dragons then you reduce damage by five, where as if you have a +5 to AC then you will get hit less and take less damage over all.

"Dragon resistance and dragon defenses, if they must be kept, ought to be introduced far earlier on in the progression (L1 and L2 respectively), as they scale with level."

• I have moved dragon resistance to a lower level and changed dragon defenses to give DR/-

"I would suggest a "double jump" ability later on, so as to encourage charging jump attacks as the dragoon gains more swings from full attack. The double Jump could also allow the Lancer to change targets or direction in mid-flight, similar to the Fleet of Foot feat."

• This is not a bad idea. I will see where I can fit it in.

"there are several details missing as well as a few awkwardly written descriptions (notably the Dragon Senses ability)."

• I hope that I have cleared up some of the confusion here.

"Some abilities, such as dragon spirit, do not make note of what action they use. In Dragon spirit's case, a little more detail is also needed to verify—one way or another—that this ability can be used to save a character who has been brought down below -10 hp."

• I have made some changes to clarify the rules on the dragon spirit ability.

"The progression of the dragon gained by dragon loyalty is vague, especially since wyrmlings of non-epic dragons are much too small to serve as mounts for most races. It supposedly levels up as 'normal', but also follows the special mount rules, which seem to be at odds with one another. Furthermore, the dragon cohort in the DMG increases power solely by 'aging'."

• Here what I was trying to do was that you can select your dragon and that the progression of each dragon is different. So there is no set advancment. What I don't understand is the confusion of the paladins mount ability. But to clarify I have added the intended rules into the abilities desription and changed some things to clarify any quesetions.

"all I'd want to do is split the Charisma bonus to saves from the dragon viscus ability for clarity's sake."

• With this I am not sure exactly what you are saying but if you are saying that you would change it so that it only affects one save, cause if this is the case than would you change the paladins ability that is the same.

"However, some work could be done to spell out the bonuses gained per level from the dragon armor ability in the main table. A breath weapon progression should probably be listed in another table, and so could the advancement of the dragon companion."

• I am working on adding the dragon armor, defenses, and breath weapon to the main table. As I said before about the dragon companion is that it is different for each dragon. The stronger the base dragon the longer it takes to get it and the abilities are different.

"The rules on dragons and the code of conduct could stand to be broken off into their own sections to make them stand out more from the rest of the text."

• This is true and I will work on it.

"I give this class a 3 out of 5 because it covers all of the bases of the Final Fantasy dragoon archetype: it has a dragon companion, it uses spears, it's a heavy warrior, and the class can jump well. It could use some expansion, but it is unmistakably a dragoon."

• Thank you, I was intending to model it after the Dragoon from FFT and Freya from FF9, with some differences to make it its own. If you would like to give me some suggestions on how to expand and possibly make it easier to play than be welcome and do so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sarrow (talk • contribs) 14:03, 13 March 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

This rating has been nullified rating since the class has been changed since it was given. --Green Dragon 19:30, 13 March 2008 (MDT)

Small Annoyance

I'm just making a note about a fix to that wacky IP edit (I'm talking to you 4+Int Skill points guy on a martial class, tsk tsk), just in case it happens again, and as another note on that topic, that guy should really take a look at Character Class Design Guidelines before he goes tinkering around. --Ganteka 22:20, 7 September 2008 (MDT)

There's really nothing wrong with anything + int skill points on a martial class if it's meant for them to have it. That said, if it wasn't, that's a really dumb edit to make. Surgo 06:09, 8 September 2008 (MDT)

Yeah, especially for this class, I designed it with low skill points for a reason, Balance. On another note, I am glad that people are still looking at this class, LOL, I have also created two other classes and if anyone would like to look at them they are the Dark Knight and the Stalker. --Sarrow 23:40, 8 September 2008 (MDT)

Rating

Power - <<<2>>>/5 I give this class a <<<2>>> out of 5 because <<<Dragon Spirit and Dragon Viscus are WAY overpowered as they are. Dragon Spirit should be changed to something like Paladin's "Lay on hands", based on Cons, that can only be used on the lancer him/herself. Dragon Viscus should have a daily limit (maybe the Draconic Resilience bonus, so a lvl 20 Lancer would be able to use it 5 times a day). Also, changing the active resilience should take at least an entire turn.>>> --201.6.17.57 00:17, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Wording - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --201.6.17.57 00:17, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Formatting - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --201.6.17.57 00:17, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Flavor - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>> out of 5 because <<<it is indeed a very interesting class. I myself am using one, with the changes I stated on the "Power" item.>>> --201.6.17.57 00:17, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it features the connection to dragons prevalent in some of the games. I recommend Ride: Exotic as a class skill. --69.171.174.148 05:14, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is dynamic and interesting.

5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5

Flavor -4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because It's a great class. --69.171.174.148 05:14, 15 August 2010 (UTC)