Talk:Kitsune (5e Race)

Please update the following:

|trait1=Kitsune Truesight
|description1=Due to your magical heritage, you have the ability to see the world as it really is. At level 1 you can see normally in magical or non-magical darkness out to 30 feet as if the area was in bright light. At level 3, when you are within 10 feet of a visual illusion you automatically detect their true nature and succeed on saving throws against them. Also, within 10 feet you determine the true form of a shapechanger or a creature transformed by magic. At level 15, when you are within 10 feet of an invisible creature or a magically hidden door or object, you can see them. At level 20, double the range of all of your Kitsune Truesight abilities.
|trait2= Kitsune Trickery
|description2=You can appear as a human indefinitely using a very simple illusion magic. However, on a DC 10 + proficiency bonus + Charisma Modifier Investigation check, a person looking directly at you can tell that you are not what you appear, though they still cannot tell your true form. This magic is detectable and dispelled in an anti-magic field or by dispel magic (your character level divided by 2 rounded down is the level of this spell for the sake of dispel magic). If your illusion is dispelled you cannot use the effect again until after a long rest.

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|trait1=Kitsune Truesight
|description1= Due to your magical heritage, you have the ability to see the world as it really is. You see in darkness out to 60 feet. Additionally, as an action you may begin concentration on using Kitsune Truesight to enhance it's effects out to 30 feet. While concentrating on this effect you may forgo your movement or expend an action to gain the ability to see in magical darkness, gain advantage on saving throws against visual illusions and gain advantage on Investigation rolls to determine the nature of a shapechanged creature.
|trait2= Kitsune Trickery
|description2=You can appear as a human indefinitely using illusion magic. Using this effect costs an action. This magic is detectable and dispelled in an antimagic field or by dispel magic (your character level, divided by 2, rounded down is the level of this spell for the sake of dispel magic). If your illusion is dispelled you cannot use the effect again until after a long rest.

Thanks! --Seraphim Rush (talk) 02:46, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Also, it has been a long time, but to answer a question: I chose Sylvan because the Kitsune lived out in the woods with Fey and other such magical creatures in the setting I had them in!

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Right okay this is balanced I think,but having a free magic attack is a little BS imho, as while yeah other classes have cantrips, none are damaging cantrips. My personal suggestion is either keep produce flame but have it like dragonborn breath attack feature (once per short rest) or replace it with a non damaging cantrip and do a spell progression lime tieflings and Aasimar have. It seems good but I still think people should recognize a kitsune as a kitsune if they beat its disguise check. Other than that I'd allow it in my campaigns now, good work cleaning it up. Sorry if I was a bit vicious but the people I know who played kitsune were obnoxious Mary sues who just complained about how they couldn't break 5e to piss off their allies by stealing from them.

Thanks buddy for bringing this to my attention! The class has been corrected back to where it should have been. As all of the other races it was supposed to give +2 to a single stat, and +1 to another stat as a subrace. The templates I used for the creation of this race were the Aasimar and Tiefling races. They are intended to have Produce Flame cantrip, with blue fire instead of normal fire (a dead give away if they are trying to hide with their trickery). Their Spell like ability still costs an action to do... no special effects without an ability, feat, or item that says otherwise. The Kitsune Trickery ability they have is not able to let them shapeshift into whatever human from they desire, it only hides their ears and tail(s). So if you were to commit a crime with the Trickery active you couldn't use it to hide because you can't change your shape or appearance with it. Additionally, it was specifically designed so that low level characters and non-caster's would not be able to tell that you are a Kitsune, let me reiterate that it has a striking limitation that you appear as a human version of yourself without fox ears and a fox tail or tails. --Seraphim Rush (talk) 22:01, 21 June 2016 (MDT)

A racial skill would be handy. Animal handling and arcade or religion come to mind. ====

This race is entirely broken, any DM dumb enough to allow it deserves to have their campaign ruined. Why is it broken? This is 5e, not BS 3.5. All subraces get +3 to all stats when not hiding their identity? There's fourth level spells that do less. Since none in the PHB get more than a +2 to a single stat, that's way too much. Kistune flame? I don't know where to start. Dealing 2d6 at 1st level? That's the damage of one of the best 5e weapons! The greatsword. "Oh but it's magic lol," Nope, doesn't matter. A wizard at lv 1 can't consistently deal that. 12d8 as a free action and getting to use whatever ability score you want? That's outright beyond level 7 spells. You do this at will. At least pretend to have modeled this after a real race and see the dragon born racial damage. Racial disguise is broken, because having a passive disguise self up is literally more powerful than a class feature (Eldritch Invocation Mask of Shadows). The fact that beating it's stupidly high DC (10+prof. +modifier is greater than any caster DC) doesn't even let you recognize you're looking at a Kistune means that you don't even have to do...well...anything. Even on a fail you're automatically better off than a caster actively disguising themselves. But you clearly never meant to balance this. So see the summary.

What are the celestial/demonic damage types? Did you mean radiant and necrotic? SirSprinkles (talk) 18:31, 21 June 2016 (MDT)

A few changes needed here.

I'll start off by saying I'm not exactly a furry fan but that isn't at all related to why I'm about to release a critical analysis to your race here: The motive if your interested is that a player is about to pick up this race which is obviously broken. The DM is fairly new to 5e so he isn't aware of what breaks 5e yet and has let this thing in. Now that isn't to say this doesn't have potential... it does which is why I'm posting this criticism:

A lot of things here have been corrected to work with 5e I'm talking about the version that exists as of 5/28/2017. This version has a few glaring issues but for balance sake you need to revisit the passive true sight. I get that you tried to balance the issue with true sight by dividing it up across levels but just from 1st level this race regardless of the class is beyond that of nearly every creature in the MM much less other vanilla races.

There are technically some playable creatures that are just as broken that are official such as the winged Aasmir, winged Teifling and Arackoa but any 5e DM worth their salt knows how to balance them. With your true sight feature what you've done is given a path progression to a PC that makes them equivilent to Planetars, Coutals, Demilichs, Balors, Glabrezus, Marileths, Erinyess, Pit Fiends, Empyrean and so on which is in 5e the equivalent of being nearly a demi-god.

Philosophy and Solution: So from 3rd level a kitsune makes weird which is a crappy spell on its own pointless... and that's a 9th level spell. Mirage Arcane? Pointless... this again is a feature only legendary entities and those close to that level should have but these guys have it from 3rd level automatically when the nearest spell equivalent is a 6th level spell which consumes a 6th level spell slot to use. And no see invisibility does not let automatically save against Mirage arcane, and essentially every illusion that could have even been lethal... this is a lot for 5e and detect magic wont let you see through an illusion only that illusion magic is being used.

The best thing you can do is look at the 5e rules and methods again, passives tend to tie into a resource that is limited or involve a dice roll. You'd be much better if the True Sight ability instead granted advantage on saves of that nature rather than auto succeeding. In fact saying illusions is WAY to broad and it should be limited to illusion spells of up to 5th spell level.

And even then this looks like something that should be in a class not a race.

If I were to redo that portion it would read the following way:

Kitsune Truesight. Due to your magical heritage, you have the ability to see the world as it really is. At first level you gain dark vision out to 60 feet and your saves against illusion spells are at advantage. From third level as an action you can see in magical darkness out to 30 feet for 1 hour while concentrating on this trait, this feature may be used once per long rest. From 13th level while concentrating on this feature, as a reaction if you investigate for the true nature of any visual illusion the DC is reduced by 5 this adjustment also applies to discerning the true nature of shapechangers and magically transformed creatures. At level 20, your Kitsune Truesight abilities now have a duration of 8 hours with no concentration requirement.

Other small issue: You made this race but didn't once mention anything about the Feywild or Faeries at all but in the languages you have Sylvan... why? I'd figure celestial or abyssal/infernal since you said tieflings and aasimar.

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Why does Kitsune's random weight range from 75 to 600 lbs? 600lbs seems extremely excessive.

That is not how the calculation works... It is calculated by rolling the dice for height, and then you roll the die for weight. For instance if I roll 2d8 and get 3 inches for height, then 1d8 and get for 4 weight then, the character is 4'8" tall and weighs 87 pounds.

The Tag part of categories can be removed and replaced with Category:Anthropomorphic, meaning that they are covered in fur.--Blobby383b (talk) 18:34, 1 August 2017 (MDT)

Possible additions to fall in line with the race.

I was thinking that since they are a fox-like race shouldn't they have, Keen Senses Much like the foxes they resemble, kitsunes have heightened senses. You are proficient in the Perception skill. Also maybe to incorporate their background as a race the same ability that elves receive. Fey Ancestry. Your fey lineage gives you advantage on saving throws against being charmed. Magic cannot put you to sleep.

I'm fairly new to the game but feel those changes would fit nicely into the feel of the race without breaking them. Thoughts?

DarkDragoon63 (talk) 15:49, 1 September 2017 (MDT)DarkDragoon63

Balance Concern

How is granting a race truesight in this capacity comparatively balanced when looking at other first party races and their racial traits? I can see a case being made that the scalar nature of the trait being substantially broken down and granted over 20 level making this "ok" but I'm not comfortable with such a strong, out of a standard trait being granted to a race given the "anti-fun" and generally limited nature of truesight. Could someone shed some light on this? --ConcealedLight (talk) 05:53, 16 April 2018 (MDT)

Race Broken with Kitsune Ear

Having talked with my DM we have come to the conclusion that the Kitsune Ear is not only overpowered but by in large game breaking when it comes to dealing with most of the modules out there. Knowing every time when someone is lying just breaks the game when a DM is trying to set up a bad guy.

Thinking it over I was wondering why even have that, if Kitsune are tricksters they would know how to trick people not know lies. Secondly I was wondering why is their illusion only Human? Why can't I be elf, or dwarf as my disguise. So I propose removing the ears and changing the illusion just slightly.

Kitsune Trickery. Having a society full of mischievous tricksters, Kitsune learn deception from a very early age. This makes Kitsune some of the best fibbers in the world. They receive double proficiency bonus in their deception skill.
Hidden Society. Having a whole race disappear is amazing but not hard due to bit of magic that every Kitsune is born with. This magic gives them the ability to have an illusionary alter ego. At puberty a Kitsune is able to take the appearance of another race. The race must be of medium size and the Kitsune must have a reason to choose something other than human. (example: A group of orcs have moved in near a Kitsune settlement. In order to protect their home some of the Kitsune have taken upon Orc as their illusionary mask.) The Kitsune can alter their appearance indefinitely using a very simple illusion magic, you cannot change or alter your illusionary self without a special ceremony performed by a group of Kitsune Elders. A creature looking directly at you can make an Intelligence (Investigation) check, to tell that you are not what you appear to be, though they still cannot perceive your true form. The DC for this check is equal to 10 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier. This magic is detectable by spells such as detect magic and dispelled in an antimagic field or by a successful dispel magic. Your profiency bonus is consider the level of the spell for the sake of dispel magic. If your illusion is dispelled you cannot use the effect again until after a long rest.

Changing your illusion is meant to be difficult and require time, and expensive ingredients. Ingredients include a small jade replica (worth 1000gp) of the race you wish to change your illusion to. Along with a small piece of organic material from the race you are choosing to change too. (a locket of hair, a bone fragment, a piece of flesh are all acceptable). The ceremony must be conducted by 5 elder Kitsune and takes several days to complete. Afterwards it will take several days of reconditioning for the Kitsune to be fully able to use their new disguise.
This is the compromise we have come up with to allow Kitsune in our game. I Present this for your consideration. PS Otherwise good job on the Kitsune I love the idea of this trickster race.

I will reply in full once the day is out. —ConcealedLight (talk) 19:07, 23 August 2018 (MDT)

Thank you but I just took up reworking the page after finding its contents particularly questionable. As for your purpose of being here, the trait is based off the devas Divine Awareness ability, and I believe it is hinting at the kitsunes divine heritage they apparently have in the history of our world. Though I think this was kept out of the lore here to give Dungeon Master's freedom of choice. As for the Kitsune Ears, they are indeed quite strong and while there are clearly limitations to their ability and how a dungeon master can work around them I've made an edit to take down the absolution of such a trait. Creatures under compulsion or charm, who believe they are telling the truth and those protected by magic are immune. Glad you enjoyed playing the race. —ConcealedLight (talk) 12:46, 24 August 2018 (MDT)

Image Needed tag

I'm confused why an image hasn't been added... There's tons of art for this subject out there. An admin who could edit under the lock could add it.--Yanied (talk) 22:02, 22 September 2019 (MDT)

Proficiency Table

There isn't a proficiency table either?

Proficiency table is for classes, unless you mean something else.--Yanied (talk) 07:12, 10 January 2020 (MST)

Unarmed Strike?

You state that kitsune have humanoid hands, but they have black claws at the end, which makes sense, but I feel like they should have an unarmed strike similar to a tabaxi's cat claws, unless that is something that has been addressed before.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shadowspirit90 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

It's not a very prevalent feature of theirs, given the emphasis instead on illusions. Like, a lot of races arguably should have more natural weapons by merit of their design (lizardfolk should have tail and bite, kenku should have beak attacks, etc.), but that doesn't add to their unique design, so it was left out.--Yanied (talk) 10:06, 31 May 2021 (MDT)