Talk:Gestalt (5e Variant Rule)

OK I think I covered it all... written from memory of notes I left at work. If anyone sees any aspects of class-combining that I forgot, just say so, I probably just forgot a point or two. --Kydo (talk) 19:22, 19 December 2015 (MST)

Oh, also, my test runs of this rule consist of me trying to break the game through a solo-run of the Tyranny of Dragons Adventurer's League Expeditions modules. The test runs were made with: Aarakocra Monk/Sorcerer, Hill Dwarf Fighter/Ranger, and Lightfoot Halfling Barbarian/Rogue. Because my tests focused on optimized builds, it is possible that the doubled XP thresholds may be too severe for a more typical character, leaving them straining to keep their HP up in heavier fights as the campaign difficulty ramps up. That said, the Aarakocra "Monkerer" wiped out 6 goblins in 3 rounds without taking any damage at 1st level. (The 0 damage had a bit of random luck behind it, but it still happened) --Kydo (talk) 00:55, 20 December 2015 (MST)

Extra attack and fighting styles.

I love this variant rule idea and will be using it in an upcoming campaign, however I have two small issues. First, Extra Attacks don't stack. Through no other rule in 5e can you gain multiple instances of extra attack. Second, Multiple instances of Fighting style are not duplicates, as you can for instance multi-class fighter/ranger and pick 2 different fighting styles, that if you are smart with your choices you can gain both benefits at the same time. A good example, from fighter you can take defense and from ranger take dueling, go sword and board and get the +2 to damage and the ability to use your reaction to use your shield to impose disadvantage on attacks vs an adjacent ally. I would strongly recommend swapping those two features in the rule, I don't want to do it myself, as it is effectively a home-brew rule. I will be implementing this change in my use of this rule in my upcoming home-brew campaign.

By "can stack", I mean, "Are just a named number that can be added together". --Kydo (talk) 05:31, 15 February 2018 (MST)

ASIs

You should clarify whether the halved ASIs are both applied or whether they’re supposed to give some semblance of balance to this ruleset (I know it’s not supposed to be fully balanced).

Do you gain an ASI from both classes and each ASI is halved in their functionality? Level 4 Warlock/Paladin has 2 ASIs that each only can increase 1 ability score by 1 and you can trade in 2 ASIs to get a feat? Effectively, this makes ASIs function as normal? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.17.249.226 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Correct. — Geodude (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 14:05, 5 April 2021 (MDT)

Saving Throw Proficiencies

I think the rules for combining saving throw proficiencies could be better. Here's the original:

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Proficiencies

You gain the armor, weapon, tool, and saving throw proficiencies of both classes.

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Since saving throw proficiencies are so important, this places a huge incentives and counter-incentives on certain starting class combinations. Some combinations yield 4 proficiencies, while others get only 2 or 3.

This penalises flavourful characters that combine two alike classes in order to specialise into a concept, while arbitrarily rewarding other combinations. It's arguably worth it even if the rest of the character never uses the dip class's 1st level features.

Some examples:

- Ranger + Rogue = Strength, Dexterity, and Intelligence. 3 total.

- Cleric + Druid = Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. 3 total.

- Fighter + Barbarian = Strength and Constitution. 2 total.

- Fighter + Paladin = Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma. 4 total.

Saving Throw Proficiencies (Improved):

Proficiencies

You gain the armor, weapon, tool, and saving throw proficiencies of both classes. If both classes share a saving throw proficiency, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any saving throw you make that uses that saving throw proficiency.

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This provides a more meaningful choice: specialisation vs overall coverage. Characters with wider saving throw proficiencies are less vulnerable overall, but don't get the expertise.

The change fits with the flavour and story of the class combinations. The character will shrug off just about anything targeting their specialisation, but remain vulnerable in their areas of weakness.

And yes, I'm aware that (at the time of writing) nothing else in the game currently grants expertise in a saving throw. If anything should, I think that it would be a specialised gestalt.

The earlier examples, with the proposed update:

- Ranger + Rogue = Strength, Dexterity+, and Intelligence. 1 expertise, 2 other proficiencies.

- Cleric + Druid = Intelligence, Wisdom+, and Charisma. 1 expertise, 2 other proficiencies.

- Fighter + Barbarian = Strength+ and Constitution+. 2 expertise, but no other proficiencies.

- Fighter + Paladin = Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma. No expertise, but 4 proficiencies.

Saving Throw Proficiencies (Improved, Variant)

Proficiencies

You gain the armor, weapon, tool, and saving throw proficiencies of both classes. If both classes share a saving throw proficiency, you have advantage on that saving throw.

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This provides an alternate solution: advantage vs overall coverage. Characters with wider saving throw proficiencies are less vulnerable overall, but don't have advantage.

The earlier examples, with the variant proposal.

- Ranger + Rogue = Strength, Dexterity, and Intelligence. 3 proficiencies, 1 advantage.

- Cleric + Druid = Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. 3 proficiencies, 1 advantage.

- Fighter + Barbarian = Strength, and Constitution. 2 proficiencies, 2 advantages.

- Fighter + Paladin = Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma. 4 proficiencies, no advantages. --Magnetin Darkwind (talk) 16:35, 10 May 2022 (MDT)