Talk:Gestalt Knifefighter (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

Authors Comment

Well, here it is, this is the first Gestalt Optimization posted here, and my first contribution to the Wiki. I have linked everything SRD, and i think i followed the formatting guidelines. If anyone has anything to add to this, please discuss it first, unless it is a minor edit for grammar or formating. Thanks for reading my first contribution! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ganre (talk • contribs) 03:24, 4 May 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

Ummm.... I like this, but it's not pure gestalt. The gestalt stops at 9th level. Don't any more rouge levels get added on? --Sir Milo Teabag 21:09, 4 May 2008 (MDT)

D'oh, editing error, fixing now, yes, rogue goes all the way to 20(on of the limitations in the game i played him in, one base class must be kept through-out the entire progression) --Ganre 22:22, 4 May 2008 (MDT)

Problems

You shouldn't get the extra +2 bonus to Fortitude save at 2nd level; only .5 (by the Fractional Saves/BAB rules, you only get the +2 once). Siosilvar 09:35, 5 August 2008 (MDT)

Fixed that, thanks for noting it. --Ganre 21:22, 24 August 2008 (MDT)

Some more gestalt ideas

As soon as i read unearthed arcana's rules on gestalt characters, my mind has been ablaze with all sorts of class combinations. my group made a couple house rules about this:

1. when starting out, races with level adjustments apply the adjustment to one class at a time, not both. Example: half-giant psychic warrior/ardent (lvl adj +1) would be just a psy war1 at 1st lvl, then a psy war2/ard1 at 2nd lvl. one player in the group was addicted to powerful races so this made him happy.

1.a. the idea of taking racial levels to make up for racial level adjustments was thrown out.

2. the rule about only having one prestige class at a time was thrown out. this made things a little crazy but also much more interesting.

3. previously banned prestige classes (e.g. ones that give bonus caster lvls in two classes at the same time) are available but they take up an entire gestalt level by themselves.

4. another house rule was that bonus caster lvls can't raise beyond the character's CL. i think that's already an official rule but i have to stress this one. my players and i didn't understand the difference between CL and ECL at first. level adjustments exist for a reason, folks.

the result is pretty much uber-gestalt, but i compensate by making serious opponents gestalt as well. a copy of "Grimtooth's Traps" can also be helpful. anyway, on with the character ideas. a lot of these sample characters use psionics. they are all 16th level. i usually make all my gestalt characters take a level of either rogue or scout at first level to benefit from their massive skill list/points. the ref bonus and evasion/uncanny dodge is nice too.

how about a character that is not only incorporeal but has infinite power points, can ignore infinite damage, and can teleport via minds? race: elan psion (kinetecist) 5 rogue 1 ardent 5 metamind 10 psion uncarnate 10 ectopic adept 1

details: high will saves, ardent psionics and granted abilities, manifester level reduction, low fort and ref saves, fragile hp. on the other hand, mundane physical attacks can be totally ignored; elan resilience with Font of Power (metamind) enables the character to ignore INFINITE DAMAGE for one minute per day, and elan resistance can help with low saves. and the POSSIBILITIES, oh lord the possibilities...

the ultimate shapechanging combatant race: killoren druid 5 scout 1 ardent 10 master of forms 10 warshaper 5 holt warden 5

details: all saves are high, lots of hp, ardent psionics and granted abilities, druid caster lvl 10th, communicate and cast spells while shapechanged, can be anything from dimunitive to gargantuan and any creature type except outsiders and undead (yes, DRAGONS are ok), immune to criticals and stunning, fast healing 2, change forms as many times as you want for 24 hours, bonus str and con, extra reach and larger natural weapons, and benefit from the extraordinary qualities/attacks of any form. also can heal self or groups of people every day as the Heal spell.

necromancer/field general race: illumian (vaul-naen) wizard 5 rogue 1 cleric 4 master of shrouds 10 pale master 10 nightmare spinner 1

details: high will saves, low fort and ref saves, low hp, can sacrifice cleric spells to cast wizard spells of same lvl twice per day, rebuke undead as 14th lvl cleric, summon nasty incorporeal undead (shadows, wraiths, spectres, greater shadows, dread wraiths) 9 times a day, free animate dead once per day, can command up to (3 x lvl) HD of undead, summoned/created undead are tougher and more damaging than normal, debilitating touch attacks, darkvision 60 ft, control undead with a touch (no save), almost all undead qualities, 13th cleric and 15th wiz caster lvl, immune to fear, and reduced arcane failure with undead armor.

ranged support that doesn't worry about ammo race: synad soulknife 13 ranger 4 soulbow 10 psychic warrior 5

details: all saves are high, lots of hp, never worry about ammo or being unarmed, darkvision 60 ft, distracting shot (player's handbook 2) anybody shot by him is considered flanked for the rest of the round, total feats = 20(!), variable weapon qualities, expend psionic focus to fire phase arrow, and can inflict damage to int, wis or chr. this build is a godsend for anyone with sneak attack abilities, such as...

spellthief with some mobility race: neraphim scout 5 psychic warrior 2 spellthief 15 elocator 10

low fort saves, high ref and will saves, hp a little better than a rogue, special racial ability to sneak attack opponents, sneak attack and skirmish dmg, spellthief awesomness (including stealing spells up to 7th lvl, power points, energy resistance and spell resistance, and absorbing spells after a successful save), float/move above any solid or liquid surface, opportunistic strike +6, flank opponents from variable positions, psionic teleport and planeshift, extra 5 ft step each round, dimension door spring attack, accelerated action (haste for 10 rounds per day?)

manipulator of shadows with bard abilities, counterspelling, and access to wizard spells race: spellscale shadowcaster 5 rogue 2 bard 8 sublime chord 7 noctumancer 10

details: high fort and will saves, ref saves almost as high, low hp, darkvision 30 ft, area effect dmg (untyped) equal to perform checks, retain spell lvls when counterspelling and dispelling, disrupt caster lvl of spellcasters, gain temporary immunity to spells successfully counterspelled/dispelled, access to wizard spells 4th lvl and higher, and supernatural and spell-like shadow abilities.

little knife-fighting backstabbing bastard race: whisper gnome lurk 13 rogue 4 ebon saint 5 swashbuckler 3 invisible blade 5 psychic warrior 2

details: high fort and ref saves, somewhat lower will saves, better hp than rogue, low light vision and darkvision 60 ft, racial ability to silence enemies with melee attack (no save) 8 times per day with Extra Silence feat, racial and class bonuses to hide/move silently, lurk augments, mental interrogation/impersonation with dire strike augments, extra melee dmg (Int) from swashbuckler, extra AC and sneak attack dmg with daggers (+9d6 dmg total), uncanny feint as free action. basically, sneak attack heaven.

hippie "earth-mother" spellcaster that can share spells with non-spellcasters race: dream dwarf cleric 5 wizard 5 geomancer 10 earth dreamer 5 runesmith 5

details: high fort and will saves, low ref saves, hp slightly better than a rogue, darkvision 90 ft, turn undead/air creatures, heavy armor and shield proficiency, no arcane spell failure from armor, geomancer drifts (spin webs, breathe underwater, scent 30 ft, full attack charge, fly speed 60 ft, run 10 times speed once per hour), tremorsense 10 ft, see through earth/stone 30 ft at will, travel through earth/stone at will, "give" up to 4 spells to companions, 15th cleric and 15th wizard caster lvl, and "runed" wiz spells require no somatic components.

meanest monk ever; this build is debatedly illegal, depending on whether a monk's unarmed fighting qualifies for the soul eater prestige class. if so, this build is otherwise totally "ordinary" gestalt legal. here's an example: race: synad monk 15 scout 2 ardent 5 soul eater 10

details: obviously, all saves are high, hp same as cleric, improved evasion, uncanny dodge, darkvision 60 ft, spell resistance, immune to disease/poison, ardent psionics and granted abilities, greater flurry of blows, unarmed attack inflicts 2 NEGATIVE LVLS, ranged force touch attack once per day, str, dex and con enhancement after draining lvls, steal person's appearance after draining lvls completely, drained creatures rise as wights under my control, all supernatural and spell-like abilities gain +2 DC after draining lvls and can be used twice as often as usual, and combines "Dimension Hop" power/Sun School feat and Combat Reflexes/Karmic Strike/Defensive Sweep feat combos for level-draining carnage. what a mean SOB.

so this shows a little of what is possible when character options are opened up even further under gestalt rules. any more character ideas?

I think your post demonstrates exactly why you should use restraint with Gestalt. People who walk your first path(metaMind, infinte power points) can use leadership/affinity field/syncronicity for unlimited actions per round. This allows them pretty much pour out enough dispels/death affects/damage/ability damage to kill anything that can be killed. This is hardly an isolated incident. Running a group with that level of power is frustrating to say the least as a DM. --Ganre 17:13, 16 November 2010 (MST)

i don't have my books handy at the moment, so i have to ask: what kinds of powers are affinity field and synchronicity? i agree that powerful characters can be a problem, but there are always ways to compensate. i like the uber gestalt variant because it allows players to tweak their character concepts with cool class combinations., not because of impossible power levels. also, anytime some class feature ends up being overpowering, the player should consult the dm for a ruling. an un-dm-able character is worse than a weak one because it imbalances the game, and by default cannot be allowed. a little pre-game conference usually straightens things out.

[SRD:Affinity Field|Affinity Field], syncronicity, and [SRD:Bestow Power|Bestow Power](works best with font of power, unlimited powerpoints for 1 minute, Metamind presitge class). With Syncronicity, you use a standard action to ready an action later in the round. Affinity field causes your friend/follow to gain the belefit as well. He has and extra standard action now. Buddy manifests Syncronicity twice, you now have 3 actions, and because he is gaining the benefit, so does he. You use your actions(and unlimited power points) to Bestow an unlimited ammount of power points on him, and he keeps casting syncronicity with all his actions. When you have enough actions saved up....well, i think you get the point here. It's completely broken, and when you start using Gestalt, the manifester gets his full manifester level, which makes this trick incredibly cheap. there are ways to do this without a friend, as well. --Ganre 08:54, 18 November 2010 (MST)

thanks for explaining that to me ganre. that's a crazy combo, but it seems to me that it's broken whether or not you're running gestalt. obviously this is an oversight by the writers and should probably be treated as such. my metamind/uncarnate build ignores this trick and just concentrates on being ghostly and setting things on fire for free. the 1st ed DMG has some ideas on how to deal with game breaking characters/problems, like wishing for more wishes and so forth. it's also important to realize that the rules are there to balance the game, not provide players with unrealistic strategies. i will sometimes make rulings that have nothing to do with the rules but everything to do with keeping things sufficiently realistic. -superturkle